Deleted
Joined: Oct 12, 2024 7:24:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 14:52:59 GMT -5
The university said it. Most of the posters on this thread dodged the question. At least one called it a gray area. Several are making arguments that make it sound like they do view that case as her being raped. I don't see how anyone possibly could, but he was expelled for sexual misconduct, while she wasn't punished at all, and reading some of the posts here, I think at least a few posters are totally fine with that outcome, as mind boggling as I personally find that stance. I was having a different conversation and had to go back to read it. There is no way that should be considered rape or assault on the facts given.
|
|
ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
Community Leader
♡ ♡ BᏋՆᎥᏋᏉᏋ ♡ ♡
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:51 GMT -5
Posts: 43,130
Location: Inside POM's Head
Favorite Drink: Chilled White Zin
|
Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Mar 20, 2015 14:53:12 GMT -5
I can tell if a drink is a regular highball or if someone's poured a double just by the taste. One small sip will let me know if it's mixed too strong.
If I order a highball in a bar or lounge I usually order it neat with the mixer on the side.
I can tell by looking at the glass if it's holding the standard 1¼ oz or double that.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 12, 2024 7:24:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 14:53:30 GMT -5
Who's taking her up.. the bartender or the guy sitting in the bar? ETA.. I'm not sure it will change my answer, but I'm curious. bartender.
bar fly actually called cops when he figured out what was going on.
I agree with the person who said this is akin to slipping a drug in her drink... there was something in there that she did not know was in there.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 14:53:50 GMT -5
I don't know about that...one drink shouldn't make a person black out for the night. I would suspect drugs. Well, I know about that. lol...fair enough. I wasn't there...but damn, what kind of a lightweight??
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 42,246
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Mar 20, 2015 14:54:02 GMT -5
Real case: Bar tender gives a girl drinks, she's having a bad day, and he wants to "make her feel better." Makes them about 3/4 times stronger than a usual bar drinks. She has about 4 drinks that he gives her, so more like 12. A guy sitting at the bar makes some comment about "what are you trying to do, dude, kill her?"
She gets all sloppy drunk. Takes her up to the apartment above the bar. Attempts to have sex with her. He gets charged with rape.
Is he guilty of rape, or did she consent because she voluntarily drank what he gave her? That's why I support a clear line like we do for driving. Even if it varies slightly state to state. Anything else makes it easier for predators of both sexes and makes consent a grayer area than it needs to be.
Not everyone drinks often. Some people don't know their limits and for many who do exceed their limits, it might not be clear the first or first few times one has done so. I would say he is guilty. IMO she was not able to consent. Same would be true if it was a female bartender preying on a man having a bad day.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,622
|
Post by swamp on Mar 20, 2015 14:54:29 GMT -5
The university said it. Most of the posters on this thread dodged the question. At least one called it a gray area. Several are making arguments that make it sound like they do view that case as her being raped. I don't see how anyone possibly could, but he was expelled for sexual misconduct, while she wasn't punished at all, and reading some of the posts here, I think at least a few posters are totally fine with that outcome, as mind boggling as I personally find that stance. I don't think she was raped.
however, I think it was his side of the story. Hers may be different.
I've heard the testimony at too many rape trials to take one side's word at face value.
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 42,246
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Mar 20, 2015 14:55:57 GMT -5
Girl is hanging out with friends that she trusts. One friend is going to the kitchen to make another drink and offers to make her one, not a move out of the ordinary. Girl wakes up early the next day without memory of the rest of the night but it feels like something did happen. Real life scenario. Yikes.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 14:56:52 GMT -5
Real case: Bar tender gives a girl drinks, she's having a bad day, and he wants to "make her feel better." Makes them about 3/4 times stronger than a usual bar drinks. She has about 4 drinks that he gives her, so more like 12. A guy sitting at the bar makes some comment about "what are you trying to do, dude, kill her?"
She gets all sloppy drunk. Takes her up to the apartment above the bar. Attempts to have sex with her. He gets charged with rape.
Is he guilty of rape, or did she consent because she voluntarily drank what he gave her? That's why I support a clear line like we do for driving. Even if it varies slightly state to state. Anything else makes it easier for predators of both sexes and makes consent a grayer area than it needs to be.
Not everyone drinks often. Some people don't know their limits and for many who do exceed their limits, it might not be clear the first or first few times one has done so. I would say he is guilty. IMO she was not able to consent. Same would be true if it was a female bartender preying on a man having a bad day.
So I need to blow something before I can have sex? And here I thought that was just foreplay....
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 12, 2024 7:24:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 14:56:53 GMT -5
Real case: Bar tender gives a girl drinks, she's having a bad day, and he wants to "make her feel better." Makes them about 3/4 times stronger than a usual bar drinks. She has about 4 drinks that he gives her, so more like 12. A guy sitting at the bar makes some comment about "what are you trying to do, dude, kill her?"
She gets all sloppy drunk. Takes her up to the apartment above the bar. Attempts to have sex with her. He gets charged with rape.
Is he guilty of rape, or did she consent because she voluntarily drank what he gave her? Let's imagine this scenario for a minute. Your 17yo daughter is at her first "grown up" party. She's never had alcohol other than with her family. In order to "fit in" she has a few beers and before the 100 pound waif realizes what's going on some guy is on top of her. She is sure she doesn't remember saying yes. The guy is 19 and sober as a stone. He knew she was drunk but was sure she just wanted to have a good time, after all - she had a few drinks - right? So tell me, who is ok with this scenario? Who HONESTLY believes she got what she had coming? Girl is hanging out with friends that she trusts. One friend is going to the kitchen to make another drink and offers to make her one, not a move out of the ordinary. Girl wakes up early the next day without memory of the rest of the night but it feels like something did happen. Real life scenario. Swamp's story....... Bad! He watched her get sloppy drunk, and he wasn't, but he tried to have sex with her anyway ..... rape. The Captain, nope, not ok with that. Bad! The girl made a bad decision trying to fit in, but the worst thing she deserved was maybe a hangover the next day and her parent's ire. The 19yo sober jackass doesn't get a pass. Cookies.... if something was slipped into her drink, bad! Even if nothing happened.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,622
|
Post by swamp on Mar 20, 2015 15:00:06 GMT -5
bartender.
bar fly actually called cops when he figured out what was going on.
In this case, I think the bartender had obvious nefarious intentions. Plus the added bonus of legal liability in that setting. But again, I would wonder somewhere between drinks 1-3 she didn't figure out that she was getting drunk at, what I would expect, would a quicker than normal pace. I think she was having a rotten day and wanted to get drunk, but not that drunk.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 15:00:42 GMT -5
bartender.
bar fly actually called cops when he figured out what was going on.
In this case, I think the bartender had obvious nefarious intentions. Plus the added bonus of legal liability in that setting. But again, I would wonder somewhere between drinks 1-3 she didn't figure out that she was getting drunk at, what I would expect, would a quicker than normal pace. Depending on what I ate that day, 1 drink can have me buzzing or nothing at all....but I still know the effect the alcohol is having on me. It is up to me to decide when I've had enough. I don't rely on a drink count to tell me it is ok to keep drinking.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 15:01:16 GMT -5
How did this turn into a game of rape/not rape? We are 12 pages in...I'm surprised rape is still being discussed
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 38,233
|
Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 15:01:25 GMT -5
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 42,246
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Mar 20, 2015 15:03:44 GMT -5
So.
1) Guy 1 gives girl drinks so that he can more easily sneak up on her later, throw her down, tie her up and rape her.
2) Guy 2 gives girl drinks because he thinks she is attractive and they are in a social setting like a bar or party, they go home together and she has sex with him, even though she might not have, had she not been drinking so much.
Same thing in your book then? I know I'm not being asked, but I'll answer anyway. Different. But that's why I like the idea of a measurable intoxication level. There's a difference in consent levels in #2 depending on how intoxicated she is. Mildly buzzed, not harm no foul, if either has regrets they'll do better in the future. She's too impaired to drive? Maybe this should be the cutoff line. Perhaps he needs to know this is legal rape territory and proceed or not with that in mind. She's on the verge of blacking out for her first time, said yes or didn't stop him - rape. I'd say this as well for girl on guy, guy on guy.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,622
|
Post by swamp on Mar 20, 2015 15:04:23 GMT -5
Sure. However all the quotes in the story are from third parties. He's not saying he had to pull her off him, her friends are saying they had to pull her off of him. The texts are going to be public record. That guy got railroaded, hard. Hopefully he wins his case. that's why I dont' think it is rape. however, I don't know the whole story.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,622
|
Post by swamp on Mar 20, 2015 15:05:14 GMT -5
So.
1) Guy 1 gives girl drinks so that he can more easily sneak up on her later, throw her down, tie her up and rape her.
2) Guy 2 gives girl drinks because he thinks she is attractive and they are in a social setting like a bar or party, they go home together and she has sex with him, even though she might not have, had she not been drinking so much.
Same thing in your book then? I know I'm not being asked, but I'll answer anyway. Different. But that's why I like the idea of a measurable intoxication level. There's a difference in consent levels in #2 depending on how intoxicated she is. Mildly buzzed, not harm no foul, if either has regrets they'll do better in the future. She's too impaired to drive? Maybe this should be the cutoff line. Perhaps he needs to know this is legal rape territory and proceed or not with that in mind. She's on the verge of blacking out for her first time, said yes or didn't stop him - rape. I'd say this as well for girl on guy, guy on guy.
so we should all have portable breathalyzers with us so we can measure our BAC before sex?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 12, 2024 7:24:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 15:07:49 GMT -5
And only the girls get breathalyzer test? If the guy is intoxicated, he's still responsible, but she isn't? .... Or do they need to maintain equal intoxication levels so that liability does not fall to one or the other?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 12, 2024 7:24:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 15:08:08 GMT -5
Hey, maybe someone can make an app for that...
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 42,246
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Mar 20, 2015 15:11:46 GMT -5
That's why I support a clear line like we do for driving. Even if it varies slightly state to state. Anything else makes it easier for predators of both sexes and makes consent a grayer area than it needs to be.
Not everyone drinks often. Some people don't know their limits and for many who do exceed their limits, it might not be clear the first or first few times one has done so. I would say he is guilty. IMO she was not able to consent. Same would be true if it was a female bartender preying on a man having a bad day.
So I need to blow something before I can have sex? And here I thought that was just foreplay.... Only if you blow on something to drive I suppose. My expectation is if you went to the hospital or police station and tested at an alcohol level above the max required for consent, you could use that as grounds to charge rape if you so chose.
Not all adults who have sex with underage kids get charged, nor all drivers who drive with a too high blood alcohol level. They are all doing illegal things risking the legal consequences. This would be no different in Optimistland.
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 42,246
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Mar 20, 2015 15:13:34 GMT -5
I know I'm not being asked, but I'll answer anyway. Different. But that's why I like the idea of a measurable intoxication level. There's a difference in consent levels in #2 depending on how intoxicated she is. Mildly buzzed, not harm no foul, if either has regrets they'll do better in the future. She's too impaired to drive? Maybe this should be the cutoff line. Perhaps he needs to know this is legal rape territory and proceed or not with that in mind. She's on the verge of blacking out for her first time, said yes or didn't stop him - rape. I'd say this as well for girl on guy, guy on guy.
so we should all have portable breathalyzers with us so we can measure our BAC before sex? Do you want to? I didn't say they were required.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,622
|
Post by swamp on Mar 20, 2015 15:13:44 GMT -5
so we should all have portable breathalyzers with us so we can measure our BAC before sex? "Darling, you are so beautiful, I'm so hot for you, please blow into this so that I can document your BAC, you don't mind that I bring in a couple of witnesses and a notary to get your consent, right?" Blow here, honey!
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 12, 2024 7:24:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 15:14:34 GMT -5
How many drinks do you have to trick me into having before i'll mistake that for a breathalyzer...
|
|
Lizard Queen
Senior Associate
103/2024
Joined: Jan 17, 2011 22:19:13 GMT -5
Posts: 14,659
|
Post by Lizard Queen on Mar 20, 2015 15:18:46 GMT -5
In this case, I think the bartender had obvious nefarious intentions. Plus the added bonus of legal liability in that setting. But again, I would wonder somewhere between drinks 1-3 she didn't figure out that she was getting drunk at, what I would expect, would a quicker than normal pace. Depending on what I ate that day, 1 drink can have me buzzing or nothing at all....but I still know the effect the alcohol is having on me. It is up to me to decide when I've had enough. I don't rely on a drink count to tell me it is ok to keep drinking. A lot of these stories involve inexperienced college students who may not have learned their limits yet.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 38,233
|
Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 15:20:22 GMT -5
So I need to blow something before I can have sex? And here I thought that was just foreplay.... Only if you blow on something to drive I suppose. My expectation is if you went to the hospital or police station and tested at an alcohol level above the max required for consent, you could use that as grounds to charge rape if you so chose. ... So someone has sex with me, then goes to the hospital or police station, tests at a certain level, and I raped her?
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,622
|
Post by swamp on Mar 20, 2015 15:20:23 GMT -5
Depending on what I ate that day, 1 drink can have me buzzing or nothing at all....but I still know the effect the alcohol is having on me. It is up to me to decide when I've had enough. I don't rely on a drink count to tell me it is ok to keep drinking. A lot of these stories involve inexperienced college students who may not have learned their limits yet.
The 45 year old me knows exactly how much I can have. the 18 year old me wasn't quite as in tune with my limits. Generally, 18 year olds don't recognize any limits.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 12, 2024 7:24:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 15:21:43 GMT -5
Another reason kids should drink at home first...
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 38,233
|
Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 15:27:28 GMT -5
... Generally, 18 year olds don't recognize any limits. For some this is an excuse and some them are held criminally liable regardless.
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Mar 20, 2015 15:28:13 GMT -5
Read the second and third page of the Slate article that was posted on the previous page. Several courts operate on the assumption that a male is incapable of getting an erection if he's blackout drunk. So he doesn't need a breathalyzer. If he can get it up, he's drunk but not blackout drunk, so still responsible for his decisions. Science completely disagrees, but whatever. Men are predators, women are victims, and that's how they should be treated or presumed in the eyes of the law. Amen. Glad I don't have sons right now to be honest. No, but from the attitude of some on this board you should be terrified you have daughters...
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 12, 2024 7:24:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 15:30:25 GMT -5
Read the second and third page of the Slate article that was posted on the previous page. Several courts operate on the assumption that a male is incapable of getting an erection if he's blackout drunk. So he doesn't need a breathalyzer. If he can get it up, he's drunk but not blackout drunk, so still responsible for his decisions. Science completely disagrees, but whatever. Men are predators, women are victims, and that's how they should be treated or presumed in the eyes of the law. Amen. Glad I don't have sons right now to be honest. No, but from the attitude of some on this board you should be terrified you have daughters... To whose attitudes are you referring? If I may ask?
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 42,246
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Mar 20, 2015 15:32:55 GMT -5
Only if you blow on something to drive I suppose. My expectation is if you went to the hospital or police station and tested at an alcohol level above the max required for consent, you could use that as grounds to charge rape if you so chose. ... So someone has sex with me, then goes to the hospital or police station, tests at a certain level, and I raped her? I don't know Bill, did you? What certain level did she test at?
|
|