How to prevent rape

[Wisconsin Beth]

Mar 19, 2015 13:43:27 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:41:06 GMT -5 The Captain said:

But wait, doesn't that go both ways?  Why aren't you saying you can't expect a drunk 18yo girl to know enough not to have sex with a drunk 18yo guy?

Let's take that a step further - if we don't allow intoxication as an excuse for drunk driving, why is it ok as an excuse for rape?

I actually don't think it is rape. If the girl is really drunk but ihas sex I think that falls under "bad decision" on her part. If she is passed out and he has sex with her, then she didn't consent and it is rape

Here, have a field day with this one.  Edited somewhat.  Mods, if we need further editing, go for it. 

www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2015/02/drunk_sex_on_campus_universities_are_struggling_to_determine_when_intoxicated.html

Jane and John met in their first week as undergrads at Occidental College. They enrolled in the same freshman seminar, chatted on a field trip, pregamed for a school dance together, and then—on a night when they both claim they were more intoxicated than they had ever been before—they had sex.

According to witnesses, who would be asked to recount the night’s events after Jane filed a sexual misconduct claim against John with the school, Jane “was grabbing John and trying to kiss him”; John was “somewhat responsive” but “seemed pretty indifferent.” But he was also “loud, obnoxious, kind of pushing everyone, going nuts a bit,” slurring his words, and at one point, attempted to move everyone but Jane out of the room. Eventually, both Jane and John removed their own shirts while dancing. When Jane ended up lying on top of John on his bed and grinding her hips on him, a couple of her friends pulled her away and tried to lead her back to her own bed. She was “a little upset and indignant,” one of them reported, but agreed to return to her room.

She wouldn’t stay there. “The second that you’re away from them, come back,” John texted Jane. “Okay,” she replied. “Do you have a condom?” she texted. “Yes,” he said. Jane eventually snuck out of her room, past her friends and her resident adviser, and made her way to John’s room, where she performed oral sex on him (which Jane says she remembers doing, but John says he can’t recall) and they began having sex (which both later said they didn’t remember). When another student knocked on the door to ask if Jane was OK, she responded affirmatively three times. Later, another student opened the door and saw them having sex. According to investigators, this witness “had attended sexual assault prevention training during orientation, and had been told what to do if he witnessed a sexual assault.” So he closed the door and let John and Jane continue, because, he told investigators, “This didn’t look like one to me."

But, a week after the incident, Jane filed a complaint against John with the school. John was ultimately found in violation of Occidental’s sexual misconduct policy, which forbids students from having sexual contact with anyone who is “incapacitated” by drugs or alcohol. John was expelled, the harshest possible punishment for students found responsible for sexual assault on campus. Then, he filed suit against Occidental, alleging that the school unfairly applied its sexual misconduct policy based on gender. (The suit refers to the students as just John Doe and Jane Doe, to preserve their anonymity.) As the lawsuit puts it: “John is being expelled because he is male; Jane Doe is not because she is female.”

[Wisconsin Beth]

And mods, if that should be a separate thread, let me know and I can start it.  I'm sort of posting and running though. 

[imawino]

Mar 19, 2015 13:54:12 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:52:03 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

I don't have a clue what you are taking about

Sorry,  you snuck a post in there  This statement was a response to imawino 's statement here; 

I would have to have longer to read this article to be sure but what it seems to do is break it down into a couple of different categories. "rape" and "other sexual violence". then it states that the women who are victims of "rape" are almost equal to number of men that are victims of "other sexual violence". if you added the women who are victims of rape and other sexual violence together you get a MUCH higher number.

The article continues on to state: On the other hand, most of us would agree that to equate a victim of violent rape and a man who engages in a drunken sexual act he wouldn’t have chosen when sober is to trivialize a terrible crime. It is safe to assume that the vast majority of the CDC’s male respondents who were “made to penetrate” someone would not call themselves rape victims—and with good reason.


So as to your question "really?" the answer is yes, really.

I'm sorry, you are having a reading comprehension problem here. That is me quoting the article you linked to. 

You are trying to say that men are raped in equal numbers to women, you linked to an article that specifically states that is not true. 

[midjd]

I think the point of this is to point the finger in the other direction, for a change.

I agree. But it is very interesting how EVERY time this is attempted, the discussion still ends up focusing on what women should do/should have done differently to prevent rape. Or nitpicking that the OP wasn't inclusive enough, and what about men who are raped?

Just like the feminism thread quickly turned into a discussion on men's rights.

Considering that this board skews heavily female, it's an interesting phenomenon. 

[milee]

Mar 19, 2015 13:55:46 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

And mods, if that should be a separate thread, let me know and I can start it.  I'm sort of posting and running though. 

You're welcome to move it over to my thread on what parents of boys need to be talking about.

This sort of case is exactly what I'm referring to when I say that there are many gray areas in the college rape cases and parents of boys need to be teaching their boys about consent, impairment, coercion, age differences, etc. because most of the cases aren't the ambush/club/rape scenarios many people think of when they hear "rape."

[The Captain]

Mar 19, 2015 13:49:45 GMT -5 milee said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:43:27 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

I actually don't think it is rape. If the girl is really drunk but ihas sex I think that falls under "bad decision" on her part.

But this is at the heart of many of the recent college rape cases. The girls aren't unconscious, but they're drunk. The boys either don't know or don't care that the girl is too drunk to consent - her eyes are open, right? This is exactly the sort of stuff IMHO we need to start talking to our boys about... and I am.  And given some of their responses, I'm glad I am starting these talks. And for your daughters' sakes, you should all hope that all parents of boys start having these talks.

We need to talk to both our sons and daughters.  It is just as possible for a sober female to take advantage of a drunk guy as the other way around.  It happens much more than we care to think about.

People think somehow biology prevents a guy from getting raped by a female and that simply isn't true.

[Miss Tequila]

Mar 19, 2015 14:00:16 GMT -5 midjd said:

I think the point of this is to point the finger in the other direction, for a change.

I agree. But it is very interesting how EVERY time this is attempted, the discussion still ends up focusing on what women should do/should have done differently to prevent rape. Or nitpicking that the OP wasn't inclusive enough, and what about men who are raped?

Just like the feminism thread quickly turned into a discussion on men's rights.

Considering that this board skews heavily female, it's an interesting phenomenon. 

Serious question. You have a daughter. Are you not going to teach her certain to not put herself in certain situations that make her vulnerable?

There are bad people out there. Sometimes people (both men and women) make some really bad decisions and they lay the ultimate price for it. I am trying to teach my daughter to do the best she can to keep herself safe. We can't stop all crimes but we can not put ourselves in situations that make us file to become some psychos victim

[Deleted]

Mar 19, 2015 13:25:43 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

laterbloomer: I guess rape jokes are funnier than feminism jokes?

I don't see this as a joke. I also don't see it as mocking anyone.

[Deleted]

Mar 19, 2015 13:45:02 GMT -5 milee said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:31:12 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

I agree with that. I can't imagine expecting a drunk 18 year old guy to know enough not to have sex with a drunk 18 year old girl.

True. I've got two boys and I've been starting to talk to them about how part of being a responsible guy is to avoid being so drunk that they're not making good decisions. Not just drunk driving, but we're talking in very specific terms about how they're likely to be bigger and stronger than most women around them and it's up to them - not the women - to know if the women are sober enough, old enough, not being pressured to consent.

Again, not to derail this thread, so when you get a chance, please head over to the other thread on what we can talk to our boys about. Because I think we're doing our boys a big disservice for assuming they'll know enough to avoid some of this stuff unless we actively start talking to them about it.

I don't think that is derailing the thread. I think you are teaching your boys great things.

[Miss Tequila]

Mar 19, 2015 14:09:19 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:45:02 GMT -5 milee said:

True. I've got two boys and I've been starting to talk to them about how part of being a responsible guy is to avoid being so drunk that they're not making good decisions. Not just drunk driving, but we're talking in very specific terms about how they're likely to be bigger and stronger than most women around them and it's up to them - not the women - to know if the women are sober enough, old enough, not being pressured to consent.

Again, not to derail this thread, so when you get a chance, please head over to the other thread on what we can talk to our boys about. Because I think we're doing our boys a big disservice for assuming they'll know enough to avoid some of this stuff unless we actively start talking to them about it.

I don't think that is derailing the thread. I think you are teaching your boys great things.

Why is it ok to teach a guy not to get so drunk that they don't make good decisions but when I teach my daughter to make good decisions it means I'm siding with the rapist?

[Deleted]

Mar 19, 2015 14:04:28 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Mar 19, 2015 14:00:16 GMT -5 midjd said:

I agree. But it is very interesting how EVERY time this is attempted, the discussion still ends up focusing on what women should do/should have done differently to prevent rape. Or nitpicking that the OP wasn't inclusive enough, and what about men who are raped?

Just like the feminism thread quickly turned into a discussion on men's rights.

Considering that this board skews heavily female, it's an interesting phenomenon. 

Serious question. You have a daughter. Are you not going to teach her certain to not put herself in certain situations that make her vulnerable?

There are bad people out there. Sometimes people (both men and women) make some really bad decisions and they lay the ultimate price for it. I am trying to teach my daughter to do the best she can to keep herself safe. We can't stop all crimes but we can not put ourselves in situations that make us file to become some psychos victim

Everyone has already said they teach their daughters that stuff. We are trying to talk about the other things we do to try to prevent rape. Why do we have to get stuck on what we teach girls?

[Miss Tequila]

Mar 19, 2015 14:11:00 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Mar 19, 2015 14:04:28 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Serious question. You have a daughter. Are you not going to teach her certain to not put herself in certain situations that make her vulnerable?

There are bad people out there. Sometimes people (both men and women) make some really bad decisions and they lay the ultimate price for it. I am trying to teach my daughter to do the best she can to keep herself safe. We can't stop all crimes but we can not put ourselves in situations that make us file to become some psychos victim

Everyone has already said they teach their daughters that stuff. We are trying to talk about the other things we do to try to prevent rape. Why do we have to get stuck on what we teach girls?

Why do you refuse to talk about what girls can do to prevent rape? Not getting blasted at a party is a prime example of how to not out yourself in a position where you are vulnerable

[The Captain]

I know @sroo4, but people are so focused on only women having the potential to be a victim it's hard to realize that men can be victims as well.  There's always the jokes about the jailhouse stuff but the stats on how many male rapes are not reported is downright disheartening.

Society doesn't accept that a drunk guy may not actually want to score if a woman offers herself to him.  The myth that if he's erect means he's willing is just that, a myth.  Ask any teenage boy if they have control over their bodies at all times. 

The talk I'll have with DD is about RESPECT.  And yes, I will stress that sober, active, consent should always be given first.

(Now I got to go rock quietly in a corner cause I'm not looking forward to this conversation).

[midjd]

Mar 19, 2015 14:04:28 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Mar 19, 2015 14:00:16 GMT -5 midjd said:

I agree. But it is very interesting how EVERY time this is attempted, the discussion still ends up focusing on what women should do/should have done differently to prevent rape. Or nitpicking that the OP wasn't inclusive enough, and what about men who are raped?

Just like the feminism thread quickly turned into a discussion on men's rights.

Considering that this board skews heavily female, it's an interesting phenomenon. 

Serious question. You have a daughter. Are you not going to teach her certain to not put herself in certain situations that make her vulnerable?

There are bad people out there. Sometimes people (both men and women) make some really bad decisions and they lay the ultimate price for it. I am trying to teach my daughter to do the best she can to keep herself safe. We can't stop all crimes but we can not put ourselves in situations that make us file to become some psychos victim

They're not mutually exclusive concepts. Of course I plan to teach my daughter to be safe. I also plan to do so in a way that doesn't cause her to assume that if something were to happen, she should feel guilty or responsible. Although every rape is preventable, not every rape is preventable by the victim.

But when the subject of the thread is "how to prevent potential rapists from raping" (taking gender out of it), the fact that it almost immediately turns into a discussion of what rape victims should do to prevent rape is depressing. 

[Deleted]

Mar 19, 2015 14:12:40 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Mar 19, 2015 14:11:00 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Everyone has already said they teach their daughters that stuff. We are trying to talk about the other things we do to try to prevent rape. Why do we have to get stuck on what we teach girls?

Why do you refuse to talk about what girls can do to prevent rape? Not getting blasted at a party is a prime example of how to not out yourself in a position where you are vulnerable

It has been talked about, repeatedly, all the time. Why can't one thread be about pointing out that it really is the perpetrators fault and not the victims.

[midjd]

Why do you refuse to talk about what girls can do to prevent rape?

BECAUSE THAT'S NOT WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT!

I am pretty sure that subject has been covered ad nauseam, here and elsewhere. There is a much smaller focus on what potential rapists can do to prevent rape, which is was the topic of this thread.

[Deleted]

Mar 19, 2015 14:07:11 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:25:43 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

laterbloomer: I guess rape jokes are funnier than feminism jokes?

I don't see this as a joke. I also don't see it as mocking anyone.

Except maybe rapists. I will admit I do not have a problem mocking rapists.

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 19, 2015 14:07:11 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:25:43 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

laterbloomer: I guess rape jokes are funnier than feminism jokes?

I don't see this as a joke. I also don't see it as mocking anyone.

It's satirical.

When this thread has run it's course, you could try starting a thread on whether the drunk driver or the passenger who gets into the car with the drunk driver is more to blame when the car rear-ends a semi and kills the passenger. Assigning blame is a critical step to fixing the problem.

[imawino]

Mar 19, 2015 14:02:57 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:59:34 GMT -5 imawino said:

I'm sorry, you are having a reading comprehension problem here. That is me quoting the article you linked to. 

You are trying to say that men are raped in equal numbers to women, you linked to an article that specifically states that is not true. 

I think you need to reread the article. 

You know, I was pretty sure I didn't. But I looked at it again anyway. It is still stating that the number of women who are "raped" is nearly equivalent to the number of men who are victims of "other sexual assault" while leaving out the number of WOMEN who are victims of "other sexual assault" (which is a far greater number than the number of women who reported being raped).  So the rates of sexual violence against men and women are NOT THE SAME.  I did not say that it's nothing when a man is sexually assaulted.   But your insistence that men and women are raped at the same rate is not true. 

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 19, 2015 14:15:42 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Mar 19, 2015 14:12:40 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Why do you refuse to talk about what girls can do to prevent rape? Not getting blasted at a party is a prime example of how to not out yourself in a position where you are vulnerable

It has been talked about, repeatedly, all the time. Why can't one thread be about pointing out that it really is the perpetrators fault and not the victims.

Because pretty much all of them are about that?

ETA: ...and the perpetrators don't care, so what's the point?

...and no rapists are reading this thread, but numerous parents who can educate their children are?

Aren't these threads supposed to be about doing something? Besides opining that rapists oughtn't rape people? Do you expect somebody to take the "con" side on that debate?

[milee]

Mar 19, 2015 13:43:27 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:41:06 GMT -5 The Captain said:

But wait, doesn't that go both ways?  Why aren't you saying you can't expect a drunk 18yo girl to know enough not to have sex with a drunk 18yo guy?

Let's take that a step further - if we don't allow intoxication as an excuse for drunk driving, why is it ok as an excuse for rape?

I actually don't think it is rape. If the girl is really drunk but ihas sex I think that falls under "bad decision" on her part.

BTW, even if you don't think this scenario (girl is really drunk but has sex) is rape, colleges do and this very issue is at the crux of many of the recent college rape cases.

[midjd]

Mar 19, 2015 14:19:30 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Mar 19, 2015 14:15:42 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

It has been talked about, repeatedly, all the time. Why can't one thread be about pointing out that it really is the perpetrators fault and not the victims.

Because pretty much all of them are about that?

Is that a joke?

[MJ2.0]

Mar 19, 2015 13:47:20 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:30:13 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Okay, I'm bowing out of this now. Because it's perfectly okay to tell people lock their doors and homes to keep their possessions safe even though we all pretty much know it's wrong to steal, and teach our kids about "stranger danger" and "bad touches" even though we all know it's wrong to kidnap or molest kids.  But even dare to suggest that women take a few measures to ensure their safety (as everyone should BTW) and people lose their shit.

I don't think anyone is advocating for women to act like oblivious idiots.  I think the point of this is to point the finger in the other direction, for a change.  Of course, they should take reasonable precautions.  The problem with that starts when precautions get to a point such that women have less freedom.  So instead of going out and living their lives, getting into elevators alone or doing their laundry when it's convenient for them, they don't for fear of being caught alone.

I'll respond to this: it doesn't seem obvious that people who've been responding here would tell their daughters to take precautions because if even ONE person mentions that women (or just people in general) should take precautions to ensure their safety, that is apparently tantamount to EVERYONE saying that the victim is the only person to be held responsible for the rape. This happens every time on here and it gets tiring REALLY fast.

[Miss Tequila]

Mar 19, 2015 14:21:57 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:47:20 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

I don't think anyone is advocating for women to act like oblivious idiots.  I think the point of this is to point the finger in the other direction, for a change.  Of course, they should take reasonable precautions.  The problem with that starts when precautions get to a point such that women have less freedom.  So instead of going out and living their lives, getting into elevators alone or doing their laundry when it's convenient for them, they don't for fear of being caught alone.

I'll respond to this: it doesn't seem obvious that people who've been responding here would tell their daughters to take precautions because if even ONE person mentions that women (or just people in general) should take precautions to ensure their safety, that is apparently tantamount to EVERYONE saying that the victim is the only person to be held responsible for the rape. This happens every time on here and it gets tiring REALLY fast.

Exactly...I'm even getting replied to in CAPS over this issue. I forgot...I am only allowed to post about what the liberals agree with. Noted and moving on

[midjd]

Exactly...I'm even getting replied to in CAPS over this issue. I forgot...I am only allowed to post about what the liberals agree with. Noted and moving on

I had no idea rape prevention was a liberal/conservative issue. Which party is pro-rape? 

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 19, 2015 14:21:50 GMT -5 midjd said:

Mar 19, 2015 14:19:30 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Because pretty much all of them are about that?

Is that a joke?

I can't think of a single one that hasn't featured that sentiment.

Search for "blaming the victim" and watch 8 million YMAM rape threads pop up. It's not a novel topic.

[imawino]

Mar 19, 2015 14:21:57 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:47:20 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

I don't think anyone is advocating for women to act like oblivious idiots.  I think the point of this is to point the finger in the other direction, for a change.  Of course, they should take reasonable precautions.  The problem with that starts when precautions get to a point such that women have less freedom.  So instead of going out and living their lives, getting into elevators alone or doing their laundry when it's convenient for them, they don't for fear of being caught alone.

I'll respond to this: it doesn't seem obvious that people who've been responding here would tell their daughters to take precautions because if even ONE person mentions that women (or just people in general) should take precautions to ensure their safety, that is apparently tantamount to EVERYONE saying that the victim is the only person to be held responsible for the rape. This happens every time on here and it gets tiring REALLY fast.

I think it's the opposite. Every time anyone tries to have a discussion about not blaming the victim, a bunch of people respond " well yeah, sure, of course,  BUT.....".    That's what is tiring.   Why can't a conversation about focusing on the perpetrator be allowed to just be about that?  And not ALSO ways that the women need to be educated to be fearful of being out alone after dark? 

[midjd]

Mar 19, 2015 14:26:49 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Mar 19, 2015 14:21:50 GMT -5 midjd said:

Is that a joke?

I can't think of a single one that hasn't featured that sentiment.

Search for "blaming the victim" and watch 8 million YMAM rape threads pop up. It's not a novel topic.

Ah, I misunderstood. I took your comment to mean that all rape threads focused on what potential rapists should do to prevent it (as this one was intended to be).

But no, you're correct. This thread and every other rape thread has devolved into what women should do to be "safer." Because women are the only ones who are raped, and apparently the only ones who should try to prevent it.

[Miss Tequila]

Mar 19, 2015 14:26:48 GMT -5 midjd said:

Exactly...I'm even getting replied to in CAPS over this issue. I forgot...I am only allowed to post about what the liberals agree with. Noted and moving on

I had no idea rape prevention was a liberal/conservative issue. Which party is pro-rape? 

Sorry...I should have used feminazis and not liberals. God forbid a women take any responsibility for her personal safety.

[imawino]

Mar 19, 2015 14:24:25 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Mar 19, 2015 14:21:57 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

I'll respond to this: it doesn't seem obvious that people who've been responding here would tell their daughters to take precautions because if even ONE person mentions that women (or just people in general) should take precautions to ensure their safety, that is apparently tantamount to EVERYONE saying that the victim is the only person to be held responsible for the rape. This happens every time on here and it gets tiring REALLY fast.

Exactly...I'm even getting replied to in CAPS over this issue. I forgot...I am only allowed to post about what the liberals agree with. Noted and moving on

First of all, it's hilarious that you are quoting a post filled with CAPS that is agreeing with you to complain about people posting with CAPS. Second of all, if liberals are against victim-blaming, I'm pretty cool with that. I'm not sure how rape just got turned into a political thing?