The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Mar 20, 2015 14:34:31 GMT -5
Let's imagine this scenario for a minute.
Your 17yo daughter is at her first "grown up" party. She's never had alcohol other than with her family. In order to "fit in" she has a few beers and before the 100 pound waif realizes what's going on some guy is on top of her.
She is sure she doesn't remember saying yes. The guy is 19 and sober as a stone. He knew she was drunk but was sure she just wanted to have a good time, after all - she had a few drinks - right?
So tell me, who is ok with this scenario? Who HONESTLY believes she got what she had coming?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 14:35:01 GMT -5
I actually think I understand what Later means. A man intentionally plying a woman with drinks in the hopes that she'll lose her inhibitions and do things she might not do with him if she were sober. I actually agree with her that that is wrong, because he had bad intentions from the beginning.
But I also know how to turn down drinks and have no problem doing so. Knowing when to stop (or not even start) drinking is where I take care to avoid potentially bad situations, whether it ends up being something criminal or just something I regret doing.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 14:35:03 GMT -5
And that is why I will never label myself a feminist...I prefer to accept responsibility for my actions rather than blame some stupid guy for "preying on my stupid little self"....
So you don't even think it is possible to get someone drunk? That anyone that drinks more than they realise, or is sensible, when being provided with free alcohol is stupid? No I don't. I can tell when I am getting a buzz so I make a conscious decision to either quit drinking or throw caution to the wind and get a full on drunk going.
I never said that getting drunk was stupid. I have done in MANY, MANY times. And I have made MANY stupid decisions (lol...I'm enjoying all of my caps!) when drunk. What I have NEVER done was blame some schmuck for getting me drunk.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 20, 2015 14:35:22 GMT -5
And that is why I will never label myself a feminist...I prefer to accept responsibility for my actions rather than blame some stupid guy for "preying on my stupid little self"....
So you don't even think it is possible to get someone drunk? That anyone that drinks more than they realise, or is sensible, when being provided with free alcohol is stupid? irresponsible, definitely.
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The Captain
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Hugs are good...
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Post by The Captain on Mar 20, 2015 14:36:04 GMT -5
Real case: Bar tender gives a girl drinks, she's having a bad day, and he wants to "make her feel better." Makes them about 3/4 times stronger than a usual bar drinks. She has about 4 drinks that he gives her, so more like 12. A guy sitting at the bar makes some comment about "what are you trying to do, dude, kill her?"
She gets all sloppy drunk. Takes her up to the apartment above the bar. Attempts to have sex with her. He gets charged with rape.
Is he guilty of rape, or did she consent because she voluntarily drank what he gave her? Is there any doubt in your mind, because I'm as clear as crystal?
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Mar 20, 2015 14:36:11 GMT -5
Anyone who reads that story from Occidental College and calls it a gray area is fucking crazy. She snuck out of her room and into his to have sex with him. After being pulled off the guy by her friends, and was asked three times while having intercourse with him if she was alright, responding yes each time. If there's rape at all in that story, which I don't think there is, she's the rapist. I agree with you on that one. That's not rape, that's a drunken hookup with regrets. But there a million shades of behavior between the two extremes, and we should talk to both our sons and daughters about boundaries, sex, drinking, and drunk sex.
Bad cases make bad laws.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 20, 2015 14:37:10 GMT -5
I actually think I understand what Later means. A man intentionally plying a woman with drinks in the hopes that she'll lose her inhibitions and do things she might not do with him if she were sober. I actually agree with her that that is wrong, because he had bad intentions from the beginning. But I also know how to turn down drinks and have no problem doing so. Knowing when to stop (or not even start) drinking is where I take care to avoid potentially bad situations, whether it ends up being something criminal or just something I regret doing. YES x 1000000!!!!!! I think that's what most of us have been saying!!!!
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 14:38:00 GMT -5
Real case: Bar tender gives a girl drinks, she's having a bad day, and he wants to "make her feel better." Makes them about 3/4 times stronger than a usual bar drinks. She has about 4 drinks that he gives her, so more like 12. A guy sitting at the bar makes some comment about "what are you trying to do, dude, kill her?"
She gets all sloppy drunk. Takes her up to the apartment above the bar. Attempts to have sex with her. He gets charged with rape.
Is he guilty of rape, or did she consent because she voluntarily drank what he gave her? I would put that into the category of slipping a drug she was not aware of into her drink. So yes, that would be rape to me.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 14:38:36 GMT -5
Real case: Bar tender gives a girl drinks, she's having a bad day, and he wants to "make her feel better." Makes them about 3/4 times stronger than a usual bar drinks. She has about 4 drinks that he gives her, so more like 12. A guy sitting at the bar makes some comment about "what are you trying to do, dude, kill her?"
She gets all sloppy drunk. Takes her up to the apartment above the bar. Attempts to have sex with her. He gets charged with rape.
Is he guilty of rape, or did she consent because she voluntarily drank what he gave her? Regardless of how strong the drinks were, she knew she was getting drunk. And I can tell a super strong drink compared to a normal drink...it tastes like I'm downing a shot.
I never want someone to claim that I am too stupid to control my behavior just because I'm some silly little female. And quite honestly, it blows my mind how many women on here are basically saying that. I'm guessing a large majority have gone drunk a few times in our lives...can you honestly tell me that you can't tell when you are going from buzzed to drunk?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 20, 2015 14:39:33 GMT -5
Real case: Bar tender gives a girl drinks, she's having a bad day, and he wants to "make her feel better." Makes them about 3/4 times stronger than a usual bar drinks. She has about 4 drinks that he gives her, so more like 12. A guy sitting at the bar makes some comment about "what are you trying to do, dude, kill her?"
She gets all sloppy drunk. Takes her up to the apartment above the bar. Attempts to have sex with her. He gets charged with rape.
Is he guilty of rape, or did she consent because she voluntarily drank what he gave her? That's horrible and the bartender is definitely a predator for doing that. But after the first drink was that strong, I wouldn't be having 3 more of them - that's for sure!
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Mar 20, 2015 14:40:32 GMT -5
Girl is hanging out with friends that she trusts. One friend is going to the kitchen to make another drink and offers to make her one, not a move out of the ordinary. Girl wakes up early the next day without memory of the rest of the night but it feels like something did happen. Real life scenario.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 14:42:17 GMT -5
Real case: Bar tender gives a girl drinks, she's having a bad day, and he wants to "make her feel better." Makes them about 3/4 times stronger than a usual bar drinks. She has about 4 drinks that he gives her, so more like 12. A guy sitting at the bar makes some comment about "what are you trying to do, dude, kill her?"
She gets all sloppy drunk. Takes her up to the apartment above the bar. Attempts to have sex with her. He gets charged with rape.
Is he guilty of rape, or did she consent because she voluntarily drank what he gave her? That's horrible and the bartender is definitely a predator for doing that. But after the first drink was that strong, I wouldn't be having 3 more of them - that's for sure! that's what I'm saying...I can tell a super strong drink from a normal drink. Ive even told bartenders to put my mix in drinks because they tasted like a shot. Sometimes the bartenders make them super strong for tips...I just get pissed because if I wanted a shot I would have ordered a shot!
Ooh...here is a thought...following this logic, if the bartender makes my drinks super strong in hopes that I would get drunk and tip way beyond what I normally would, is that some kind of theft? I'm clearly not able to make informed decisions about how much to tip at that point.....
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Mar 20, 2015 14:42:18 GMT -5
How so? Are you saying a person's self-control or limit on alcohol consumption is controlled by their wallet and whether they're paying for their drinks or not?
Even at parties or things like corporate social events where free liquor was flowing, I didn't find that a reason or excuse to take advantage of the free booze and then drink more than I normally would.
If a person gets themselves wasted and then agrees to hop in the sack with someone it's not a wise choice, but it also isn't the same as being raped/having someone force themselves on you without consent.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 14:42:38 GMT -5
Can men buying drinks for or providing alcohol for women have bad intentions... YES.
Is the act of buying a drink for a woman or providing alcohol at a party tantamount to wanting to rape someone, or setting them up to be raped.... NO.
Does being drunk give someone the right to force you into doing something you don't want to do... absolutely not.
Does being drunk free you from the responsibility of your own actions... including consenting to sex you might not have had were you not drunk... absolutely not.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 14:43:05 GMT -5
Girl is hanging out with friends that she trusts. One friend is going to the kitchen to make another drink and offers to make her one, not a move out of the ordinary. Girl wakes up early the next day without memory of the rest of the night but it feels like something did happen. Real life scenario. That sounds like she was slipped a roofie and that would be rape...unless friend went and make 12 drinks and the girl willingly took them.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 20, 2015 14:43:14 GMT -5
Girl is hanging out with friends that she trusts. One friend is going to the kitchen to make another drink and offers to make her one, not a move out of the ordinary. Girl wakes up early the next day without memory of the rest of the night but it feels like something did happen. she was obviously drugged - definitely a rape or rape-like violation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 14:43:57 GMT -5
It's not about being too stupid to control your behaviour. It's about it being permissible for someone to try to prey on you and it being your fault if they succeed. I do not consider it weak to say that it is not permissible for anyone to try to prey on people then say it's their own fault for being too stupid to avoid it.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 20, 2015 14:43:59 GMT -5
Later, are you suggesting that a person can go out and drink whatever they want and have no responsibility for what they do while drinking? only if the drinker is a woman. I don't think Later is saying that. I do believe most posters think that is what she believes, hence here we are.
Could I get a man drunker than he intended to be? I think yes. If I topped the drinks up when he wasn't looking, made sure the alcohol was stronger than he asked for or disguised it in a drink he thought was non-alcoholic, this and more would work. Should I blame him for the top ups of the drinks because he wasn't watching his drink every second he was with me or might it be my fault/responsibility if I used sleight of hand or a momentary turn of the head to refresh his drink?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 14:44:09 GMT -5
How so? Are you saying a person's self-control or limit on alcohol consumption is controlled by their wallet and whether they're paying for their drinks or not?
Even at parties or things like corporate social events where free liquor was flowing, I didn't find that a reason or excuse to take advantage of the free booze and then drink more than I normally would.
If a person gets themselves wasted and then agrees to hop in the sack with someone it's not a wise choice, but it also isn't the same as being raped/having someone force themselves on you without consent. I rarely say this...but I agree with SL....so far this week I have agreed with both Dark AND SL...what the hell is happening to me??
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 20, 2015 14:45:43 GMT -5
Anyone who reads that story from Occidental College and calls it a gray area is fucking crazy. She snuck out of her room and into his to have sex with him. After being pulled off the guy by her friends, and was asked three times while having intercourse with him if she was alright, responding yes each time. If there's rape at all in that story, which I don't think there is, she's the rapist. Was there one poster that said she was raped and he wasn't? I think I missed that.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Mar 20, 2015 14:46:04 GMT -5
No drugging involved. It is possible to give someone a drink full of more alcohol than they realize.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 14:46:29 GMT -5
Regardless of how strong the drinks were, she knew she was getting drunk. And I can tell a super strong drink compared to a normal drink...it tastes like I'm downing a shot.
I never want someone to claim that I am too stupid to control my behavior just because I'm some silly little female. And quite honestly, it blows my mind how many women on here are basically saying that. I'm guessing a large majority have gone drunk a few times in our lives...can you honestly tell me that you can't tell when you are going from buzzed to drunk?
I'll be honest, I've had drunk sneak up on me quicker than expected at times. But I knew enough to stop at that point. I totally have, too...we don't make reference to my "martini incident" for nothing! Martinis are basically straight f'n alcohol and to be honest, hit me harder and quicker than I ever thought...and yes, if I weren't married at that time I very easily could have made a very, very bad decision...but that would not have been rape. That would have been a drunken 40 year old making a very bad decision!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 14:47:03 GMT -5
That alone should tell you you're on the devil's side.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 14:47:06 GMT -5
No drugging involved. It is possible to give someone a drink full of more alcohol than they realize. I don't know about that...one drink shouldn't make a person black out for the night. I would suspect drugs.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 14:47:22 GMT -5
I rarely say this...but I agree with SL....so far this week I have agreed with both Dark AND SL...what the hell is happening to me?? That's ok I think me and oped are on the same side of this conversation as well. If I'm not mistaken this might be a first LOL!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 14:47:36 GMT -5
Its what come from having both daughters and sons...
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 14:48:26 GMT -5
It's not about being too stupid to control your behaviour. It's about it being permissible for someone to try to prey on you and it being your fault if they succeed. I do not consider it weak to say that it is not permissible for anyone to try to prey on people then say it's their own fault for being too stupid to avoid it. But they CAN avoid it! Don't drink the damn drinks! Seriously...why is that such a hard concept? If a drink is offered and you accept it, you have made a conscious decision.
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Mar 20, 2015 14:48:56 GMT -5
Real case: Bar tender gives a girl drinks, she's having a bad day, and he wants to "make her feel better." Makes them about 3/4 times stronger than a usual bar drinks. She has about 4 drinks that he gives her, so more like 12. A guy sitting at the bar makes some comment about "what are you trying to do, dude, kill her?"
She gets all sloppy drunk. Takes her up to the apartment above the bar. Attempts to have sex with her. He gets charged with rape.
Is he guilty of rape, or did she consent because she voluntarily drank what he gave her? Who's taking her up.. the bartender or the guy sitting in the bar? ETA.. I'm not sure it will change my answer, but I'm curious. bartender.
bar fly actually called cops when he figured out what was going on.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Mar 20, 2015 14:49:06 GMT -5
No drugging involved. It is possible to give someone a drink full of more alcohol than they realize. I don't know about that...one drink shouldn't make a person black out for the night. I would suspect drugs. Well, I know about that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 14:52:09 GMT -5
So.
1) Guy 1 gives girl drinks so that he can more easily sneak up on her later, throw her down, tie her up and rape her.
2) Guy 2 gives girl drinks because he thinks she is attractive and they are in a social setting like a bar or party, they go home together and she has sex with him, even though she might not have, had she not been drinking so much.
Same thing in your book then?
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