How to prevent rape

[Deleted]

Mar 19, 2015 13:12:51 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:03:52 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

That's not the logic of this thread. Tell your daughters what you want, but more emphasis needs to be put on the perpetrator and changing their behaviour.

I am always fascinated by how these topics always switch to defending men and insisting that women are still responsible for avoiding rape.

How am I defending men?

You fall more on the women are still responsible for avoiding it side.

[justme]

There's no was to be inclusive of all unless anything you write is bogged down of his or her man or woman he or she. And it just gets so ridiculous to read all that.

I personally hate reading through something with endless his or her.

[Miss Tequila]

Mar 19, 2015 13:13:39 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

If the true point of this was to show victim blaming, then it did a piss poor job. It clearly indicates that women are the only victims. If the writers of this really cared about ending rape then it would have been inclusive to all victims. It's not that hard to remove the references to women from this, as they managed to do it in #7 and #9.

How often do you hear men told not to walk by parked cars at night?

How often do we tell teens (both female and male) to stay out of the bad parts of town? My best friends son is the same age as my daughter and we tell them both the same thing. We have a few areas that are turning into ghettos and both of our kids have been told they aren't to go anywhere near those areas. They should be able to go wherever hey want without worrying that they will got shot or mugged but that isn't reality

[imawino]

Mar 19, 2015 13:13:22 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Mar 19, 2015 12:58:42 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

I found it funny. But I also don't think here is anything wrong with teaching my daughter not to out herself into certain situations which can make her vulnerable to rape. I think it is stupid not to take precautions. For example, I never set my drink down if I'm out and go to the bathroom. Too easy for some guy to out something int it. Following the logic in this thread, I shouldn't tell my daughter to make sure she never leaves her drink unattended because no one should be putting anything in it.

Right. We know that theft is wrong, and yet we still make a normal practice of locking our cars, homes, and taking other measures to keep our valuables safe. How is this any different? Teach the wrongness of rape (although that's self-evident, just like the wrongness of any other crime life theft or murder) AND take measures to be safe and aware of your surroundings.

I don't see people are interpreting this as "don't teach your daughter to be safe". There's nothing wrong with teaching your daughters to be safe AND your sons not to be rapists.

[justme]

Unfortunately the wrongness of rape is not self evident. Yea you ask most people what they see when they think of rape and they see a violent, bloody action against a stranger. Not someone being really drunk or the other continuing after the first said no. There was a really scary survey recently of guys on subject of rape, I think it was already discussed here before though.

Here it is if you didn't see it nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/01/lots-of-men-dont-think-rape-is-rape.html

[Miss Tequila]

Mar 19, 2015 13:15:03 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:12:51 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

How am I defending men?

You fall more on the women are still responsible for avoiding it side.

No. Men are responsible for the crime. But that doesn't absolve women of personal responsibility. If I left my car unlocked and my purse was stolen, I would take responsibility for not doing everything I could to protect myself. If I picked up some guy in a bar and took him home and he raped and beat the shit out of me I would take responsibility for making a bad choice. The crime is still on the person doing it, but had i made better choices I could have prevented it

Not all crimes can be prevented but that doesn't mean we don't try to stop what we can

[Miss Tequila]

Mar 19, 2015 13:18:10 GMT -5 imawino said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:13:22 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Right. We know that theft is wrong, and yet we still make a normal practice of locking our cars, homes, and taking other measures to keep our valuables safe. How is this any different? Teach the wrongness of rape (although that's self-evident, just like the wrongness of any other crime life theft or murder) AND take measures to be safe and aware of your surroundings.

I don't see people are interpreting this as "don't teach your daughter to be safe". There's nothing wrong with teaching your daughters to be safe AND your sons not to be rapists.

Except I djnt think teaching a kid not to rape is truly going to stop rapes. No more than I think teaching a kid not to murder will stop murders. There are fucked up people out there

[imawino]

Mar 19, 2015 13:18:28 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:15:06 GMT -5 justme said:

There's no was to be inclusive of all unless anything you write is bogged down of his or her man or woman he or she. And it just gets so ridiculous to read all that.

I personally hate reading through something with endless his or her.

Or you just remove the reference: 

#1: Don't put drugs in anyone's drinks
#2: When you see someone walking by themselves, leave them alone
#3: If you pull over to help someone whose car has broken down by the side of the road; remember to not rape them. 

etc... 

Yes, I agree that is a simple option.  It is also an option to acknowledge the actual fact that most rapes are perpetrated by a man on a woman.  And to not get super bent out of shape because every post on the internet does not encompass every outlying scenario. 

[MJ2.0]

Mar 19, 2015 13:18:10 GMT -5 imawino said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:13:22 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Right. We know that theft is wrong, and yet we still make a normal practice of locking our cars, homes, and taking other measures to keep our valuables safe. How is this any different? Teach the wrongness of rape (although that's self-evident, just like the wrongness of any other crime life theft or murder) AND take measures to be safe and aware of your surroundings.

I don't see people are interpreting this as "don't teach your daughter to be safe". There's nothing wrong with teaching your daughters to be safe AND your sons not to be rapists.

I know for a fact that there are people on here that DO interpret it as though the only course of action is to teach PEOPLE that rape is wrong.

[Miss Tequila]

Mar 19, 2015 13:18:27 GMT -5 justme said:

Unfortunately the wrongness of rape is not self evident. Yea you ask most people what they see when they think of rape and they see a violent, bloody action against a stranger. Not someone being really drunk or the other continuing after the first said no. There was a really scary survey recently of guys on subject of rape, I think it was already discussed here before though.

Here it is if you didn't see it nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/01/lots-of-men-dont-think-rape-is-rape.html

This article says that a portion of these men aren't educable and those that wouldn't rape but "forcibly have sex" may be educable. That means we can't stop all rapes therefore we need to do what we can to prevent them...

[Virgil Showlion]

laterbloomer: I guess rape jokes are funnier than feminism jokes?

[Lizard Queen]

Mar 19, 2015 13:22:05 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:18:10 GMT -5 imawino said:

I don't see people are interpreting this as "don't teach your daughter to be safe". There's nothing wrong with teaching your daughters to be safe AND your sons not to be rapists.

Except I djnt think teaching a kid not to rape is truly going to stop rapes. No more than I think teaching a kid not to murder will stop murders. There are fucked up people out there

Sometimes rapes aren't as clear-cut though.  Teaching a kid not to have sex with someone who is so drunk that they don't know what is going on, for example.  I recently read a blog post that talked about consent that was really illuminating.  I think that consent is the key, while acknowledging who can consent.

[ArchietheDragon]

Mar 19, 2015 13:27:26 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:22:05 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Except I djnt think teaching a kid not to rape is truly going to stop rapes. No more than I think teaching a kid not to murder will stop murders. There are fucked up people out there

Sometimes rapes aren't as clear-cut though.  Teaching a kid not to have sex with someone who is so drunk that they don't know what is going on, for example.  I recently read a blog post that talked about consent that was really illuminating.  I think that consent is the key, while acknowledging who can consent.

I heard that many college campus are running new versions of anti rape PSAs.  Instead of the old "No means NO" campaigns they are running "Yes means Yes" campaigns to try and foster that idea that you should know that your partner wants to have sex before you keep going.   I thought it was an interesting switch.

[MJ2.0]

Okay, I'm bowing out of this now. Because it's perfectly okay to tell people lock their doors and homes to keep their possessions safe even though we all pretty much know it's wrong to steal, and teach our kids about "stranger danger" and "bad touches" even though we all know it's wrong to kidnap or molest kids.  But even dare to suggest that women take a few measures to ensure their safety (as everyone should BTW) and people lose their shit.

[Miss Tequila]

Mar 19, 2015 13:27:26 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:22:05 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Except I djnt think teaching a kid not to rape is truly going to stop rapes. No more than I think teaching a kid not to murder will stop murders. There are fucked up people out there

Sometimes rapes aren't as clear-cut though.  Teaching a kid not to have sex with someone who is so drunk that they don't know what is going on, for example.  I recently read a blog post that talked about consent that was really illuminating.  I think that consent is the key, while acknowledging who can consent.

I agree with that. I can't imagine expecting a drunk 18 year old guy to know enough not to have sex with a drunk 18 year old girl.

[imawino]

Mar 19, 2015 13:22:05 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:18:10 GMT -5 imawino said:

I don't see people are interpreting this as "don't teach your daughter to be safe". There's nothing wrong with teaching your daughters to be safe AND your sons not to be rapists.

Except I djnt think teaching a kid not to rape is truly going to stop rapes. No more than I think teaching a kid not to murder will stop murders. There are fucked up people out there

That doesn't absolve parents of trying to create good people. And while there are fucked up people out there I do think there are some assaults that can be avoided by teaching young men some important rules.    We have talked to my older stepson over and over about how women impaired by alcohol or drugs cannot give consent.  And no matter what your buddies tell you no always means no. Women who say no are NOT trying to get you to "convince" them.

eta: it looks like a few people beat me to this point. 

[Miss Tequila]

Mar 19, 2015 13:34:23 GMT -5 imawino said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:22:05 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Except I djnt think teaching a kid not to rape is truly going to stop rapes. No more than I think teaching a kid not to murder will stop murders. There are fucked up people out there

That doesn't absolve parents of trying to create good people. And while there are fucked up people out there I do think there are some assaults that can be avoided by teaching young men some important rules.    We have talked to my older stepson over and over about how women impaired by alcohol or drugs cannot give consent.  And no matter what your buddies tell you no always means no. Women who say no are NOT trying to get you to "convince" them.

Agreed. But if the guy is also impaired his judgment is going to be way off, too.

Parents obviously have the responsibility to do their best to raise good people. Given our crime rate in this country, there is a break down. We have theft, murder, rape, etc. so while we need to work to instill morals in our children we need to accept that there are bad people out there and we all must do what we can to protect ourselves

[The Captain]

Mar 19, 2015 13:31:12 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:27:26 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Sometimes rapes aren't as clear-cut though.  Teaching a kid not to have sex with someone who is so drunk that they don't know what is going on, for example.  I recently read a blog post that talked about consent that was really illuminating.  I think that consent is the key, while acknowledging who can consent.

I agree with that. I can't imagine expecting a drunk 18 year old guy to know enough not to have sex with a drunk 18 year old girl.

But wait, doesn't that go both ways?  Why aren't you saying you can't expect a drunk 18yo girl to know enough not to have sex with a drunk 18yo guy?

Let's take that a step further - if we don't allow intoxication as an excuse for drunk driving, why is it ok as an excuse for rape?

[justme]

Mar 19, 2015 13:24:57 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:18:27 GMT -5 justme said:

Unfortunately the wrongness of rape is not self evident. Yea you ask most people what they see when they think of rape and they see a violent, bloody action against a stranger. Not someone being really drunk or the other continuing after the first said no. There was a really scary survey recently of guys on subject of rape, I think it was already discussed here before though.

Here it is if you didn't see it nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/01/lots-of-men-dont-think-rape-is-rape.html

This article says that a portion of these men aren't educable and those that wouldn't rape but "forcibly have sex" may be educable. That means we can't stop all rapes therefore we need to do what we can to prevent them...

I'm not saying don't teach your children to be safe. But I do think it should be children not girls. No one should leave their drink unattended, evaluate whether it's a smart idea to go alone etc etc. Not in a don't get raped concept, but as in there's assholes out there. Because of that view point I wholly disagree with the don't dress provocative talk to girls. But I wouldn't scoff at it if a person was also telling their son not take his shirt off, or wear pants that show off his ass or package, that banned those godforsaken muscle tees. In my experience though, they aren't though.

It's ten percent they say the prevention of teaching that date rape, having sex with drunk people, and continuing to have sex after they say no wouldn't help due to their overwhelming anger. There's twenty percent that could. And it should be noted that it doesn't mean nothing with prevent them raping, just that that method probably won't because they don't care about the rape word.

[Miss Tequila]

Mar 19, 2015 13:41:06 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:31:12 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

I agree with that. I can't imagine expecting a drunk 18 year old guy to know enough not to have sex with a drunk 18 year old girl.

But wait, doesn't that go both ways?  Why aren't you saying you can't expect a drunk 18yo girl to know enough not to have sex with a drunk 18yo guy?

Let's take that a step further - if we don't allow intoxication as an excuse for drunk driving, why is it ok as an excuse for rape?

I actually don't think it is rape. If the girl is really drunk but ihas sex I think that falls under "bad decision" on her part. If she is passed out and he has sex with her, then she didn't consent and it is rape

[milee]

Mar 19, 2015 13:31:12 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:27:26 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Sometimes rapes aren't as clear-cut though.  Teaching a kid not to have sex with someone who is so drunk that they don't know what is going on, for example.  I recently read a blog post that talked about consent that was really illuminating.  I think that consent is the key, while acknowledging who can consent.

I agree with that. I can't imagine expecting a drunk 18 year old guy to know enough not to have sex with a drunk 18 year old girl.

True. I've got two boys and I've been starting to talk to them about how part of being a responsible guy is to avoid being so drunk that they're not making good decisions. Not just drunk driving, but we're talking in very specific terms about how they're likely to be bigger and stronger than most women around them and it's up to them - not the women - to know if the women are sober enough, old enough, not being pressured to consent.

Again, not to derail this thread, so when you get a chance, please head over to the other thread on what we can talk to our boys about. Because I think we're doing our boys a big disservice for assuming they'll know enough to avoid some of this stuff unless we actively start talking to them about it.

[imawino]

Mar 19, 2015 13:29:13 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:22:26 GMT -5 imawino said:

Yes, I agree that is a simple option.  It is also an option to acknowledge the actual fact that most rapes are perpetrated by a man on a woman.  And to not get super bent out of shape because every post on the internet does not encompass every outlying scenario. 

Really time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers/

And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).

I would have to have longer to read this article to be sure but what it seems to do is break it down into a couple of different categories.  "rape" and "other sexual violence".  then it states that the women who are victims of "rape" are almost equal to number of men that are victims of "other sexual violence".  if you added the women who are victims of rape and other sexual violence together you get a MUCH higher number.  

The article continues on to state:  On the other hand, most of us would agree that to equate a victim of violent rape and a man who engages in a drunken sexual act he wouldn’t have chosen when sober is to trivialize a terrible crime. It is safe to assume that the vast majority of the CDC’s male respondents who were “made to penetrate” someone would not call themselves rape victims—and with good reason.

So as to your question "really?"  the answer is yes, really.

[Lizard Queen]

Mar 19, 2015 13:30:13 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Okay, I'm bowing out of this now. Because it's perfectly okay to tell people lock their doors and homes to keep their possessions safe even though we all pretty much know it's wrong to steal, and teach our kids about "stranger danger" and "bad touches" even though we all know it's wrong to kidnap or molest kids.  But even dare to suggest that women take a few measures to ensure their safety (as everyone should BTW) and people lose their shit.

I don't think anyone is advocating for women to act like oblivious idiots.  I think the point of this is to point the finger in the other direction, for a change.  Of course, they should take reasonable precautions.  The problem with that starts when precautions get to a point such that women have less freedom.  So instead of going out and living their lives, getting into elevators alone or doing their laundry when it's convenient for them, they don't for fear of being caught alone.

[Miss Tequila]

Mar 19, 2015 13:45:02 GMT -5 milee said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:31:12 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

I agree with that. I can't imagine expecting a drunk 18 year old guy to know enough not to have sex with a drunk 18 year old girl.

True. I've got two boys and I've been starting to talk to them about how part of being a responsible guy is to avoid being so drunk that they're not making good decisions. Not just drunk driving, but we're talking in very specific terms about how they're likely to be bigger and stronger than most women around them and it's up to them - not the women - to know if the women are sober enough, old enough, not being pressured to consent.

Again, not to derail this thread, so when you get a chance, please head over to the other thread on what we can talk to our boys about. Because I think we're doing our boys a big disservice for assuming they'll know enough to avoid some of this stuff unless we actively start talking to them about it.

And I think you have a double standard. I say part of being a responsible female is not getting so drunk that you can't give informed consent. I'm not sure why it is ok to tell a guy not to get drunk but it isn't ok to tell that to a girl

[milee]

Mar 19, 2015 13:43:27 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:41:06 GMT -5 The Captain said:

But wait, doesn't that go both ways?  Why aren't you saying you can't expect a drunk 18yo girl to know enough not to have sex with a drunk 18yo guy?

Let's take that a step further - if we don't allow intoxication as an excuse for drunk driving, why is it ok as an excuse for rape?

I actually don't think it is rape. If the girl is really drunk but ihas sex I think that falls under "bad decision" on her part.

But this is at the heart of many of the recent college rape cases. The girls aren't unconscious, but they're drunk. The boys either don't know or don't care that the girl is too drunk to consent - her eyes are open, right? This is exactly the sort of stuff IMHO we need to start talking to our boys about... and I am.  And given some of their responses, I'm glad I am starting these talks. And for your daughters' sakes, you should all hope that all parents of boys start having these talks.

[milee]

Mar 19, 2015 13:47:20 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:45:02 GMT -5 milee said:

True. I've got two boys and I've been starting to talk to them about how part of being a responsible guy is to avoid being so drunk that they're not making good decisions. Not just drunk driving, but we're talking in very specific terms about how they're likely to be bigger and stronger than most women around them and it's up to them - not the women - to know if the women are sober enough, old enough, not being pressured to consent.

Again, not to derail this thread, so when you get a chance, please head over to the other thread on what we can talk to our boys about. Because I think we're doing our boys a big disservice for assuming they'll know enough to avoid some of this stuff unless we actively start talking to them about it.

And I think you have a double standard. I say part of being a responsible female is not getting so drunk that you can't give informed consent. I'm not sure why it is ok to tell a guy not to get drunk but it isn't ok to tell that to a girl

I wasn't the one that said it isn't OK to tell a girl.  Not sure who you're arguing that point with, but it's not me. 

[Miss Tequila]

Mar 19, 2015 13:49:45 GMT -5 milee said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:43:27 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

I actually don't think it is rape. If the girl is really drunk but ihas sex I think that falls under "bad decision" on her part.

But this is at the heart of many of the recent college rape cases. The girls aren't unconscious, but they're drunk. The boys either don't know or don't care that the girl is too drunk to consent - her eyes are open, right? This is exactly the sort of stuff IMHO we need to start talking to our boys about... and I am.  And given some of their responses, I'm glad I am starting these talks. And for your daughters' sakes, you should all hope that all parents of boys start having these talks.

I have plenty of talks with my daughter about not getting so drunk that you make bad decisions. She has some personal resonaibility in this too

[Miss Tequila]

Mar 19, 2015 13:50:20 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

nice double standard.. if a woman is drunk and is coerced into sex,  it's rape.  But if it's a man then it's a trivial thing? 

Are you for real?   

I don't have a clue what you are taking about

[Lizard Queen]

Mar 19, 2015 13:47:20 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:45:02 GMT -5 milee said:

True. I've got two boys and I've been starting to talk to them about how part of being a responsible guy is to avoid being so drunk that they're not making good decisions. Not just drunk driving, but we're talking in very specific terms about how they're likely to be bigger and stronger than most women around them and it's up to them - not the women - to know if the women are sober enough, old enough, not being pressured to consent.

Again, not to derail this thread, so when you get a chance, please head over to the other thread on what we can talk to our boys about. Because I think we're doing our boys a big disservice for assuming they'll know enough to avoid some of this stuff unless we actively start talking to them about it.

And I think you have a double standard. I say part of being a responsible female is not getting so drunk that you can't give informed consent. I'm not sure why it is ok to tell a guy not to get drunk but it isn't ok to tell that to a girl

You're right, you should tell that to a girl as well.  I read something a while ago that says that it takes much less alcohol to affect a woman.  I guess it's just that much easier for a women to get ridiculously drunk without realizing it?    ...especially if they're not experienced drinkers and don't know their limits yet.

[Miss Tequila]

Mar 19, 2015 13:50:34 GMT -5 milee said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:47:20 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

And I think you have a double standard. I say part of being a responsible female is not getting so drunk that you can't give informed consent. I'm not sure why it is ok to tell a guy not to get drunk but it isn't ok to tell that to a girl

I wasn't the one that said it isn't OK to tell a girl.  Not sure who you're arguing that point with, but it's not me. 

Sorry...everytime in this thread I mention teaching my daughter to be safe, I've been told I'm putting the responsibility on the victim. So it was more of a collective "you" than towards you...lol