billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 15:35:15 GMT -5
So someone has sex with me, then goes to the hospital or police station, tests at a certain level, and I raped her? I don't know Bill, did you? What certain level did she test at?
How the hell would I know what level she will test at when she goes to the hospital or police station?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 20, 2015 15:41:18 GMT -5
We might be changing our religion so I can sign up my boys to be monks.
This whole conversation is scarring the shit out of me!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 15:43:47 GMT -5
I was thinking legal prostitution or arranged marriages Lena....
(and where were you last night?)
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 20, 2015 15:46:27 GMT -5
I don't know Bill, did you? What certain level did she test at?
How the hell would I know what level she will test at when she goes to the hospital or police station? Do you need to know? All you would need to be able to tell is legal or not legal. It doesn't need to be rocket science or really hard to figure out.
But perhaps you would prefer the undefined level like we have now. We could do something similar with driving under the influence. Screw BAC levels, we will just leave it up to individual cops. If they feel you are drunk when they stop you, you are and if not you aren't.
Better? That way most of the posters on the board can be happy I'm not trying to propose a line up from black out drunk for consent for men(or women).
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Mar 20, 2015 15:49:22 GMT -5
No, but from the attitude of some on this board you should be terrified you have daughters... To whose attitudes are you referring? If I may ask? Posters who think it's ok for a sober guy to have sex with a girl who is unable to give informed consent because she's had too much to drink. Because yanno, not knowing your limit or having too much to drink is implicit permission for anyone to have a go at you. You asked for it, right?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 15:51:01 GMT -5
I'm confused? I don't remember seeing that. Can you post a link, or tell me which post you are referring to? Thanks.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 20, 2015 15:51:20 GMT -5
I was thinking legal prostitution or arranged marriages Lena....
(and where were you last night?) Well, one of my kids have already been promised to giramomma - so I am safe there. She is a true YMer and is raising her kids right - I am not worried. I was grocery shopping - my exciting life should be made into a movie
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 15:55:29 GMT -5
How the hell would I know what level she will test at when she goes to the hospital or police station? Do you need to know? All you would need to be able to tell is legal or not legal. It doesn't need to be rocket science or really hard to figure out.
But perhaps you would prefer the undefined level like we have now. We could do something similar with driving under the influence. Screw BAC levels, we will just leave it up to individual cops. If they feel you are drunk when they stop you, you are and if not you aren't.
Better? That way most of the posters on the board can be happy I'm not trying to propose a line up from black out drunk for consent for men(or women).
Please consider what you have suggested. We have sex, then at some future point in time I go to the hospital or police station and am given a blood alcohol test. You are charged with rape based on the number from that test.
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Mar 20, 2015 15:57:16 GMT -5
Guys shouldn't be such idiots and women need to hold their liquor better (I know, body weight, and all that)...and not be around these morons.
I didn't mean that to sound like it is the victims fault...it never is.
AND YES, NO MEANS NO...HOW MANY OF THESE GIRLS/LADIES CAN EVEN SPEAK COHERENTLY?
IT'S A MESS.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 20, 2015 15:57:26 GMT -5
And only the girls get breathalyzer test? If the guy is intoxicated, he's still responsible, but she isn't? .... Or do they need to maintain equal intoxication levels so that liability does not fall to one or the other?
My proposal is gender neutral.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 16:00:04 GMT -5
No, but from the attitude of some on this board you should be terrified you have daughters... To whose attitudes are you referring? If I may ask? Pick me...pick me...I know this...lol
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 20, 2015 16:02:25 GMT -5
Do you need to know? All you would need to be able to tell is legal or not legal. It doesn't need to be rocket science or really hard to figure out.
But perhaps you would prefer the undefined level like we have now. We could do something similar with driving under the influence. Screw BAC levels, we will just leave it up to individual cops. If they feel you are drunk when they stop you, you are and if not you aren't.
Better? That way most of the posters on the board can be happy I'm not trying to propose a line up from black out drunk for consent for men(or women).
Please consider what you have suggested. We have sex, then at some future point in time I go to the hospital or police station and am given a blood alcohol test. You are charged with rape based on the number from that test. Bills, are you really assuming it is just the blood alcohol level with no other evidence?
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quince
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Post by quince on Mar 20, 2015 16:09:34 GMT -5
I wouldn't be able to tell the strength of a drink by tasting it. I don't drink much and have only been "drunk" once, after 4 gin and tonics. I am 35.
If you order a drink, you expect the standard strength. Slipping more in is drugging someone. Making a drink stronger than expected hoping to get someone drunk, unless you inform them that you are doubling up, is drugging someone. Even if ALL YOU WANT TO DO is see what your straight-laced friend is like when she's tipsy, if you stealthily slip her extra alcohol, you are drugging her, you asshole.
If you drug someone to get them to have sex with you, yes, I think you are a rapist.
If someone pours their own drink/orders their own drink and they are made to typical strength, and gets tipsy, and you have sex with them (Even sober!) I do not think you are a rapist, unless they are exhibiting overt signs that they are impaired(which not everyone does), such as slurring, stumbling, etc. If someone is obviously impaired, and you, while not impaired, take advantage of that, you're probably a rapist. No, if they are really hot and you aren't, consenting to sex with you is not sign of impairment.
ETA: I watch when people make me drinks. I also drink slowly and gauge my reaction. I also don't drink more than two drinks in a sitting, except that one time. However, while I do believe it's a good idea to be aware of your situation, I don't think CONSTANT VIGILANCE should be the expectation of every person out drinking, all the time. That's ridiculous.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 20, 2015 16:09:35 GMT -5
You forgot the word consensual. And I know it sounds crazy, but that's because you haven't accepted the paradigm that our colleges and courts have. Men are presumed to be predators, and women are presumed to be victims, unless proven otherwise. So yeah, if you have consensual sex but she later offers even a tiny shred of "evidence" backing her up as the victim, or portraying you as a predator, then she wins. You're a rapist, and your career is pretty much over. At this time we as a society have decide that no one under the age of 18 can give consent to sex to someone over 18, a legal adult.
This is considered true whether it is a female adult having sex with a high schooler, a 19 year old having sex with a 17 1/2 year old or a male adult having sex with a high schooler. Legally all under age folks can not give consent.
Both of you seem to be assuming my proposal is gender focused which it is not. It also protects that guy who doesn't give consent but has an erection and isn't black out drunk yet but is way passed buzzed. All I have proposed is that we have an intoxication level for consent. I'm not sure the best way to do that, but it would give more legal standing to any man or woman who was raped who felt they were unable to give consent and it was shown they were drunk enough that the ability to consent is assumed not to exist.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 16:11:11 GMT -5
Please consider what you have suggested. We have sex, then at some future point in time I go to the hospital or police station and am given a blood alcohol test. You are charged with rape based on the number from that test. Bills, are you really assuming it is just the blood alcohol level with no other evidence?
... My expectation is if you went to the hospital or police station and tested at an alcohol level above the max required for consent, you could use that as grounds to charge rape if you so chose. ... "(U)se that as grounds to charge" must mean something different to you than it does to me if my assumption is wrong.
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quince
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Post by quince on Mar 20, 2015 16:11:42 GMT -5
You forgot the word consensual. And I know it sounds crazy, but that's because you haven't accepted the paradigm that our colleges and courts have. Men are presumed to be predators, and women are presumed to be victims, unless proven otherwise. So yeah, if you have consensual sex but she later offers even a tiny shred of "evidence" backing her up as the victim, or portraying you as a predator, then she wins. You're a rapist, and your career is pretty much over. At this time we as a society have decide that no one under the age of 18 can give consent to sex to someone over 18, a legal adult.
This is considered true whether it is a female adult having sex with a high schooler, a 19 year old having sex with a 17 1/2 year old or a male adult having sex with a high schooler. Legally all under age folks can not give consent.
Both of you seem to be assuming my proposal is gender focused which it is not. It also protects that guy who doesn't give consent but has an erection and isn't black out drunk yet but is way passed buzzed. All I have proposed is that we have an intoxication level for consent. I'm not sure the best way to do that, but it would give more legal standing to any man or woman who was raped who felt they were unable to give consent and it was shown they were drunk enough that the ability to consent is assumed not to exist.
18 years is a myth- this is state specific, and there may be local laws that I don't know about.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Mar 20, 2015 16:15:50 GMT -5
To whose attitudes are you referring? If I may ask? Pick me...pick me...I know this...lol oped - There's your answer. Answered with a laugh which makes it even more disturbing in my book coming from the mother of two daughters.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 16:16:57 GMT -5
No means no is kind of bs also imo. No can quickly go to to maybe or yes with drink or without. I'd hate to be a guy.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 16:18:34 GMT -5
... Both of you seem to be assuming my proposal is gender focused which it is not. ... Hmmm. I am male. I had you being charged for rape in my example so I assumed that I as a male could be the person raped.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 16:19:35 GMT -5
No means no is kind of bs also imo. No can quickly go to to maybe or yes with drink or without. I'd hate to be a guy. And back again with a good night's sleep.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 16:23:02 GMT -5
At this time we as a society have decide that no one under the age of 18 can give consent to sex to someone over 18, a legal adult.
This is considered true whether it is a female adult having sex with a high schooler, a 19 year old having sex with a 17 1/2 year old or a male adult having sex with a high schooler. Legally all under age folks can not give consent.
Both of you seem to be assuming my proposal is gender focused which it is not. It also protects that guy who doesn't give consent but has an erection and isn't black out drunk yet but is way passed buzzed. All I have proposed is that we have an intoxication level for consent. I'm not sure the best way to do that, but it would give more legal standing to any man or woman who was raped who felt they were unable to give consent and it was shown they were drunk enough that the ability to consent is assumed not to exist.
You don't know the best way to do this, because short of a breathalyzer or a blood test there is no way to quantify intoxication. Hence the jokes. This is also the point that Bills is trying to make... how in the hell is he supposed to know what someone else's intoxication level is to make an informed decision to pursue sexual relations? So here's a scenario... Bills goes out to a bar. He meets a woman who is flirting with him. He never sees her consume any alcohol. He takes her home and they have sex, only to find later that she was intoxicated and has gone to the police because she says she was too drunk to consent. Is Bills a rapist? * Bills, I don't have any reason to believe you are a rapist and am just tacking on to your earlier question. Also, there is no way to determine what her alcohol level was when she gave consent considering that she was not under constant observation between that point and the test.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 20, 2015 16:24:18 GMT -5
Bills, are you really assuming it is just the blood alcohol level with no other evidence?
... My expectation is if you went to the hospital or police station and tested at an alcohol level above the max required for consent, you could use that as grounds to charge rape if you so chose. ... "(U)se that as grounds to charge" must mean something different to you than it does to me if my assumption is wrong. A high school age boy has sex with a female teacher. In their opinion it is consensual. However, based on that state's laws, it is statutory rape. The boy's Dad is furious and convinces the boy to press charges. The female teacher will be charged with statutory rape.
So if you Bills choose to have sex with a woman or man who is too intoxicated to give legal consent and is able to show that, then yes you could be charged with raping someone unable to give consent. I believe there is a level of intoxication before blacking out from drinking that it is unreasonable to believe someone can give consent. You might disagree.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 16:27:28 GMT -5
... I believe there is a level of intoxication before blacking out from drinking that it is unreasonable to believe someone can give consent. You might disagree. I don't disagree. I don't think that your proposal will properly address that issue.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 20, 2015 16:28:57 GMT -5
... Both of you seem to be assuming my proposal is gender focused which it is not. ... Hmmm. I am male. I had you being charged for rape in my example so I assumed that I as a male could be the person raped. OK. The verification has to be in a timely manner. You can't just get stinking drunk weeks later and get someone charged any more than it should fly you can charge someone with statutory rape if you wait(to make the rape charge) until your partner becomes legal. I would have to take advantage of you when you were too intoxicated to give consent and it would need to be provable.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 16:29:24 GMT -5
And if the parties maintain drunken equilibrium ?
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Mar 20, 2015 16:32:01 GMT -5
Maybe breathalyzers would be helpful on college campuses--help students learn their limits and judge how drunk they both are.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 20, 2015 16:33:36 GMT -5
A high school age boy has sex with a female teacher. In their opinion it is consensual. However, based on that state's laws, it is statutory rape. The boy's Dad is furious and convinces the boy to press charges. The female teacher will be charged with statutory rape.
So if you Bills choose to have sex with a woman or man who is too intoxicated to give legal consent and is able to show that, then yes you could be charged with raping someone unable to give consent. I believe there is a level of intoxication before blacking out from drinking that it is unreasonable to believe someone can give consent. You might disagree.
Keep in mind Optimist, this goes both ways. Please tell me how you screen out intoxication prior to you having sex with someone. Remember it's not just alcohol, what if someone's on painkillers, cold medicine, ambian sleep drugs, how about if they haven't slept in a long time cause ya know sleep deprivation can be just as debilitating and affects judgement as much as alcohol. Sroo, you are free to advance your own proposals. I am merely trying to address the alcohol one.
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Mar 20, 2015 16:34:03 GMT -5
Oh, for Christ sake, put a heavy duty chastity belt on your daughters.
Really, this is getting bizarre.
How many of you lovely women, have been raped or had a good friend raped...be truthful.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 16:38:38 GMT -5
Hmmm. I am male. I had you being charged for rape in my example so I assumed that I as a male could be the person raped. OK. The verification has to be in a timely manner. You can't just get stinking drunk weeks later and get someone charged any more than it should fly you can charge someone with statutory rape if you wait(to make the rape charge) until your partner becomes legal. I would have to take advantage of you when you were too intoxicated to give consent and it would need to be provable.
So we are at a bar. You agree to go home with me for sex. We have another drink or two to celebrate the decision. We get to my place (by taxi of course). While there, we consume additional alcohol. We lose track of how much. We have sex. We have a good-bye drink. We lose track of time. At some point you leave my place. Then you decide to go get tested. How do we determine that when you gave consent that you was or was not above a certain level of intoxication.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 20, 2015 16:39:39 GMT -5
OK. The verification has to be in a timely manner. You can't just get stinking drunk weeks later and get someone charged any more than it should fly you can charge someone with statutory rape if you wait(to make the rape charge) until your partner becomes legal. I would have to take advantage of you when you were too intoxicated to give consent and it would need to be provable.
Statutory rape is not the same thing... you are either of age to consent or you are not. There is nothing subjective about it. There is nothing subjective to what I propose either.
My example was if one chose to lie about when the sex happened in order to get a charge of statutory rape against a former underage sex partner. It was just clarifying that one couldn't just stroll in somewhere drunk enough and hope to charge someone with rape weeks after sex, just because.
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