Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 18, 2015 21:08:21 GMT -5
Should I make her talk to her father when he calls even if she doesn't want to?
Quick background - Many know my way back story...but more recently, he moved several states away 8 months ago and has not seen her since. He calls off and on, but back in December he got mad at me and stopped calling. Went so far as to hang up when they tried to call him. Fast forward 3 months and he is calling again. Only now she doesn't want to talk to him some of the time...maybe every third call. Sometimes she is sad and doesn't want to talk to him in her sad voice, other nights she is just busy and doesn't want to be interrupted (her words).
How should I handle this?
She is 4
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msventoux
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Post by msventoux on Mar 18, 2015 21:36:39 GMT -5
If she doesn't want to talk to him I wouldn't make her. I see no need to make her be more of an adult about keeping in contact than he was when he was refusing to answer and hanging up on her. Full disclosure-I don't have kids, don't know much about them, and have a huge problem with fathers who are jackasses to their kids and jerk them around emotionally.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 18, 2015 21:40:14 GMT -5
Don't make her.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 21:50:09 GMT -5
I wouldn't make her. What good would it do?
Does es she ever ask to call him?
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taz157
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Post by taz157 on Mar 18, 2015 22:10:17 GMT -5
I agree with others, don't make her.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 18, 2015 22:19:53 GMT -5
Ok, thanks everyone. Yes, Dark, this is the dude that is a complete asshole. And I have not been making her speak to him. But now he is all pissed and insisting I start making her. I just wanted to make sure general consensus was I was doing the right thing before I stand my ground on this issue.
I really think part of the reason she won't talk is because she is hurt and angry at him. After she wouldn't get on the phone tonight he told DS that he was getting a special surprise and she wouldn't. Then he texted me about hurt feelings blah, blah. So I was honest with her and told her Dad was sad she didn't want to talk. She said she didn't want to make Dad sad and says she wants to call him back. Calls him and he says 'you hurt my feelings. I don't want to talk to you' and hangs up. Then she cried.
I see all that as super manipulative and a horrible way to deal with a four year old. He says it is the way you should deal with kids...Rewards and punishment. IDK. Just pissed and now ranting.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Mar 18, 2015 22:28:37 GMT -5
He's an asshole. I wouldn't make her talk to him. She's 4, he's supposedly an "adult".
My mom floated in and out of our lives. Dad never forced us to have contact with her. I didn't talk to her for six months one time when I was oh 16-17 and he didn't push the issue. He knew why I wasn't talking to her.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 18, 2015 22:29:35 GMT -5
If I were you...(all in theory, because I haven't lived your story) I would seek some counseling for your daughter, and talk to the counselor for advice. Maybe a trained professional has a broader range of experiences and ideas for helping your daughter deal with the complications of being more mature at 4 YO than her Dad is at many decades beyond that.
For the most part - I agree that you shouldn't force the relationship, but I've known people who have grown up resenting their mother for a spoiled relationship. People are funny about these things, and I would hope that your daughter would remember that it was her choice. As she gets older, there will be lots of ways for contact to take place that can be on her terms, but if you don't plant the seed now - it might never happen.
The good news is if she does have a fractured relationship with him, she will know for sure that he is an asshole, rather than make him out to be some great guy who you drove away, or whatever thing people tell themselves.
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taz157
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Post by taz157 on Mar 18, 2015 22:33:13 GMT -5
He's definitely being an asshole!
At 4 years old, she has no idea what's going on except that daddy doesn't live there anymore and only calls sporadically. After all, she hasn't seen him in several months. To a 4 year old, that's a long time. Her dad should be acting like an adult, not a child (which how he's been acting).
Out of curiosity, how is he towards the youngest?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 18, 2015 22:34:25 GMT -5
Ok, thanks everyone. Yes, Dark, this is the dude that is a complete asshole. And I have not been making her speak to him. But now he is all pissed and insisting I start making her. I just wanted to make sure general consensus was I was doing the right thing before I stand my ground on this issue. I really think part of the reason she won't talk is because she is hurt and angry at him. After she wouldn't get on the phone tonight he told DS that he was getting a special surprise and she wouldn't. Then he texted me about hurt feelings blah, blah. So I was honest with her and told her Dad was sad she didn't want to talk. She said she didn't want to make Dad sad and says she wants to call him back. Calls him and he says 'you hurt my feelings. I don't want to talk to you' and hangs up. Then she cried.
I see all that as super manipulative and a horrible way to deal with a four year old. He says it is the way you should deal with kids...Rewards and punishment. IDK. Just pissed and now ranting. What the heck? That is just horrible. I wouldn't want her to speak to him every again or at least until she's much much older.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Mar 18, 2015 22:37:09 GMT -5
Ok, thanks everyone. Yes, Dark, this is the dude that is a complete asshole. And I have not been making her speak to him. But now he is all pissed and insisting I start making her. I just wanted to make sure general consensus was I was doing the right thing before I stand my ground on this issue. I really think part of the reason she won't talk is because she is hurt and angry at him. After she wouldn't get on the phone tonight he told DS that he was getting a special surprise and she wouldn't. Then he texted me about hurt feelings blah, blah. So I was honest with her and told her Dad was sad she didn't want to talk. She said she didn't want to make Dad sad and says she wants to call him back. Calls him and he says 'you hurt my feelings. I don't want to talk to you' and hangs up. Then she cried. I see all that as super manipulative and a horrible way to deal with a four year old. He says it is the way you should deal with kids...Rewards and punishment. IDK. Just pissed and now ranting. I just can't even... I'm so sorry that he is being a dick. To a four year old. Who he purports to.love. On the one hand, I think it's totally reasonable for parents to say to their kids "hey, I am a person and what you did just hurt my feelings." On the other hand, following that up by modeling behavior more appropriately demonstrated by a 4 year old is shitty. Shitty shitty Shitty. To do that when the relationship is already fragile is hurtful and will just do further damage. Next time I'd just go ahead and take a message.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 22:37:40 GMT -5
He is an asshole. I'd never advocate again. Ask if she wants to. If she says no, end of story. If he buys son more, even it out yourself.
Asshole. Seriously. Grown ass childish asshole.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 18, 2015 22:45:31 GMT -5
If I were you...(all in theory, because I haven't lived your story) I would seek some counseling for your daughter, and talk to the counselor for advice. Maybe a trained professional has a broader range of experiences and ideas for helping your daughter deal with the complications of being more mature at 4 YO than her Dad is at many decades beyond that. For the most part - I agree that you shouldn't force the relationship, but I've known people who have grown up resenting their mother for a spoiled relationship. People are funny about these things, and I would hope that your daughter would remember that it was her choice. As she gets older, there will be lots of ways for contact to take place that can be on her terms, but if you don't plant the seed now - it might never happen. The good news is if she does have a fractured relationship with him, she will know for sure that he is an asshole, rather than make him out to be some great guy who you drove away, or whatever thing people tell themselves. She is starting in some feelings/group therapy type class soon. There is also a behavioral specialist (I think that is what she is called) coming to her school to observe occasionally. So maybe I can talk to her about this, I'm a little unclear on her role. Basically she has started hitting in school to the point where they are concerned. This just started a few weeks ago when she first started to refuse to talk to him. So I'm sure it is all connected somehow. It is odd because when she talks about him you can tell she has built him up as this awesome guy she misses so much. But then she doesn't want to speak to him. It actually confuses me.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 18, 2015 22:46:53 GMT -5
He's definitely being an asshole! At 4 years old, she has no idea what's going on except that daddy doesn't live there anymore and only calls sporadically. After all, she hasn't seen him in several months. To a 4 year old, that's a long time. Her dad should be acting like an adult, not a child (which how he's been acting). Out of curiosity, how is he towards the youngest? Since the youngest doesn't talk yet he has had no interaction since he left. I'm not sure what will happen there because the kid will likely never really think of him as dad.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 18, 2015 22:47:55 GMT -5
Ok, thanks everyone. Yes, Dark, this is the dude that is a complete asshole. And I have not been making her speak to him. But now he is all pissed and insisting I start making her. I just wanted to make sure general consensus was I was doing the right thing before I stand my ground on this issue. I really think part of the reason she won't talk is because she is hurt and angry at him. After she wouldn't get on the phone tonight he told DS that he was getting a special surprise and she wouldn't. Then he texted me about hurt feelings blah, blah. So I was honest with her and told her Dad was sad she didn't want to talk. She said she didn't want to make Dad sad and says she wants to call him back. Calls him and he says 'you hurt my feelings. I don't want to talk to you' and hangs up. Then she cried. I see all that as super manipulative and a horrible way to deal with a four year old. He says it is the way you should deal with kids...Rewards and punishment. IDK. Just pissed and now ranting. Asshole.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 18, 2015 22:48:27 GMT -5
He is an asshole. I'd never advocate again. Ask if she wants to. If she says no, end of story. If he buys son more, even it out yourself. Asshole. Seriously. Grown ass childish asshole. Yeah, I seriously learned my lesson there. I really should have known better.
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justme
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Post by justme on Mar 18, 2015 22:48:39 GMT -5
I don't think an ex of mine would still be breathing if he got upset when his daughter didn't want to talk to him and then when she changes her mind he hangs up on her!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 22:49:13 GMT -5
That isn't confusing. Talking to the reality would shatter the illusion...
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Mar 18, 2015 23:03:22 GMT -5
I don't have kids. I have witnessed my nieces/nephews develop some 'bad communication' skills from the way their parents handle things. Like the Silent Treatment. Or the Who ever yells the loudest/makes the biggest scene wins.
I'm NOT saying you are doing this... it's just a generic example: I don't think you want to teach your kid that NOT talking to someone is a good way to 'punish' them. I'm assuming my siblings and their spouse didn't sit their kids down when they were 10 or 11 and have a talk about how the Silent Treatment is a useful way to manipulate people or how Yelling the Loudest/making the biggest scene gets people to back down. I suspect the kids witnessed it from childhood and saw that that was how you handle disagreements. I also think that by the time a kid has practiced a bad communication skill and possibly perfected it - it's NOT the time to tell them to stop doing it. I don't think that works really well.
My two cents are: I would think that it's ok if the kid doesn't want to talk to her dad when he calls... but I think she should probably be encouraged to atleast attempt something - even if it's just "good night" or "good bye" when your conversation is over. Otherwise, you kinda send the signal that watching TV or finishing playing with some toy or just pouting is reason enough to get out of doing something 'polite' that's seen as unpleasant.
This isn't about your kid 'growing to love' her dad - it's more about some basic 'polite actions'.
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taz157
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Post by taz157 on Mar 18, 2015 23:04:50 GMT -5
I'm glad she's starting some type of therapy soon. I'm sorry for the youngest. How is your oldest doing with all of it? for the kids and you dealing with the aftermath.
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finnime
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Post by finnime on Mar 19, 2015 6:24:21 GMT -5
Therapy is a good idea. And from my own experience with the same situation, I'd say that you need to be the adult here, to protect your daughter. Tell your ex that DD is only 4, and too young to not be harmed by his behavior. He needs to treat her well, or cannot talk with her, starting now. The therapist can help her learn to speak up about what she is feeling and needs.
My DS was 12 when I started insisting he tell his father that he didn't want to talk with him, or see him that day. DS's therapist explained to me that DS was awfully young to have that burden, so I stopped insisting and just told XH no on his behalf. Eventually DS started an email relationship with his father that worked okay for a while.
Best to your DD.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Mar 19, 2015 7:11:42 GMT -5
AW hugs Angel and to your kids too.
Talk to the school about DD and the douchecanoe. They can't help if they don't know about the issue.
How verbal is your DD? With my son, between 2.5-4 or so was really, really rough because his verbal skills were not up to par and he'd get frustrated. At the younger end of it, he'd hit, push/shove and bite. And because he is a big kid, he could (and has) hurt people physically.
With your DD, she probably doesn't know the words to express the tangled mess that is her feelings are about Dad. But she needs some kind of outlet for those feelings and to know that it's ok to have messy emotions about him. Maybe painting or chalk or something she can make. And if she wants to destroy it afterwards, that works for me.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2015 7:38:44 GMT -5
Well, I think you did the right thing in telling her that it made Dad sad that she wouldn't talk to him. I think it's a matter of respect to take phone calls and not just say "well, I don't want to to talk to you", but he was a complete prick to hang up on her after she called back. That was an incredibly childish thing to do to a 4 year old. From now on I wouldn't push the issue at all. I wouldn't get in the way of them communicating, but if she doesn't want to talk to him, no prodding. Zero.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 19, 2015 7:48:26 GMT -5
Angel!, I'm so sorry. This just plain stinks! It's wonderful you're working to get her some therapy and having someone to talk to yourself. That can be of a great deal of help when dealing with these issues. In the meantime, I definitely wouldn't force the child to talk to someone she doesn't wish to talk to - I don't particularly care how he feels about it!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2015 7:56:57 GMT -5
It is odd because when she talks about him you can tell she has built him up as this awesome guy she misses so much. But then she doesn't want to speak to him. It actually confuses me. My guess is she doesn't want "reality Dad" fucking up her "awesome Dad" fantasy.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 19, 2015 7:57:28 GMT -5
I wouldn't make her talk to him.
You gave it a try and she was willing to take the phone call. He was a complete asshole and hung up on here. How dare he do that to his daughter! If he wasn't such a selfish prick maybe it'd dawn on him her behavior is a direct result of his actions and be understanding.
Since he was an asshole when you tried to foster a relationship, I wouldn't make her take his calls anymore. She's a 4 year old, she doesn't understand that her daddy has issues he refuses to work out.
You're not a bitch, you are not a bad person, a bad ex-wife or a bad mother. Screening the calls makes you a GOOD mother.
He's a bad lousy excuse of a father. That he cannot see that is his own problem.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Mar 19, 2015 7:57:53 GMT -5
*hands waiving in the air like I just don't care*
As a child that was forced by my mom to maintain a relationship with my biological dad, I relationship that should have ended a long time ago: I say don't push it.
No matter how hurtful, ignorant, childish he was, I had to love and accept him because he was my father. All it did it turn me into a doormat that would accept to be ignored yet be there when he suddenly felt like he wanted to be a father.
Now he is using my younger brother for emotional blackmail. He doesn't call me for thins he needs, but things my younger brother need. He will pay for his other kids school tuition because I am not close to them and couldn't care less but call me last minute about my brothers tuition not paying paid and about to be kick out of school. How do I know? Last year and as recently as Monday: they need $700 or he can continue to go to class.
> Therapy is a good step forward (I am damaged, I should know). > Have her say hi to do the whole Polite thing but put an end to it once it gets to that point. > that point is the "hanging up" because that is emotional abuse, I should know.
Your ex is an ass... Good luck!
I am with Dark on this one... My mom spend her whole life trying to make up for the fact I had a shitty father that decided once he divorced her that also meant he divorced me. I think it would had been much easier on both of us that contact ceased the day they divorced vs the years of "one visit" so often, the promises that were broken, getting your hopes up and getting them slashed down, the feeling that you are just not good enough.
My wife father passed away at 2 and I remember her telling me to be grateful because at least I knew my dad. My answer was: is it better at 6 to know your daddy is never coming home and accepting it or spending your day by the door waiting for him yet he never comes? Knowing that your dad will never attend your soccer game or each game that he promise to attend looking for him and never seeing him?
My wife got her heart broken once and it healed, as a kid I got my heart broken over and over again and just when I would give and it would start to heal he would pop in wanting to be a dad just long enough to break it again and the healing process would start again.
So really what is better? Get hurt once and heal or get hurt, heal, get hurt again, heal only to restart the process.
That was my life after my parents divorce. My priority in his eyes varied based on who he was fucking, seeing, married to, spending time with at the time. And I was always pulled out of the ashes to make in appearance so he could prove to his new lady friends he was a model father only to be forgotten once he sealed the deal.
I was his "rent a child" before people coined the term so he could get laid,
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2015 7:59:55 GMT -5
That story about him hanging up on her and making her cry made me cringe. I'm glad you'll be getting support from a therapist- she's so young and impressionable you want to do the right thing to help her through this. My brief background: also divorced a mean, manipulative asshole and tried to figure out what kind of relationship to encourage between my son and him. DS was 12, though, so better-equipped to talk about his feelings. Thoughts in no particular order:
1. My gut instinct is also to let her decide whether she wants to talk to him. You can tell your Ex it's up to him to nurture a relationship that motivates her to want to talk to him. I also like the idea of just having her say "Goodbye" after you talk to him. Can you stay on another line or keep your phone on speakerphone? That way you'll know exactly what he says. Keep a log.
2. There are other ways to communicate. She can draw him a picture or color one, or send him a picture of herself dressed up for Halloween, for a school event, etc. She can tell you what to write to him and you can write it down. May as well impart a few literacy skills while you're at it! D is for Daddy, etc. This lets her communicate on her terms. My Ex was so manipulative that eventually I restricted communications between DS and him to faxes; the faxes were sent to a friend (who is now my DH) who blackened out all the manipulative stuff before passing it on to us. E-mail could work, too.
3. She may as well learn to deal with assholes- she'll meet more. Some of the worst mistakes I've made in my life have been trying to make peace with those who want war, and trying to compromise with those for whom there is no compromise. You've been a good example already by divorcing her father and showing her that sometimes getting the heck out is the wisest decision. Whatever she learns about dealing with her father on her own terms will serve her later on in life.
4. Please make sure she's around good men who giver her positive messages, whether they're family members or friends. She needs to know that there ARE good men and that she's worthy of being loved by a good man.
5. It's probably best to try to maintain some contact (even e-mail or snail mail). When I was going through this, my now-DH told me that if I cut off access between my Ex and DS completely, DS might grow up with some fantasy impression of a perfect, loving Daddy that Mean Mommy wouldn't let him contact. You need to protect your daughter (and teach her ways to protect herself) but cutting off contact completely probably isn't the answer.
I hope for a happy ending for you and your kids. It's certainly possible. The weekend before last we drove to a family wedding and there were 5 of us in the car: DH and me, DS, our wonderful DDIL and our BEAUTIFUL baby granddaughter. DS decided to ride in the back with his wife and baby. It's wonderful to see what's come together out of the ashes. You've already done the hard part by divorcing him.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Mar 19, 2015 8:00:31 GMT -5
It is odd because when she talks about him you can tell she has built him up as this awesome guy she misses so much. But then she doesn't want to speak to him. It actually confuses me. My guess is she doesn't want "reality Dad" fucking up her "awesome Dad" fantasy. Bing bing bing bing bing We got a winner!!! My wife has a fantasy of who her dad and who he could have been. She doesn't know better, he died when he was 2. In her eyes he is perfect. I would fantasize about my father changing also, daydream about it, think of us bounding like my friends dad, paying attention to me like my friends dad only for "real dad" to show up and fuck it all up.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2015 8:03:30 GMT -5
I am with Dark on this one... My mom spend her whole life trying to make up for the fact I had a shitty father that decided once he divorced her that also meant he divorced me. I think it would had been much easier on both of us that contact ceased the day they divorced vs the years of "one visit" so often, the promises that were broken, getting your hopes up and getting them slashed down, the feeling that you are just not good enough. Well and good if you can do that, but even shitty Dad's have rights, so even if they only show up every so often or call once a year, you can't really deny them this "parenting" time. Well, Angel probably can, because she has him by the short and curlies. He can't come back to her state to take her to court.
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