Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 10:30:37 GMT -5
I think the intent of the "drunk girls can't give consent" idea is that some men have been known to use alcohol to coerce women to say yes that they know would otherwise say no. Getting a woman drunk to get into her pants is not acceptable. Or having sex with a woman that is passed out. And you honestly think that the girls involved have no responsibility to not get so drunk that they would do something that they otherwise wouldn't? Guess what, a guy who is normally a very level headed guy is still arrested if he gets drunk and punches some asshole in the face. He doesn't get a pass because he was too drunk to make an informed decision of whether or not punching that guy was a good idea. If girls get passes for the decisions when drunk then so should men. I absolutely despise rules that apply to one sex, one race, etc
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 11, 2024 23:28:09 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 10:30:39 GMT -5
The problem is because there's the "ugh I wouldn't have done that sober, but I knew what I was doing" drunk and the "I have no idea what's going on and don't remember anything past 11" drunk. One would be a bad decision the later raped. ... So rape is dependent on what the person remembers after the fact and not their behavior during the incident? I took it to acknowledge that there are varying degrees of drunkenness. I've learned that people's actions when they've been drinking aren't always good indicators of just how drunk they are. I've been around people who I thought were a bit "tipsy", but not really drunk..... no stumbling, slurred words, confusion, or anything like that, only to learn later that they were so drunk they didn't remember what they did. Maybe that's something only experienced drinkers can do (and I believe we're talking mostly about young adults here), but I can see that posing another problem. I guess the moral of the story is just don't have sex with people that have been drinking.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 38,233
|
Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 10:33:31 GMT -5
I think the intent of the "drunk girls can't give consent" idea is that some men have been known to use alcohol to coerce women to say yes that they know would otherwise say no. Getting a woman drunk to get into her pants is not acceptable. Or having sex with a woman that is passed out. "Getting a woman drunk"? Are we talking offering an adult drinks that she accepts, lifts glass, pours into mouth, and swallows voluntarily?
|
|
Tiny
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 21:22:34 GMT -5
Posts: 13,493
Member is Online
|
Post by Tiny on Mar 20, 2015 10:35:14 GMT -5
I think the intent of the "drunk girls can't give consent" idea is that some men have been known to use alcohol to coerce women to say yes that they know would otherwise say no. Getting a woman drunk to get into her pants is not acceptable. Or having sex with a woman that is passed out. Maybe I've just spent too much time being sober while everyone else is in various stages of drunkeness. I've heard drunken people say all sorts of things they have no intention of doing or wanting. I've heard some great drunken rants and some great drunken promises and some great drunken requests. How come a drunken woman's "consent to have sex" is taken at face value and accepted as legitimate -- when guys are rarely held to ANYTHING they say while drunk?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 11, 2024 23:28:09 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 10:36:46 GMT -5
So if neither of them are sober and that's the extent of the persuasion and the person that says Okay immediately whips their clothes off and pounces on the other person, is one person more responsible than the other? I guess I was thinking of a little more effort when I mentioned being persuaded. No matter how unenlightened I may sound, I'm being serious here. How much is "a little more"? My example was persuasion by definition but seems like it was okay. Would one more unsure/line be too much? Two? What about suggesting it again on second night? If persuasion is the line that can't be crossed or it is rape, it seems like about 99% of sexual activity would qualify. "Honey, you up for sex tonight? "I'm kinda tired." (Sad puppy dog look) "Okay." Persuasion. I was not saying your example of persuasion was inadequate or incorrect. I was really "thinking out loud", trying to decide if my use of "persuaded" really reflected what I meant.
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Mar 20, 2015 10:37:58 GMT -5
Probably more like hunch punch that has so much liquor in it you can't taste that over half the liquid is in fact 151. It tastes nice and fruity and sweet and has no burning sensation so it can't be that strong, right? Or laying out fruit that has been soaked in vodka for a day, but you can't taste the liquor. Both I saw regularly happening at college parties.
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 20, 2015 10:39:11 GMT -5
I think the intent of the "drunk girls can't give consent" idea is that some men have been known to use alcohol to coerce women to say yes that they know would otherwise say no. Getting a woman drunk to get into her pants is not acceptable. Or having sex with a woman that is passed out. "Getting a woman drunk"? Are we talking offering an adult drinks that she accepts, lifts glass, pours into mouth, and swallows voluntarily? Good point. And this is where BOTH parties need to take responsibility for their actions, and one person should not be held more or less responsible for their own actions than the other.
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 42,246
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Mar 20, 2015 10:42:01 GMT -5
I think the intent of the "drunk girls can't give consent" idea is that some men have been known to use alcohol to coerce women to say yes that they know would otherwise say no. Getting a woman drunk to get into her pants is not acceptable. Or having sex with a woman that is passed out. "Getting a woman drunk"? Are we talking offering an adult drinks that she accepts, lifts glass, pours into mouth, and swallows voluntarily? So if you work on getting a guy drunk to have sex that's OK too?
Personally I think neither is acceptable unless agreed in advance. Both sexes should risk rape charges if someone is too drunk to give informed consent. JMO.
|
|
ArchietheDragon
Junior Associate
Joined: Jul 7, 2014 14:29:23 GMT -5
Posts: 6,380
|
Post by ArchietheDragon on Mar 20, 2015 10:42:11 GMT -5
I think the intent of the "drunk girls can't give consent" idea is that some men have been known to use alcohol to coerce women to say yes that they know would otherwise say no. Getting a woman drunk to get into her pants is not acceptable. Or having sex with a woman that is passed out. And you honestly think that the girls involved have no responsibility to not get so drunk that they would do something that they otherwise wouldn't? Guess what, a guy who is normally a very level headed guy is still arrested if he gets drunk and punches some asshole in the face. He doesn't get a pass because he was too drunk to make an informed decision of whether or not punching that guy was a good idea. If girls get passes for the decisions when drunk then so should men. I absolutely despise rules that apply to one sex, one race, etc I think it may hearken back to the idea that men having lots of sex is a positive thing and women having lots of sex is a negative thing. I think that idea has changed some. The 60s and 70s seemed to help, but there is still the overwhelming idea that a women is a ho or a slut and that a guy is a player and a stud.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 10:42:29 GMT -5
"Getting a woman drunk"? Are we talking offering an adult drinks that she accepts, lifts glass, pours into mouth, and swallows voluntarily? Good point. And this is where BOTH parties need to take responsibility for their actions, and one person should not be held more or less responsible for their own actions than the other. You obviously hate women
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 20, 2015 10:46:05 GMT -5
Good point. And this is where BOTH parties need to take responsibility for their actions, and one person should not be held more or less responsible for their own actions than the other. You obviously hate women yeah, some of them
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 10:46:56 GMT -5
yeah, some of them Lol
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 38,233
|
Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 10:54:24 GMT -5
... some men have been known to use flowers, dinner, and a movie to coerce women to say yes that they know would otherwise say no. Getting a woman in a romantic mood to get into her pants is acceptable. ...
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Mar 20, 2015 10:57:47 GMT -5
But flowers are not a mind altering substance.
|
|
Lizard Queen
Senior Associate
103/2024
Joined: Jan 17, 2011 22:19:13 GMT -5
Posts: 14,659
|
Post by Lizard Queen on Mar 20, 2015 10:59:41 GMT -5
But flowers are not a mind altering substance. What if they're poppies??
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 20, 2015 11:01:16 GMT -5
But flowers are not a mind altering substance. but no one is forcing you to drink/consume whatever is being given.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 38,233
|
Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 11:02:54 GMT -5
|
|
CarolinaKat
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 16:10:37 GMT -5
Posts: 6,364
|
Post by CarolinaKat on Mar 20, 2015 11:18:48 GMT -5
So does it come down to "who filed first"??
sadly, yes. That's stupid. These are criminal charges that F people's lives up, not patents...
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Mar 20, 2015 11:24:11 GMT -5
Flowers don't equal romantic love. I'm not in love with anyone who gives me flowers.
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Mar 20, 2015 11:39:25 GMT -5
And this is why we have a problem folks. Not sure what you mean I'm trying to be as careful as I can be when typing this, not because I don't think you can understand, but because I know this is a trigger for some and I'm honestly not trying to do that. The notion that one person has the right to take advantage of someone who is not in full control of their facilities is something I find abhorrent at a very primal level. The fact that someone may have voluntarily gotten themselves to that state is 100% irrelevant! Yes, I will teach my daughter not to make herself vulnerable, but anyone who takes advantage of someone who is vulnerable is a predator, plain and simple. By saying that the person who was taken advantage allowed themselves to get to that state is putting the blame for the predator on them, and that is wrong. Yes, just like the theft example you want to take provisions to protect yourself, but that does NOT give anyone permission to have sex with you when you can't clearly give consent. Just like forgetting to lock your car doesn't give someone permission to steal it. The fact that the mother of two daughters doesn't get this is, as I stated, part of the problem. I read that as you saying if you allow yourself to get drunk then you deserve whatever shit happens to you. Nope, no way, not ever! I specifically asked if it way ok for a sober person to have sex with someone who was too drunk to give consent, you were fine with it. That's what I'm responding to.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 11, 2024 23:28:09 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 11:43:59 GMT -5
I think the intent of the "drunk girls can't give consent" idea is that some men have been known to use alcohol to coerce women to say yes that they know would otherwise say no. Getting a woman drunk to get into her pants is not acceptable. Or having sex with a woman that is passed out. And you honestly think that the girls involved have no responsibility to not get so drunk that they would do something that they otherwise wouldn't? Guess what, a guy who is normally a very level headed guy is still arrested if he gets drunk and punches some asshole in the face. He doesn't get a pass because he was too drunk to make an informed decision of whether or not punching that guy was a good idea. If girls get passes for the decisions when drunk then so should men. I absolutely despise rules that apply to one sex, one race, etc I have never said the girls have no responsibility. And actually a normally level headed guy that punches an asshole in the face when he is drunk does get a pass. Very, very rarely would they end up with jail time for it and most likely would have very light charges if any at all.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 11, 2024 23:28:09 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 11:49:28 GMT -5
I think the intent of the "drunk girls can't give consent" idea is that some men have been known to use alcohol to coerce women to say yes that they know would otherwise say no. Getting a woman drunk to get into her pants is not acceptable. Or having sex with a woman that is passed out. "Getting a woman drunk"? Are we talking offering an adult drinks that she accepts, lifts glass, pours into mouth, and swallows voluntarily? We are talking about supplying copious amounts of alcohol to someone with the intent of taking advantage when they are vulnerable. A well thought out strategy with bad intentions.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 38,233
|
Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 12:15:04 GMT -5
"Getting a woman drunk"? Are we talking offering an adult drinks that she accepts, lifts glass, pours into mouth, and swallows voluntarily? We are talking about supplying copious amounts of alcohol to someone with the intent of taking advantage when they are vulnerable. A well thought out strategy with bad intentions. I understand that. So we are talking adults voluntarily consuming what is being supplied to them by a person with bad intentions? Are we talking about incompetent due to mental defect adults? Or are these competent adults able to make wise independent decisions in other circumstances where they dealing with a parson with bad intentions?
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Mar 20, 2015 12:18:50 GMT -5
The thing is it's really easy to make a drink a lot stronger than you think. If you do it right one drink could actually equal three. So a girl thinks she only had 3 drinks and is ok she really had 9.
|
|
quince
Senior Member
Joined: Sept 23, 2011 17:51:12 GMT -5
Posts: 2,699
|
Post by quince on Mar 20, 2015 12:23:18 GMT -5
if a guy ever said that to me, he can bet on not getting any. So I guess that does prevent rape...? Wow. Explicit consent made sexy. I like it. My conversations with my husband about sex used to be very stiff. He doesn't cuss, even when he's quoting someone he won't say "fuck." I don't interact with humans well, so I think we were groping each other and I sat up and said, "At some point, we're going to have intercourse, right?" and he started laughing.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 11, 2024 23:28:09 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 12:29:02 GMT -5
We are talking about supplying copious amounts of alcohol to someone with the intent of taking advantage when they are vulnerable. A well thought out strategy with bad intentions. I understand that. So we are talking adults voluntarily consuming what is being supplied to them by a person with bad intentions? Are we talking about incompetent due to mental defect adults? Or are these competent adults able to make wise independent decisions in other circumstances where they dealing with a parson with bad intentions? Are you asking who it is okay to supply copious amounts of alcohol to with bad intentions?
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 20, 2015 12:34:33 GMT -5
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 38,233
|
Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 12:42:38 GMT -5
I understand that. So we are talking adults voluntarily consuming what is being supplied to them by a person with bad intentions? Are we talking about incompetent due to mental defect adults? Or are these competent adults able to make wise independent decisions in other circumstances where they dealing with a parson with bad intentions? Are you asking who it is okay to supply copious amounts of alcohol to with bad intentions? No. I am asking who you perceive to be too incompetent to make their own decision of whether to consume that which is being supplied by a person with bad intentions.
|
|
whoisjohngalt
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:12:07 GMT -5
Posts: 9,140
|
Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 20, 2015 12:49:30 GMT -5
I'm trying to be as careful as I can be when typing this, not because I don't think you can understand, but because I know this is a trigger for some and I'm honestly not trying to do that. The notion that one person has the right to take advantage of someone who is not in full control of their facilities is something I find abhorrent at a very primal level. The fact that someone may have voluntarily gotten themselves to that state is 100% irrelevant! Yes, I will teach my daughter not to make herself vulnerable, but anyone who takes advantage of someone who is vulnerable is a predator, plain and simple. By saying that the person who was taken advantage allowed themselves to get to that state is putting the blame for the predator on them, and that is wrong. Yes, just like the theft example you want to take provisions to protect yourself, but that does NOT give anyone permission to have sex with you when you can't clearly give consent. Just like forgetting to lock your car doesn't give someone permission to steal it. The fact that the mother of two daughters doesn't get this is, as I stated, part of the problem. I read that as you saying if you allow yourself to get drunk then you deserve whatever shit happens to you. Nope, no way, not ever! I specifically asked if it way ok for a sober person to have sex with someone who was too drunk to give consent, you were fine with it. That's what I'm responding to. I agree that it is irrelevant how someone got to the vulnerable stage. and yes, it is 100% wrong to take advantage of anyone in a vulnerable position. However! Is it just as wrong to accept a "yes" from a person in a vulnerable position? If you think "yes," please explain. As a side note - a drunk person can not enter into a legally binding contract. Should we be taking it a step further?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 11, 2024 23:28:09 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 12:53:25 GMT -5
Are you asking who it is okay to supply copious amounts of alcohol to with bad intentions? No. I am asking who you perceive to be too incompetent to make their own decision of whether to consume that which is being supplied by a person with bad intentions. What does it matter? Why would it ever be okay to try to do that to someone?
|
|