whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 19, 2015 8:03:56 GMT -5
Didn't read the responses, sorry if this has been said already.
I am a very firm believer in not pushing ANY kind of relationship on children. Beyond basic politeness they don't have to like, talk, kiss, hug or anything else another person if they don't want to, ESPECIALLY if the other party is an adult.
I am no Dr Phil, but to me there is a huge imbalance in most of child/adult relationships and I never want my kid to feel like he has to do something simply bc the other side is "bigger" than him (not in size, obviously)
So, no, absolutely not, I would not make my kid talk on the phone if he didn't want to.
I would say to him that it's entirely up to him and I support him in whatever he wants to do. and I would not tell him how the other adult feels about him actions, bc I wouldn't want him to do things out of guilt.
In my house, you are not allowed to be rude and/or cruel, but you don't have to be "nice by force" either. Sometimes there is a very fine line, but I try.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Mar 19, 2015 8:16:29 GMT -5
Ok, thanks everyone. Yes, Dark, this is the dude that is a complete asshole. And I have not been making her speak to him. But now he is all pissed and insisting I start making her. I just wanted to make sure general consensus was I was doing the right thing before I stand my ground on this issue. I really think part of the reason she won't talk is because she is hurt and angry at him. After she wouldn't get on the phone tonight he told DS that he was getting a special surprise and she wouldn't. Then he texted me about hurt feelings blah, blah. So I was honest with her and told her Dad was sad she didn't want to talk. She said she didn't want to make Dad sad and says she wants to call him back. Calls him and he says 'you hurt my feelings. I don't want to talk to you' and hangs up. Then she cried. I see all that as super manipulative and a horrible way to deal with a four year old. He says it is the way you should deal with kids...Rewards and punishment. IDK. Just pissed and now ranting. You don't punish anyone, especially a kid, buy withholding love and affection.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Mar 19, 2015 8:20:31 GMT -5
I am with Dark on this one... My mom spend her whole life trying to make up for the fact I had a shitty father that decided once he divorced her that also meant he divorced me. I think it would had been much easier on both of us that contact ceased the day they divorced vs the years of "one visit" so often, the promises that were broken, getting your hopes up and getting them slashed down, the feeling that you are just not good enough. Well and good if you can do that, but even shitty Dad's have rights, so even if they only show up every so often or call once a year, you can't really deny them this "parenting" time. Well, Angel probably can, because she has him by the short and curlies. He can't come back to her state to take her to court. I am a rabid father's rights person, but no parent (mother or father) has the right to screw up their kids' emotional state. I would make it very clear that if he wanted contact it would need to be consistent, positive, and regular. If he cant' do that or if he tried to fuck up the poor kid I would spend every last dime in court getting parental rights terminated.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Mar 19, 2015 8:24:19 GMT -5
I couldn't have said it better. (And I'm sorry you went through that.) Angel, I agree with the others. You are not out of line at all, and your ex was a complete scumbag for trying to hurt a 4yo's feelings. It is a very fine line to walk. I agree with others that cutting off contact completely is liable to backfire and end up giving her the illusion of an absent (but perfect) father. But the bandaid process Carl described can be excruciating. I think monitoring any contact that takes place and not pushing that she talk with him is the best you can do.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Mar 19, 2015 9:11:55 GMT -5
Angel, I think your DD is incredibly lucky she has you as her one excellent parent. Heaven knows she needs someone who is stable, kind and strong. Her sperm donor (I hate to call him her Dad after that incident) does not fit the bill.
Don't force the communication. Let her let you know if and when. If your XH calls back pleading, wheedling, demanding or whining about it, remind him that after this most recent incident, you will not allow your child to be hurt like that. It's not about him and his self-centered, do-what-I-want-when-I want attitude. He cannot be an adult and a parent part of the time. The good news is that at age four, she has a lot of time ahead of her to be influenced by other adults, male and female, who will be in her life for the good. The bad news is that at age four, it's a long, long time to be without her daddy. It wasn't her choice, or yours. And that's the reality she will learn at some point. No one made Daddy sick, or angry or made him leave. Daddy had choices and he made one that did not include everyone.
ETA: And hell no, he cannot give your DS a "Special Surprise" and leave her out. That's using your kids as a weapon against one another. Whatever it is, it's a hell no, absolutely no way. Your kids are equally treated and equally loved by you, and if he cannot deal with it, then that's his problem.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2015 9:18:04 GMT -5
I'm going to assume that DS doesn't get any "special surprise" either. It was just something he said, DS will ask about it for a while and check the mailbox periodically, but nothing will arrive.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 19, 2015 9:37:17 GMT -5
I'm glad she's starting some type of therapy soon. I'm sorry for the youngest. How is your oldest doing with all of it? For the most part it doesn't appear to bother him. But he does get sad sometimes. I've signed him up for the group therapy/class thing as well. After seeing all the problems DD is having, I am guessing he is having problems too, but he just copes different & holds it all instead of lashing out at the world like DD does.
ETA - he does talk to his Dad every time he calls & is generally excited to talk to him.
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luckyme
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Post by luckyme on Mar 19, 2015 9:42:26 GMT -5
Man, can parents f**k up their kids!
My husband spent most of his life being the go between with two parents who both thought they were right and the other wrong. Personally, they were both screwed up in different ways. These parental relationships have LONG standing consequences well into adulthood.
And I know everyone is so quick to jump on the therapy train. Personally, I have not been impressed with that field. But, they could give you some guidelines.
Just cutting him out of "conversations" is a very simple band aid for a wound that is going to fester and grow ugly over time. If you can, get his parental rights terminated. He is toxic.
This is not a condemnation of you, but having seen the affects to DH & SIL of bad parenting, I tell my kids be very careful who they have children with; they WILL have an affect on your children for the rest of their lives.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 19, 2015 9:56:55 GMT -5
A very helpful tool for managing this situation - no matter what you decide on forcing her to talk or not - is to be clear about a schedule and terms for the X communicating with you and the kids. That schedule may be once a week on this day at this time, it may be once a month on this day at this time, it may be once a year on a birthday or it may be never. But you need to choose the schedule and enforce it.
There's been a long pattern here, so it's probably hard for you to see but you're all still in the mode of him pulling all the strings. He decides when to call, if he'll call, who can talk, who will talk, etc. and you all jump and react to it. That gives him all the control and power over the situation and he's proven many times he can't handle that power responsibly. And it's not reasonable for you to always be in "clean up" and defense mode.
Let your X know what the scheduled time for calls is. During that time, he's welcome to call and if the kids want to talk they will. If he calls outside that time, then those calls go to voice mail.
Sounds minor, but setting up a call schedule/time would create a huge positive shift in the power of the relationship. Allows you and the kids to be prepared for a call or not. Allows the kids to be thinking in advance about whether they want to talk and about what. Allows you all a little time to think before acting since it's a built in mandatory waiting period. And above all, it stops his ability to throw emotional grenades at you and the kids at random.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2015 9:59:09 GMT -5
You really do have a huge advantage with him being so far away and the warrant in your state. There's really nothing he can do if you never answer the phone.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2015 10:00:43 GMT -5
A very helpful tool for managing this situation - no matter what you decide on forcing her to talk or not - is to be clear about a schedule and terms for the X communicating with you and the kids. That schedule may be once a week on this day at this time, it may be once a month on this day at this time, it may be once a year on a birthday or it may be never. But you need to choose the schedule and enforce it.
There's been a long pattern here, so it's probably hard for you to see but you're all still in the mode of him pulling all the strings. He decides when to call, if he'll call, who can talk, who will talk, etc. and you all jump and react to it. That gives him all the control and power over the situation and he's proven many times he can't handle that power responsibly. And it's not reasonable for you to always be in "clean up" and defense mode.
Let your X know what the scheduled time for calls is. During that time, he's welcome to call and if the kids want to talk they will. If he calls outside that time, then those calls go to voice mail.
Sounds minor, but setting up a call schedule/time would create a huge positive shift in the power of the relationship. Allows you and the kids to be prepared for a call or not. Allows the kids to be thinking in advance about whether they want to talk and about what. Allows you all a little time to think before acting since it's a built in mandatory waiting period. And above all, it stops his ability to throw emotional grenades at you and the kids at random.
A schedule is HUGE. It helped me a lot in my situation. The stress level went way down.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 19, 2015 10:03:26 GMT -5
There's really nothing he can do if you never answer the phone. And choose not to share his emotional grenades with the kids. You do not need to repeat whatever he texts, calls, emails or sends you via telegram to the kids. You are the mom and you are the only one who's demonstrating any ability to consider the needs of the kids. Just because he texts that he's upset, no need for the kids to ever know that.
Is the call during the scheduled time? OK, answer and if you and the kids want to talk - talk. If not - politely explain that and hang up. Is the call outside the scheduled time? Don't answer. Choose when and if you want to listen to voice mails. There's nothing that requires you to, BTW. Delete works just fine and if you're honest about it, you'll know that 99% of his messages should be deleted before you listen to them as they contain nothing but attempts to hurt. Same thing with texts, mail, etc. Delete, delete, delete. No need for the kids to know anything about them.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 19, 2015 10:05:07 GMT -5
AW hugs Angel and to your kids too. Talk to the school about DD and the douchecanoe. They can't help if they don't know about the issue. How verbal is your DD? With my son, between 2.5-4 or so was really, really rough because his verbal skills were not up to par and he'd get frustrated. At the younger end of it, he'd hit, push/shove and bite. And because he is a big kid, he could (and has) hurt people physically. With your DD, she probably doesn't know the words to express the tangled mess that is her feelings are about Dad. But she needs some kind of outlet for those feelings and to know that it's ok to have messy emotions about him. Maybe painting or chalk or something she can make. And if she wants to destroy it afterwards, that works for me. She is actually extremely verbal for her age. But, I do think she is maybe too young to identify why she feels upset sometimes. It almost seems like she just has this constant anger & sadness in her, so it doesn't take much to push her over the limit. And then she just doesn't know how to control herself or calm down when she is so upset.
She actually makes me so sad for her. When you talk to her about her behavior (much later after she is calm) often she will cry & tell me that she wants to be good, but she just doesn't know how to be good.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 19, 2015 10:10:30 GMT -5
I'm going to assume that DS doesn't get any "special surprise" either. It was just something he said, DS will ask about it for a while and check the mailbox periodically, but nothing will arrive. In theory he was going to buy all the kids shoes & had even told me that earlier. But, he was also going to send them a card at thanksgiving & presents at Christmas. So yeah, not holding my breath, LOL.
The hilarious thing is DS misunderstood what he said & thought he said no one is getting a surprise because of DD. Since before that very moment DS never knew there might be a special surprise, he didn't care at all he suddenly wasn't getting one. So he won't even be checking the mailbox, which is for the best anyway. He doesn't need more broken promises.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 19, 2015 10:15:26 GMT -5
I would not allow him any contact with the kids whatsoever. Change your phone, move, whatever. Am I legally allowed to do that? I don't want to do anything that could bite me in the ass later.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Mar 19, 2015 10:19:01 GMT -5
I would not allow him any contact with the kids whatsoever. Change your phone, move, whatever. Am I legally allowed to do that? I don't want to do anything that could bite me in the ass later. Is there any type of custody or visitation order in place?
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Mar 19, 2015 10:32:53 GMT -5
Calls him and he says 'you hurt my feelings. I don't want to talk to you' and hangs up. Then she cried. That would be the last time he spoke to my child without a court order.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Mar 19, 2015 10:35:19 GMT -5
I would not allow him any contact with the kids whatsoever. Change your phone, move, whatever. Am I legally allowed to do that? I don't want to do anything that could bite me in the ass later. What does your custody agreement say?
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Mar 19, 2015 10:35:37 GMT -5
AW hugs Angel and to your kids too. Talk to the school about DD and the douchecanoe. They can't help if they don't know about the issue. How verbal is your DD? With my son, between 2.5-4 or so was really, really rough because his verbal skills were not up to par and he'd get frustrated. At the younger end of it, he'd hit, push/shove and bite. And because he is a big kid, he could (and has) hurt people physically. With your DD, she probably doesn't know the words to express the tangled mess that is her feelings are about Dad. But she needs some kind of outlet for those feelings and to know that it's ok to have messy emotions about him. Maybe painting or chalk or something she can make. And if she wants to destroy it afterwards, that works for me. She is actually extremely verbal for her age. But, I do think she is maybe too young to identify why she feels upset sometimes. It almost seems like she just has this constant anger & sadness in her, so it doesn't take much to push her over the limit. And then she just doesn't know how to control herself or calm down when she is so upset.
She actually makes me so sad for her. When you talk to her about her behavior (much later after she is calm) often she will cry & tell me that she wants to be good, but she just doesn't know how to be good.
Can you ask her to identify an emotion and when she says anger/angry suggest kicking the soccer ball really hard until she's not so angry? I used to blow a lot of frustration out in v-ball. I had to stop because of the pregnancies but I think it's healthier for me and the kids to start playing again. ETA - or building something out of clay/legos and then knocking it over? Or just squishing playdoh or a stress ball around? Some way to channel some of her emotions so they get out?
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Mar 19, 2015 10:43:23 GMT -5
My parents split when I was 2 and I don't remember them ever together. When I was a kid I thought my dad lived a long drive away but truth be told he lived within 5-10 miles of us at any given time when he still lived in the same state. By the time he moved out of state when I was 8 I would go months without seeing him and he tried to get me to move with him not because he wanted me to but to spite my mom. I visited him two or three times over the years and we spoke once every few months on the phone alternating who called who every time. That ended when I turned 18 as neither of us picked up the phone and called the other one again. Anyways like Dark and others said in my opinion I would have been better off had I just cut contact with him earlier in my life. It would have led to less resentment from me and my mom and grandfather (mom's dad) in particular wouldn't have felt as bad about the entire situation. My mom always wanted me to have a relationship with my dad which is normal but I realized years ago that we never had one in the first place. Half-assed phone calls and sporadic visits where we really didn't do much weren't going to fix something that was destroyed over the years. I realize as an adult I can reach out to him but I just don't see the point because there's nothing to salvage.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 19, 2015 11:03:03 GMT -5
Am I legally allowed to do that? I don't want to do anything that could bite me in the ass later. Is there any type of custody or visitation order in place? I had to go find the paperwork. What it actually says is "All parenting time for the father is suspended indefinitely". There is no mention of contact or phone calls.
So I don't really know what that means. I just assumed it means that I don't have to let him see them or visit them. Does that extend to all contact?
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 19, 2015 11:06:08 GMT -5
I would not allow him any contact with the kids whatsoever. Change your phone, move, whatever. Am I legally allowed to do that? I don't want to do anything that could bite me in the ass later. This was very similar to the concern that MPL went through. She wanted to not only do the right thing (allow child/parent access) but make sure that she wasn't doing anything unreasonable or illegal that might hurt her case if there was a legal fight later.
Just like in MPL's case, the father usually does have the right to contact with the kids unless a court has determined that the contact is harmful to the kids (and unfortunately, the courts usually rule that just about every parent that isn't actively trying to murder their child in front of 57 witnesses is granted some type of contact. Not sure in your case since your order suspends contact, might want to check with your lawyer.
But... just because your DH is allowed contact does not mean that he can have constant contact or contact whenever he wishes and on his terms and schedule. So a major way to protect yourself and your children emotionally is to stop allowing him to determine when he wants that contact. Because he's not deciding he wants contact because it's good for the kids, he's initiating contact when he's drunk or lonely or angry or wants to push you around or wants someone to pick him up or needs some amusement or needs to still feel like a Big Man or is curious or wants to manipulate things or wants to keep you on a leash or wants to hurt you or wants to feel a little bit of power in an otherwise powerless life or, or, or. So stop making yourself and your children available to that.
Any court would be supportive of you telling him that you are not preventing contact at all and to make sure you're always there for the contact and that it's at a time that's good for the children, that you make the children available for calls at _________ (insert day) at __________ (insert time.) Because that's exactly how courts handle it when they're asked to settle these issues. They don't tell one parent - OK, just call or text at any time or any day and the other parent and kids will make themselves available to you; they make a set time so the parameters are clear and everybody understands how it works.
Please, for your and your kids' emotional protection, pick a schedule, tell him what the schedule is and stick to it. That allows him all the legal access he's entitled to, gives him a built in cooling off period so he's not doing the equivalent of drunk dialing you guys all the time at whim, makes you look like the good and reasonable person, protects you and your kids from his attempts to control you from afar and allows you and kids time to think and prepare.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2015 11:09:43 GMT -5
Is there any type of custody or visitation order in place? I had to go find the paperwork. What it actually says is "All parenting time for the father is suspended indefinitely". There is no mention of contact or phone calls.
So I don't really know what that means. I just assumed it means that I don't have to let him see them or visit them. Does that extend to all contact?
Well, that's pretty harsh. I think you can easily get away with never answering your phone and moving without telling him. Even in my case when he just got out of jail, it said "Father is to receive reasonable parenting time, and until further notice that time is to be supervised". I do think the once a week phone call time is appropriate though. No middle of the night texts about what a bitch you are or calls outside the specified time.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 19, 2015 11:12:31 GMT -5
Document everything. Keep voicemails and texts.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 19, 2015 11:15:17 GMT -5
And really thank you everyone! Last night when he got angry I had some self-doubt & was wondering if maybe I was the bad guy here & maybe I should be forcing her to talk to him. I have to admit I am biased in this because I could care less if she talks to him, part of me is glad she is saying no when she isn't in the mood. But, I worried that maybe because of my bias I was not making a good decision.
I did talk to him for a bit after some of the posts last night supporting her choice not to talk. I told him I won't be making her talk. I also told him that he is an adult & just needs to suck it up & not react emotionally when a child hurts his feelings. I said he is being manipulative & going to make her feel like she has to say or do the right things to earn love & that isn't right. A 4 year old should always feel loved & not be worried that love is going to be taken away because they hurt dad's feelings. And I told him that I am fairly certain his choices will just drive her further away & not have the results he wants.
If nothing else, this just proves to me that even outside of the drugs & alcohol issues, he is just a manipulative ass & we are all better off with him far away. It is sad how long it took me to recognize how manipulative he is. And I'm glad it isn't just me that is outraged that he would hang up on DD after saying how sad he was she wouldn't talk to him. I just can't wrap my head around the logic that it is ok to treat a child that way.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Mar 19, 2015 11:19:14 GMT -5
It is never okay to treat a child that way. He's a waste of air and DNA.
I like the schedule idea. That pattern caiwau mentioned sucks. Been there done that. I don't wish that kind of torment on anyone.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 19, 2015 11:21:56 GMT -5
Btw, why is it your job to pay for some other brothers school tuition? When did you become a "parent" as opposed to the actual sperm donor?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Mar 19, 2015 11:22:43 GMT -5
I had to go find the paperwork. What it actually says is "All parenting time for the father is suspended indefinitely". There is no mention of contact or phone calls.
So I don't really know what that means. I just assumed it means that I don't have to let him see them or visit them. Does that extend to all contact?
Well, that's pretty harsh. I think you can easily get away with never answering your phone and moving without telling him. Even in my case when he just got out of jail, it said "Father is to receive reasonable parenting time, and until further notice that time is to be supervised". I do think the once a week phone call time is appropriate though. No middle of the night texts about what a bitch you are or calls outside the specified time. I agree, I think you're well within your rights to suspend or limit contact as much as you want, particularly given the documentation of his deteriorating mental state/relationship with your kids. Think of it this way. If you do violate a parenting time order,* at worst you can be held in contempt of court after a show cause hearing. You have examples A-Z of your ex's behavior being harmful to your kids' mental health, and good reasons for restricting/eliminating contact until he shows he can be trusted. Your ex has what? A criminal history, drug-related hospitalizations, active warrants -- and absolutely nothing to show that what you did was wrong or unjustified. *That's for the normal case. Here the order says parenting time is suspended, so no contact is a fairly reasonable extension.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 19, 2015 11:25:35 GMT -5
I did talk to him for a bit after some of the posts last night supporting her choice not to talk. I told him I won't be making her talk. I also told him that he is an adult & just needs to suck it up & not react emotionally when a child hurts his feelings. I said he is being manipulative & going to make her feel like she has to say or do the right things to earn love & that isn't right. A 4 year old should always feel loved & not be worried that love is going to be taken away because they hurt dad's feelings. And I told him that I am fairly certain his choices will just drive her further away & not have the results he wants.
You're not wrong about any of that. You might want to think twice, though, about having talks like this with him.
From things you said in the past, it sounds like he still has strong emotional attachments (some positive, some negative) to you. And he's selfish enough to use the kids as a way to hurt you and manipulate you. So - and I know this will sound crazy and impossible, but it's true - you being willing to talk to him when he does things like this may actually encourage him to do more things like this because it's a way of getting to you, having more contact with you and controlling you.
Again, you're giving him this power by choosing to interact. It's not like your talk will change him. He's shown that he doesn't care to know or change how he treats you or the kids. So not only will your talk not change him, you might be encouraging him to do more of that type of thing because it's the biggest reaction he can get out of you and the most contact you give him.
The most effective way to handle people like this is to not engage. It's hard, because he really is an asshole and massively deserves to be told that so you need to deprive yourself of the pleasure of telling him that and being right. But I'm guessing you're a good enough mom that being willing to deprive yourself the satisfaction of telling him what a jerk he is will be a small price to pay if it means that your choice to disengage means he stops trying to play the game by hurting your kids.
You handle people like him by only sending the bare minimum of communication and ignoring any of their responses or attempts to engage. For example, after last night's call, set yourself up for success by not calling him back to engage and tell him he's a jerk. Simply send a one or two line text: "The kids will be available for you to call them on Wednesdays at 6 PM. They can choose to talk or not. We will not be responding to any calls or messages outside that time." Done. No more answering, responding, etc.
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Deleted
Joined: Oct 11, 2024 21:18:03 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2015 11:27:20 GMT -5
Well, that's pretty harsh. I think you can easily get away with never answering your phone and moving without telling him. Even in my case when he just got out of jail, it said "Father is to receive reasonable parenting time, and until further notice that time is to be supervised". I do think the once a week phone call time is appropriate though. No middle of the night texts about what a bitch you are or calls outside the specified time. I agree, I think you're well within your rights to suspend or limit contact as much as you want, particularly given the documentation of his deteriorating mental state/relationship with your kids. Think of it this way. If you do violate a parenting time order,* at worst you can be held in contempt of court after a show cause hearing. You have examples A-Z of your ex's behavior being harmful to your kids' mental health, and good reasons for restricting/eliminating contact until he shows he can be trusted. Your ex has what? A criminal history, drug-related hospitalizations, active warrants -- and absolutely nothing to show that what you did was wrong or unjustified. *That's for the normal case. Here the order says parenting time is suspended, so no contact is a fairly reasonable extension. Not to mention the guy is never going to come to Angel's State to file for a change of parenting time order anyhow with a warrant out for him there.
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