Need Advice about DD!!

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I'll beat the dead horse and suggest the books Co-Dependent No More and Boundaries.

[zibazinski]

Please listen to Milee. I made most of the mistakes mentioned after my divorce. My kids still bring it up and think I did it for wrong reasons, as in being afraid of him. One has zero to do with him and the other only contacts him when they want something from him. Same as he did to her.

[thyme4change]

Simply send a one or two line text: "The kids will be available for you to call them on Wednesdays at 6 PM. They can choose to talk or not. We will not be responding to any calls or messages outside that time." Done. No more answering, responding, etc.

This sounds very reasonable.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Mar 19, 2015 11:31:49 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Simply send a one or two line text: "The kids will be available for you to call them on Wednesdays at 6 PM. They can choose to talk or not. We will not be responding to any calls or messages outside that time." Done. No more answering, responding, etc.

This sounds very reasonable.

It does.  Part of me thinks it should include an actual time limit - like 6-7pm is your call time.  If you do not call during that frame, we will not be responding, etc.  Because I can see him calling at like 2 hours later saying 'well, it's call day and it's after 6pm' but that's me. 

[greeniis10]

I haven't read all 3 pages yet, so if this has already been mentioned I apologize, but when he calls can you just put your phone on speaker and talk as a family?  If the kids want to talk then they can but won't be singled out for not wanting to talk just because they didn't say anything and the whole family is in on the conversation.  Just an idea.  But overall, I don't see you having any obligation to make the kids talk to him.

[Angel!]

Mar 19, 2015 11:25:35 GMT -5 milee said:

Mar 19, 2015 11:15:17 GMT -5 Angel! said:

I did talk to him for a bit after some of the posts last night supporting her choice not to talk.  I told him I won't be making her talk.  I also told him that he is an adult & just needs to suck it up & not react emotionally when a child hurts his feelings.  I said he is being manipulative & going to make her feel like she has to say or do the right things to earn love & that isn't right.  A 4 year old should always feel loved & not be worried that love is going to be taken away because they hurt dad's feelings.  And I told him that I am fairly certain his choices will just drive her further away & not have the results he wants.

You're not wrong about any of that. You might want to think twice, though, about having talks like this with him.

From things you said in the past, it sounds like he still has strong emotional attachments (some positive, some negative) to you. And he's selfish enough to use the kids as a way to hurt you and manipulate you. So - and I know this will sound crazy and impossible, but it's true - you being willing to talk to him when he does things like this may actually encourage him to do more things like this because it's a way of getting to you, having more contact with you and controlling you.

Again, you're giving him this power by choosing to interact. It's not like your talk will change him. He's shown that he doesn't care to know or change how he treats you or the kids. So not only will your talk not change him, you might be encouraging him to do more of that type of thing because it's the biggest reaction he can get out of you and the most contact you give him.

The most effective way to handle people like this is to not engage.  It's hard, because he really is an asshole and massively deserves to be told that so you need to deprive yourself of the pleasure of telling him that and being right.  But I'm guessing you're a good enough mom that being willing to deprive yourself the satisfaction of telling him what a jerk he is will be a small price to pay if it means that your choice to disengage means he stops trying to play the game by hurting your kids.

You handle people like him by only sending the bare minimum of communication and ignoring any of their responses or attempts to engage.  For example, after last night's call, set yourself up for success by not calling him back to engage and tell him he's a jerk.  Simply send a one or two line text:  "The kids will be available for you to call them on Wednesdays at 6 PM.  They can choose to talk or not.  We will not be responding to any calls or messages outside that time."  Done.  No more answering, responding, etc.

You actually have a really good point that I hadn't considered.  We almost never talk, I think it was before Christmas the last time we had a phone conversation prior to last night.  I usually ignore his texts, but every once in a while he gets to me & I engage via text, which I know is stupid.  Just a week or so ago he wanted to call & talk & I said there is nothing to talk about.  Then last night it was his idea to call & talk about the situation  And he even said how good it is to talk again.

He is still trying to control me too, but at least I see it now.  Every few weeks he texts with some ridiculous request or demand & then gets upset I won't do what he wants.  Then every so often he goes through the "let's be friends" phase, which I now ignore as well.

[milee]

Exactly. Kind of like that old saying about how you can't win a wrestling match with a pig in mud... you only get dirty and the pig likes it.

[Angel!]

Mar 19, 2015 11:27:20 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Mar 19, 2015 11:22:43 GMT -5 midjd said:

I agree, I think you're well within your rights to suspend or limit contact as much as you want, particularly given the documentation of his deteriorating mental state/relationship with your kids.

Think of it this way. If you do violate a parenting time order,* at worst you can be held in contempt of court after a show cause hearing. You have examples A-Z of your ex's behavior being harmful to your kids' mental health, and good reasons for restricting/eliminating contact until he shows he can be trusted. Your ex has what? A criminal history, drug-related hospitalizations, active warrants -- and absolutely nothing to show that what you did was wrong or unjustified. 

*That's for the normal case. Here the order says parenting time is suspended, so no contact is a fairly reasonable extension.

Not to mention the guy is never going to come to Angel's State to file for a change of parenting time order anyhow with a warrant out for him there. 

Just a few weeks ago he told me he is moving back next summer.  I don't believe it because of the warrant & court stuff he would have to deal with.  But, he did say it.  I think that was in the "I don't understand why you left me" series of texts.  I'll admit I engaged that time because it pissed me off.  Responded with a huge list of crap he has done over the years & then said he shouldn't be questioning why I left, but questioning why I didn't leave sooner.

I've read them before, but I do need to read Codependent No More & Boundaries again. 

Holy crap.  A lightbulb just went off because I'm still thinking about Milee's post.  I really don't think it is about the kids at all.  It is just more ways to mess with me because the old tactics aren't working.  He never asks about the kids, ever.  He texts me random crap sometimes like "just got off work", "hope your having a good day", "goodnight", when he is in his "lets be friends" phase, but doesn't ever ask about the kids.  Even when he is being "nice" he doesn't ask how the kids are.  And for the record, I stopped responding to all those texts a long time ago, he still goes through phases though.

[justme]

I wish it probably wouldn't be so hard to convince him you got a new number and hand him a Google voice number with him not calling the old one. If you just turned off the notifications you'd only see missed calls unless you opened the app (or went online) and could do a select all and delete without reading or hearing anything.

I have visions of you telling him a crazy asshole is harassing you so you changed numbers and want to make sure he has it to contact you. You just don't tell him he's the asshole.

[Deleted]

Mar 19, 2015 12:14:43 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Mar 19, 2015 11:27:20 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Not to mention the guy is never going to come to Angel's State to file for a change of parenting time order anyhow with a warrant out for him there. 

Just a few weeks ago he told me he is moving back next summer.  I don't believe it because of the warrant & court stuff he would have to deal with.  But, he did say it.  I think that was in the "I don't understand why you left me" series of texts.  I'll admit I engaged that time because it pissed me off.  Responded with a huge list of crap he has done over the years & then said he shouldn't be questioning why I left, but questioning why I didn't leave sooner.

I've read them before, but I do need to read Codependent No More & Boundaries again. 

Holy crap.  A lightbulb just went off because I'm still thinking about Milee's post.  I really don't think it is about the kids at all.  It is just more ways to mess with me because the old tactics aren't working.  He never asks about the kids, ever.  He texts me random crap sometimes like "just got off work", "hope your having a good day", "goodnight", when he is in his "lets be friends" phase, but doesn't ever ask about the kids.  Even when he is being "nice" he doesn't ask how the kids are.  And for the record, I stopped responding to all those texts a long time ago, he still goes through phases though.

Yeah, he doesn't want to take care of his kids.  He wants YOU to take care of HIM. 

[Lizard Queen]

I've been trying to convince my brother not to respond to his ex-wife for similar reasons.  I agree that it's advisable to severely limit engagement with people like this. I might tell DD that her dad's thinking isn't quite right, and it's not her fault when he is mean or doesn't keep his promises.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Mar 19, 2015 12:18:51 GMT -5 justme said:

I wish it probably wouldn't be so hard to convince him you got a new number and hand him a Google voice number with him not calling the old one. If you just turned off the notifications you'd only see missed calls unless you opened the app (or went online) and could do a select all and delete without reading or hearing anything.

I have visions of you telling him a crazy asshole is harassing you so you changed numbers and want to make sure he has it to contact you. You just don't tell him he's the asshole.

Didn't somebody on here or the old MSN board (because this was a LONG time ago) once say that they paid for 2 cell lines - one strictly for a parent to call.  They never answered, never looked at it, just paid the bill every month to keep that person out of their life?  I think it might have come up in a discussion about sacred cows. 

[zibazinski]

Amen. Why do you think I'd only GAL for kids already removed permanently from their so-called parents. I had 83 in my class. At the end of the year there were 3 of us left. The ones who had to return children to assholes couldn't take it anymore and quit.

[Chocolate Lover]

As the step mother doing the actual parenting job of a kid with an absentee mom, even if they're not addicts or abusive, the coming and going thing does damage the kid. DSS is much more stable and happy when Mom stays away. She pops up and it's a visit for a couple of hours or so (she hasn't even had him overnight in a long time) and a week or more of roller coaster emotions for him. She lived 5 minutes from us for almost a year and saw him twice. Both times, we initiated it and took him to her. He saw her at Christmas, at her mother's house, and brought him home to us. That's the last time we heard from her. Our numbers haven't changed in more than 10 years and she's FB friends with me. She never asks about him, doesn't call. I have no idea what her phone number is or where she lives. I'll admit to not making much effort, it's better for him. 

(There's lots of history I've left out so you'll just have to take my word for it because I'm not writing a book here. )

[Deleted]

I do get why Angel wants to keep in touch and it doesn't necessarily mean she's enjoying that he's still liking her.  It's scary not knowing where they are, what they're up to or what state their head is in.  You start wondering if they're just going to show up at the door at 3am or pull the kids out of school while you're at work and leave the state. 

[NancysSummerSip]

Angel isn't in an easy position. She has said it before, and I won't say it as well as she did. It's one thing to tell someone (or say it for yourself) that you can completely erase a bad past, an X completely and never ever ever ever let them back into your life in any way, shape or form; no how, no way.

It's another thing to get it accomplished, especially when there are small children involved who aren't old enough to understand what a DDD (dumbass dickheaded douchecanoe) their dear old dad really is. They are getting to the age where they see their friends with their dads, and don't grasp why they don't have the same thing. Even the best wordsmith is at a loss when a small child cries and asks why Dad is not there anymore and why he says mean things and makes promises and then doesn't keep them.

It's torture for a person to get their chain yanked like this. Guilt on one side, pain on the other.

FWIW, I agree on the majority interpretation of the court's order: suspension of parenting means just that. Doesn't matter from what distance the parenting is being attempted. No parental contact should be just that.

Angel, he's a manipulative, sick man. He does not, and will never abide by the rules anyone sets out. He will always be the little kid who pushes the envelope, tests the waters and pokes the establishment in an effort to get his way and get a rise out of anyone around him, just because he can. And when he can't, he'll sulk, whine, threaten and basically revert back to being a three-year-old, because he has no adult coping skills.

You don't have time for this. Your kids should not be exposed to it. They are learning - right now - that this is OK behavior. That when someone begs and cries and pleads and sulks and threatens long enough, they will get what they want. If you still feel you must do it, set the once-a-week call schedule, let him know what it is, tell him there will be no deviations and do not take any other calls or texts from him. If you have to, get a separate phone just for his weekly call and change your personal number. That way, there will be no more calls and texts to you. He can either call the kids on that one day, or not.

[milee]

Mar 19, 2015 13:59:47 GMT -5 NancysSummerSip said:

If you have to, get a separate phone just for his weekly call and change your personal number. That way, there will be no more calls and texts to you. He can either call the kids on that one day, or not.

Easiest way to do this is to keep your existing phone number as the one that only X uses. Get a whole new number and give that one to friends, work, docs, etc. and of course don't give the new number to X.

After a few months of transferring all the people you want to keep in your life to the new number, it will only be X calling/texting on the old number. At that point, you can put that phone away and only look at it at the scheduled time.

BTW, there's nothing that says the schedule has to be weekly. You can make it monthly or annually.

[Deleted]

Mar 19, 2015 14:05:26 GMT -5 milee said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:59:47 GMT -5 NancysSummerSip said:

If you have to, get a separate phone just for his weekly call and change your personal number. That way, there will be no more calls and texts to you. He can either call the kids on that one day, or not.

Easiest way to do this is to keep your existing phone number as the one that only X uses. Get a whole new number and give that one to friends, work, docs, etc. and of course don't give the new number to X.

After a few months of transferring all the people you want to keep in your life to the new number, it will only be X calling/texting on the old number. At that point, you can put that phone away and only look at it at the scheduled time.

BTW, there's nothing that says the schedule has to be weekly. You can make it monthly or annually.

Tell him he can call on their birthdays, then see if he remembers when that is.

[andi9899]

I wouldn't make her. My Baby Daddy is like that too. He was around when it was convenient for him. He would disappear for 6'12 months at a time and then come back and be Disneyland Dad for a few months and then disappear again. Eventually the girls decided they didn't want anything to do with him anymore. Can't say I blame them.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Angel! - you said something about the oldest being excited/happy to talk on the phone with ex.  Is this the "phone calls are cool" thing or is this a bond with ex?  I think he's 7-8ish? 

Because intellectually I get the new phone number thing, the mom part of me is wondering the following:
a. can that kid keep Mom's new # a secret;
b. will he be upset at no talking to dad?  and
c. do they talk or is it just and excited listen to me talk about math class! thing. 

[Deleted]

Mar 19, 2015 14:01:04 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

I do get why Angel wants to keep in touch and it doesn't necessarily mean she's enjoying that he's still liking her. It's scary not knowing where they are, what they're up to or what state their head is in. You start wondering if they're just going to show up at the door at 3am or pull the kids out of school while you're at work and leave the state.

Keeping in touch makes this kind of thing more likely, not less.  If you cut the person out of your life completely, they move on.  They're inherently selfish to begin with.  After a few years they don't think about you or the kids like ever.  As far as they're concerned you don't exist.  They find somebody else to manipulate and abuse.  They become some other codependent person's burden to deal with.

Stats bear this out by the way.  Kidnapping by a parent happens during messy divorces, protracted legal battles, and whatnot.  It almost never happens years after a parent has had all rights terminated.  They fundamentally don't care about you or the kid enough to hold a grudge for several years and show up out of the blue to snatch them.  Sad, but true.

True, but as someone that's been there, it's a hard thing to overcome psychologically.  It's hard to think that he wouldn't be thinking about the kids all the time when I know I would be.

I do think Angel has it really easy to cut him out completely if she wants.  No parenting order, lives far away, in general a pretty unmotivated guy.  When my ex was in jail I never visited or wrote.  Told DS he was sick and couldn't see him and life went on without a hiccup for 6 months.   I couldn't do that now, but thankfully, he's been doing very well.  But, that will change if he starts using again, so I watch him like a hawk. 

[andi9899]

Mar 19, 2015 9:42:26 GMT -5 luckyme said:

Man, can parents f**k up their kids!

My husband spent most of his life being the go between with two parents who both thought they were right and the other wrong.
Personally, they were both screwed up in different ways.  These parental relationships have LONG standing consequences well into adulthood.

And I know everyone is so quick to jump on the therapy train.  Personally, I have not been impressed with that field.  But, they could give you some guidelines.

Just cutting him out of "conversations" is a very simple band aid for a wound that is going to fester and grow ugly over time.  If you can, get his parental rights terminated. He is toxic.

This is not a condemnation of you, but having seen the affects to DH & SIL of bad parenting, I tell my kids be very careful who they have children with; they WILL have an affect on your children for the rest of their lives. 

I took in a child that was a friend of my daughter. Her parents divorced and neither was interested in parenting her, so I let her live with me and didn't ask them for a dime. They did want the youngest since she didn't have a mind of her own and they spent a lot of time using her to hurt each other. I hadn't heard from either in a while since the one I had went to live with her grandfather. My oldest told me yesterday that the youngest has been in and out of the mental hospital for suicidal behavior. She is the same age as my nephew who is in the 6th grade. That poor girl.

[Sam_2.0]

Mar 19, 2015 11:47:33 GMT -5 greeniis10 said:

I haven't read all 3 pages yet, so if this has already been mentioned I apologize, but when he calls can you just put your phone on speaker and talk as a family?  If the kids want to talk then they can but won't be singled out for not wanting to talk just because they didn't say anything and the whole family is in on the conversation.  Just an idea.  But overall, I don't see you having any obligation to make the kids talk to him.

With the ages of your children, I would never allow them to speak to their dad when the phone is NOT on speaker phone. Given the history you should be allowed to hear the entire conversation.

[Tennesseer]

Mar 19, 2015 15:20:23 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

Mar 19, 2015 11:47:33 GMT -5 greeniis10 said:

I haven't read all 3 pages yet, so if this has already been mentioned I apologize, but when he calls can you just put your phone on speaker and talk as a family?  If the kids want to talk then they can but won't be singled out for not wanting to talk just because they didn't say anything and the whole family is in on the conversation.  Just an idea.  But overall, I don't see you having any obligation to make the kids talk to him.

With the ages of your children, I would never allow them to speak to their dad when the phone is NOT on speaker phone. Given the history you should be allowed to hear the entire conversation.

Growing up, we lived in Massachusetts. My mother's mother lived in North Dakota. Throughout most of my mother's life, my grandmother was mean to her.

When we were small kids, my mother did the dutiful daughter thing and called her mother to say hello. To ensure my grandmother was nice to her while on the phone, my mother had one of us four kids on the home phone extension line. My mother made sure my grandmother knew we were also on the line. My grandmother was nice on the phone to my mother and I don't blame my mother one bit for putting us kids in between her and her mother.

[thyme4change]

You can get a pre-paid and give him that number, and then block him from your regular number.  

Even cheaper, you can block him from your regular number and only unblock him on that Wednesdays from 6-7 time frame, and then reblock him.  

[Angel!]

Mar 19, 2015 14:13:33 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Angel! - you said something about the oldest being excited/happy to talk on the phone with ex.  Is this the "phone calls are cool" thing or is this a bond with ex?  I think he's 7-8ish? 

Because intellectually I get the new phone number thing, the mom part of me is wondering the following:
a. can that kid keep Mom's new # a secret;
b. will he be upset at no talking to dad?  and
c. do they talk or is it just and excited listen to me talk about math class! thing. 

He is 6 & I think it is a combination of talking on the phone & the fact it is his dad.  He does miss his dad.  They both talk about how much they want him to come back.  I've told them even if he comes back to the state he won't be living with us.  

[Angel!]

So I've been thinking about everything that has been posted & boundaries in general.  I actually have a phone & phone plan that I can setup to use as the main line.  I tried to do it tonight, but my plan won't let me do it until next week & I think I will have to get a sim card anyway.  But it is something I can do for no cost anyway.

He called tonight.  Sounded like he was watching basketball & had no interest in actually talking to the kids.  Then he texted me 'thank you'.  Not sure why.  So I replied back that we aren't friends & aren't going to be friends & are never getting back together.  Told him to no longer text me, but he can continue calling the kids.  I figure I will work on timeframe boundaries & such later if it comes to that.  My guess is he won't bother to call them for several months now anyway.  His first response was "ok, will never call again.  Will see them at 18".  He then sent several more texts.  I have ignored them all.  I figure I can always block him if I need to as well.

[thyme4change]

I'm glad you are getting some perspective on the situation.  It can be difficult to step back and evaluate what is going on.  Be strong, and stick with your plan.

[Deleted]

Mar 19, 2015 22:21:32 GMT -5 Angel! said:

He is 6 & I think it is a combination of talking on the phone & the fact it is his dad.  He does miss his dad.  They both talk about how much they want him to come back.  I've told them even if he comes back to the state he won't be living with us.  

I dealt with this one for a while.  It was an obvious "get DS to start begging Mom to let Dad come home and make her feel guilty" ploy.   I'm glad he quit that (after I blew up at him a couple times for it), because it really sucks being put in that position where you have to be the bad guy to your kid. 

[CarolinaKat]

Mar 19, 2015 17:55:33 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

You can get a pre-paid and give him that number, and then block him from your regular number.  

Even cheaper, you can block him from your regular number and only unblock him on that Wednesdays from 6-7 time frame, and then reblock him.  

I like this idea. Then I'd tell him the phone will be available for him to call and talk to the kids Thursdays from 6-7 (or whatever) and that's it. Then turn it on at the designated time and back off when it's not in use. Don't check the messages or voice-mails. Adding a simple phone to your plan shouldn't be that much.

Also, please stop texting him.

ETA: if you need to have any other contact with him, set up a dummy e-mail that all his e-mail gets sent to, that way you can contact him if there's actually something you want to do (like send him a pic of the kids or whatever).