The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Mar 20, 2015 13:02:24 GMT -5
I'm trying to be as careful as I can be when typing this, not because I don't think you can understand, but because I know this is a trigger for some and I'm honestly not trying to do that. The notion that one person has the right to take advantage of someone who is not in full control of their facilities is something I find abhorrent at a very primal level. The fact that someone may have voluntarily gotten themselves to that state is 100% irrelevant! Yes, I will teach my daughter not to make herself vulnerable, but anyone who takes advantage of someone who is vulnerable is a predator, plain and simple. By saying that the person who was taken advantage allowed themselves to get to that state is putting the blame for the predator on them, and that is wrong. Yes, just like the theft example you want to take provisions to protect yourself, but that does NOT give anyone permission to have sex with you when you can't clearly give consent. Just like forgetting to lock your car doesn't give someone permission to steal it. The fact that the mother of two daughters doesn't get this is, as I stated, part of the problem. I read that as you saying if you allow yourself to get drunk then you deserve whatever shit happens to you. Nope, no way, not ever! I specifically asked if it way ok for a sober person to have sex with someone who was too drunk to give consent, you were fine with it. That's what I'm responding to. I agree that it is irrelevant how someone got to the vulnerable stage. and yes, it is 100% wrong to take advantage of anyone in a vulnerable position. However! Is it just as wrong to accept a "yes" from a person in a vulnerable position? If you think "yes," please explain. As a side note - a drunk person can not enter into a legally binding contract. Should we be taking it a step further? If the person in the vulnerable position is not under coercion and is capable of giving consent, then yes - I think it's ok to accept a yes. Just like I would think it's wrong for someone to demand sex from someone in exchange for (fill in the blank - food, money, housing) just because they need it. Not sure I'm making sense here.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 13:08:16 GMT -5
No. I am asking who you perceive to be too incompetent to make their own decision of whether to consume that which is being supplied by a person with bad intentions. What does it matter? Why would it ever be okay to try to do that to someone? Why would it be okay to accept the drinks?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 20, 2015 13:08:48 GMT -5
Just like I would think it's wrong for someone to demand sex from someone in exchange for (fill in the blank - food, money, housing) just because they need it.
Not sure I'm making sense here
I get it. My HS sweetheart kept informing me that we were going to have sex on prom night, b/c that is what you get in exchange for taking the girl to prom.
He got a not so polite answer in response. All the guys in high school talked about how they were going to get laid on prom night. It was a HUGE deal. That was what you were owed b/c you took the girl to dinner and bought her a corsage. It was a given to them that their dates would be happy to have sex in exchange for "the prom".
My body is not something that you can purchase with some pretty flowers and a dance. My body is MY body and you don't get to assume you have free access to it and that I somehow "owe" it to you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 13:09:45 GMT -5
What does it matter? Why would it ever be okay to try to do that to someone? Why would it be okay to accept the drinks? I don't understand your point.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 13:15:04 GMT -5
Why would it be okay to accept the drinks? I don't understand your point. Are you really arguing that getting someone drunk to take advantage of them is okay if they accept the drink? Are we going to call that The Bill Cosby Defense?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 20, 2015 13:20:42 GMT -5
I don't understand your point. Are you really arguing that getting someone drunk to take advantage of them is okay if they accept the drink? Are we going to call that The Bill Cosby Defense? I don't think he's saying it's okay. I don't think ANYONE's been saying it's okay. I think he's saying that both parties should take measures to ensure their safety and well-being. Maybe he's not saying that, but that's what I've been saying. It's nothing to do with "deserving" anything - it's about the fact that people can be assholes so why put your safety in the hands of another person whose intentions are unclear?
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Mar 20, 2015 13:20:51 GMT -5
Just like I would think it's wrong for someone to demand sex from someone in exchange for (fill in the blank - food, money, housing) just because they need it.
Not sure I'm making sense here
I get it. My HS sweetheart kept informing me that we were going to have sex on prom night, b/c that is what you get in exchange for taking the girl to prom.
He got a not so polite answer in response. All the guys in high school talked about how they were going to get laid on prom night. It was a HUGE deal. That was what you were owed b/c you took the girl to dinner and bought her a corsage. It was a given to them that their dates would be happy to have sex in exchange for "the prom".
My body is not something that you can purchase with some pretty flowers and a dance. My body is MY body and you don't get to assume you have free access to it and that I somehow "owe" it to you.
I am so glad the guy I dated through HS was more of a gentleman. Sorry you had to deal with that shit.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 20, 2015 13:28:14 GMT -5
Sorry you had to deal with that shit.
It goes back to what Milee was talking about and discussing these things with boys.
He's not a sociopath of any sort and is overall a decent guy. I don't think he recognized he was attempting to pressure/coerce me to do something I may not want to do, after all EVERYONE wants to do it on prom night, right? He was totally shocked when I came after him guns blazing. It was the talk of the entire male junior/senior population. So it wasn't just my boyfriend who was expecting to get lucky that night.
That is the troubling thing to me, it was a cultural/societal expectation that "prom night" automatically means you get to deflower your girlfriend. Not a single one of them stopped to think that they were crossing over a line by assuming they had the right to their girlfriend's body in exchange for going to a dumb dance. I often wonder how many girls did things they didn't want to do b/c they felt they "had to" on prom night.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 13:29:47 GMT -5
Are you really arguing that getting someone drunk to take advantage of them is okay if they accept the drink? Are we going to call that The Bill Cosby Defense? I don't think he's saying it's okay. I don't think ANYONE's been saying it's okay. I think he's saying that both parties should take measures to ensure their safety and well-being. Maybe he's not saying that, but that's what I've been saying. It's nothing to do with "deserving" anything - it's about the fact that people can be assholes so why put your safety in the hands of another person whose intentions are unclear? So am I supposed to stop saying people should be held accountable if they purposely provide copious amounts of alcohol to someone with the intent of taking advantage of them?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 20, 2015 13:32:41 GMT -5
What does it matter? Why would it ever be okay to try to do that to someone? Why would it be okay to accept the drinks? We as a society have decided that sometimes bar patrons can not make informed decisions on whether they should have another drink or not, so we allow, perhaps even require by law that a bartender cuts them off. This is because we believe as a society these people put others at risk because they go driving and sometimes kill or injure folks that are not them.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Mar 20, 2015 13:34:54 GMT -5
So a person who has too much to drink and drives is responsible for their actions and can be held accountable - even if drunk to the point of blackout A person who has too much to drink is not responsible or able to give consent- therefore cannot be held responsible for saying yes at the time of intoxication A person that has had too much to drink can have sex and be guilty of rape even if the other party says yes at the time A drunk person has to be able to gauge the level of intoxication in another person before having sex with them Do I have this straight? The only correct decision a drunk person can make is 'go home and go to bed alone without endangering anyone else'
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 20, 2015 13:35:14 GMT -5
I don't think he's saying it's okay. I don't think ANYONE's been saying it's okay. I think he's saying that both parties should take measures to ensure their safety and well-being. Maybe he's not saying that, but that's what I've been saying. It's nothing to do with "deserving" anything - it's about the fact that people can be assholes so why put your safety in the hands of another person whose intentions are unclear? So am I supposed to stop saying people should be held accountable if they purposely provide copious amounts of alcohol to someone with the intent of taking advantage of them? Are you reading something other that what I typed? Because if you're not, you are adding WAY more than is necessary to what I said. What I said was IMO pretty straightforward, so I'm curious as to how you're pulling all that from my two paragraphs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 13:36:15 GMT -5
So am I supposed to stop saying people should be held accountable if they purposely provide copious amounts of alcohol to someone with the intent of taking advantage of them? Are you reading something other that what I typed? Because if you're not, you are adding WAY more than is necessary to what I said. What I said was IMO pretty straightforward, so I'm curious as to how you're pulling all that from my two paragraphs. Then what am I saying that you disagree with?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 20, 2015 13:37:45 GMT -5
So a person who has too much to drink and drives is responsible for their actions and can be held accountable - even if drunk to the point of blackout A person who has too much to drink is not responsible or able to give consent- therefore cannot be held responsible for saying yes at the time of intoxication A person that has had too much to drink can have sex and be guilty of rape even if the other party says yes at the time A drunk person has to be able to gauge the level of intoxication in another person before having sex with them Do I have this straight? The only correct decision a drunk person can make is 'go home and go to bed alone without endangering anyone else' But find a way to get home without driving. And make sure someone else is at least present in case you forget to sleep on your stomach and choke on your own vomit. But you have to trust with 100% certainty that that person won't take advantage of you in your weakened state....
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justme
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Post by justme on Mar 20, 2015 13:40:26 GMT -5
So a person who has too much to drink and drives is responsible for their actions and can be held accountable - even if drunk to the point of blackout A person who has too much to drink is not responsible or able to give consent- therefore cannot be held responsible for saying yes at the time of intoxication A person that has had too much to drink can have sex and be guilty of rape even if the other party says yes at the time A drunk person has to be able to gauge the level of intoxication in another person before having sex with them Do I have this straight? A drunk person takes an ACTION of driving while drunk. A drunk person DOES NOT take the action of raping themselves. That's the freaking difference. A drunk person driving or punching someone is taking an action, and a bad one, and should be held responsible and blamed for it. A person that's raped is taking no part in the action of rape and therefore has no responsibility. Period. Zero. Zilch.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Mar 20, 2015 13:42:21 GMT -5
I haven't. I'm a nerd though. I've never had a one-night stand or sex with a stranger either. I'm trying to decide what I really think about this drunken sex and rape thing. I know that if a man decides a woman is easy pickings because she's obviously inebriated, I'd consider that taking advantage of her..... rape. But an adult male and adult female hanging out together, both drinking and they both willingly participate in whatever activity occurs betweent them, I'm not sure I'm ok with one deciding later that the other raped them. I guess I'm hung up on them both being inebriated and there being no coersion. If my friend and I get drunk and we decide to go rob a bank or something, I participate in the robbery and at no point decide "ummm...... I changed my mind, I don't want any part of this", am I any less responsible for my actions just because I was drunk? Do I get to blame my friend for it all because I was drunk, even though he was drunk too? I know it's not the same thing, just trying to sort my thoughts about it. One sober person and one drunk person is different (to me) than 2 drunk people both actively particpating without being coerced or persuaded. I'm with you on this, Pink. The story as presented by the quote dark put up is not what I'd consider sexual assault. Why was a charge made? and why was it advanced through the system - is there something not presented in the article? Or is this a miscarriage of justice? As it is stated there - I don't see a crime. LInk to the full article. I wasn't sure how much I could post and not have copyright issues. www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2015/02/drunk_sex_on_campus_universities_are_struggling_to_determine_when_intoxicated.html
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 20, 2015 13:42:36 GMT -5
So a person who has too much to drink and drives is responsible for their actions and can be held accountable - even if drunk to the point of blackout we as a society hold them responsible for choosing to drive, however we have added laws to stop serving alcohol to people as one way to mitigate this issue.A person who has too much to drink is not responsible or able to give consent- therefore cannot be held responsible for saying yes at the time of intoxication Imo yes, we should define a level at which this is true for anyone - female, male, trans, basically anyone of legal age to drink A person that has had too much to drink can have sex and be guilty of rape even if the other party says yes at the time maybe, not enough information. Other person sober, drunk, ?A drunk person has to be able to gauge the level of intoxication in another person before having sex with them Like we have to gauge whether we are safe to drive and not legally intoxicated I do believe we could do the same for rape. It hopefully would cut down on that gray area of drunken sex most assume are not really rapes. Like driving some will still risk it and some might pay for that decision.Do I have this straight? I know you are not asking me, but I'll answer anyway. Like anything we as a society draw lines based on the consequences so very often things are not fair or even. Kids or males do not get quizzed on the stand about what they were wearing in rape trial but a female victim probably will be.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 20, 2015 13:43:35 GMT -5
Are you reading something other that what I typed? Because if you're not, you are adding WAY more than is necessary to what I said. What I said was IMO pretty straightforward, so I'm curious as to how you're pulling all that from my two paragraphs. Then what am I saying that you disagree with? you said: and I'm wondering why you would ask that in response to my post. If you've been reading any of my posts, I haven't said anything close to "don't hold the bad drink makers responsible since the drinkers didn't have to drink them". Is there some sort of script running in here that causes "everyone should take responsibility for their actions and personal safety" to read "well, you deserve to be taken advantage of if you let your guard down"? They are not the same, regardless of how much you apparently want them to be.
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justme
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Post by justme on Mar 20, 2015 13:43:43 GMT -5
A drunk person takes an ACTION of driving while drunk. A drunk person DOES NOT take the action of raping themselves. That's the freaking different. A drunk person driving or punching someone is taking an action, and a bad one, and should be held responsible and blamed for it. A person that's raped is taking no part for the action of rape and therefore has no responsibility. Period. Zero. Zilch. So you didn't read the little story about jack and jane. A drunk person can say "YES" and encourage the sexual act, while intoxicated. So in essence they are taking action. I've stated several times that if people are equally drunk than it's not rape. So that case is mute to any argument I've made. Also, saying yes is not an action.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 13:46:37 GMT -5
I don't think he's saying it's okay. I don't think ANYONE's been saying it's okay. I think he's saying that both parties should take measures to ensure their safety and well-being. Maybe he's not saying that, but that's what I've been saying. It's nothing to do with "deserving" anything - it's about the fact that people can be assholes so why put your safety in the hands of another person whose intentions are unclear? So am I supposed to stop saying people should be held accountable if they purposely provide copious amounts of alcohol to someone with the intent of taking advantage of them? You are supposed to stop suggesting that the only person liable is the one providing the drinks, and that the one drinking them has no responsibility.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 13:46:40 GMT -5
I don't think he's saying it's okay. I don't think ANYONE's been saying it's okay. I think he's saying that both parties should take measures to ensure their safety and well-being. Maybe he's not saying that, but that's what I've been saying. It's nothing to do with "deserving" anything - it's about the fact that people can be assholes so why put your safety in the hands of another person whose intentions are unclear? So am I supposed to stop saying people should be held accountable if they purposely provide copious amounts of alcohol to someone with the intent of taking advantage of them? I don't get this attitude. You are making women sound like stupid creatures who couldn't possibly know when to stop drinking. I was a stupid teen...I got shit faced on more than one occasion...and maybe there were guys there handing me drinks with the purpose being to get me shit faced and see if I would have sex with them...but at the end of the day, unless they are pouring the shit down my throat then I made a conscious decision to drink myself to oblivion. Not a smart choice but I am one to accept responsibility for my actions and not blame those "evil guys" for getting me drunk.
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justme
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Post by justme on Mar 20, 2015 13:47:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the grammar lesson, you need to talk with autocorrect.
And I'm over arguing with you. If you think there's no way for a drunk person to be raped then well I guess that's what you think.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 13:47:49 GMT -5
So a person who has too much to drink and drives is responsible for their actions and can be held accountable - even if drunk to the point of blackout A person who has too much to drink is not responsible or able to give consent- therefore cannot be held responsible for saying yes at the time of intoxication A person that has had too much to drink can have sex and be guilty of rape even if the other party says yes at the time A drunk person has to be able to gauge the level of intoxication in another person before having sex with them Do I have this straight? A drunk person takes an ACTION of driving while drunk. A drunk person DOES NOT take the action of raping themselves. That's the freaking difference. A drunk person driving or punching someone is taking an action, and a bad one, and should be held responsible and blamed for it. A person that's raped is taking no part in the action of rape and therefore has no responsibility. Period. Zero. Zilch. A passed out drunk person takes no action...a drunk person who engages willingly in sex but later claims they were too drunk to consent still took ACTION.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 13:50:08 GMT -5
Certainly drunk people can be raped. But not everyone who drinks a lot and has sex is raped.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 13:50:19 GMT -5
Then what am I saying that you disagree with? you said: and I'm wondering why you would ask that in response to my post. If you've been reading any of my posts, I haven't said anything close to "don't hold the bad drink makers responsible since the drinkers didn't have to drink them". Is there some sort of script running in here that causes "everyone should take responsibility for their actions and personal safety" to read "well, you deserve to be taken advantage of if you let your guard down"? They are not the same, regardless of how much you apparently want them to be. Explain to me the point of saying "Everyone should be responsible for their own safety" when I say "People should not get others drunk with the intent of taking advantage of them."
"People should not get others drunk with the intent of taking advantage of them." "Everyone should be responsible for their own safety"
To me that really reads like victim blaming.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 13:50:27 GMT -5
Thanks for the grammar lesson, you need to talk with autocorrect. And I'm over arguing with you. If you think there's no way for a drunk person to be raped then well I guess that's what you think. A drunk person can be raped...but a drunk person that gave consent was not raped.
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justme
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Post by justme on Mar 20, 2015 13:52:29 GMT -5
So no matter what a drunk person is fully in charge of their faculties? Than why can someone not enter into a contract while drunk. A drunk person that gave consent gave consent so the contract should stand.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 13:52:56 GMT -5
you said: and I'm wondering why you would ask that in response to my post. If you've been reading any of my posts, I haven't said anything close to "don't hold the bad drink makers responsible since the drinkers didn't have to drink them". Is there some sort of script running in here that causes "everyone should take responsibility for their actions and personal safety" to read "well, you deserve to be taken advantage of if you let your guard down"? They are not the same, regardless of how much you apparently want them to be. Explain to me the point of saying "Everyone should be responsible for their own safety" when I say "People should not get others drunk with the intent of taking advantage of them."
"People should not get others drunk with the intent of taking advantage of them." "Everyone should be responsible for their own safety"
To me that really reads like victim blaming.
I'm not Jen but I will give my opinion. Walking down the street and getting raped by some random stranger makes you a victim. The rapist doesn't give you the choice....if I get drunk I am making the choice to drink the alcohol and get drunk. Unless some asshat roofies my drink (which is why I never leave my drink alone) ....
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Mar 20, 2015 13:54:15 GMT -5
I had googled it up yesterday. I didn't see anything in there that was more than the original quote. It pulls up a 3 page article when I load "drunken sex" into their search box.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 13:56:13 GMT -5
So no matter what a drunk person is fully in charge of their faculties? Than why can someone not enter into a contract while drunk. A drunk person that gave consent gave consent so the contract should stand. People younger than 18 can't enter into a legally binding contract...so I guess any male 16 year old having sex with a female 16 year old (even if sober) should be thrown in jail...because if they can't legally enter into a contract then they can't have sex...and yes, it is only the male that will go to jail because females are too stupid to know any better
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