Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 2, 2015 13:24:38 GMT -5
Didn't you just quit in the middle of a contract position - and get out of your lease early?
It wasn't a "contract" position in the sense that I promised to stay for the full two years. It was a contract position in the sense that I was contracted by another firm to work for the company and was paid an hourly rate by that company, not the company I was actually working at every day.
Nothing in the contract stated I had to stay for the full two years - just that I couldn't stay any longer than two years (without rolling off for at least 90 days). Leaving after 1.5 years violated no terms of my agreement. If I'd promised to stay for two years, that's what I would have done.
And no, we didn't get out of our lease early - it ended in January. But if we had, then we would have had to pay a hefty fee, as stipulated in our contract.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 2, 2015 13:24:58 GMT -5
Update: DH apparently wasn't as sure about Company A's offer as he let on, and he's still very interested in talking with Company B. Since he didn't feel comfortable accepting A's offer and then meeting with B on Thursday, he called A and requested more time to make his decision. He was honest and said that he had another interview scheduled for Thursday that he wanted to attend before giving them a final answer.
A's response? "No problem! Let us know when you can. And if it's about money, we do have some wiggle room." (I found this hilarious since DH was reluctant to negotiate and I kept telling him that they had more money to give him, companies NEVER start out offering the exact amount they're authorized to offer, so as to leave room for candidates to negotiate.)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2015 13:29:57 GMT -5
so does that mean you feel it's unethical for a company to make a job offer and then rescind it after all the paperwork is done but the person hasn't started?
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Mar 2, 2015 13:30:06 GMT -5
Update: DH apparently wasn't as sure about Company A's offer as he let on, and he's still very interested in talking with Company B. Since he didn't feel comfortable accepting A's offer and then meeting with B on Thursday, he called A and requested more time to make his decision. He was honest and said that he had another interview scheduled for Thursday that he wanted to attend before giving them a final answer. A's response? "No problem! Let us know when you can. And if it's about money, we do have some wiggle room." (I found this hilarious since DH was reluctant to negotiate and I kept telling him that they had more money to give him, companies NEVER start out offering the exact amount they're authorized to offer, so as to leave room for candidates to negotiate.) Good thing he did not send that email about the recruiter .. Han
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 2, 2015 13:31:20 GMT -5
So when it is acceptable for me to seek other opportunities? What do you deem "acceptable" reasons for deciding a job isn't a good fit?
How many times do you guys expect me to answer this question? For ME PERSONALLY, it's acceptable to search for other opportunities once I've started working for the company and decided it isn't a good fit for me. This could be anywhere from two days to two years into the job. You may have other standards and that's fine.
I knew after my first day on that job that it wasn't right for me, but I was hoping it was just nerves or something after being with the same company for three years. I stayed another week and a half (with each day getting worse and with it becoming clearer all the time that the job was not what I had been told it would be) before I called back the other company and asked if the position was still available.
I didn't want to leave after four weeks. I was 100% planning to stay at the first job. Obviously, if I'd known it wasn't going to work out, I would have turned down their offer and continued the interview process with the company that did end up working out. I guess my X-ray future vision wasn't working that month.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 2, 2015 13:35:36 GMT -5
so does that mean you feel it's unethical for a company to make a job offer and then rescind it after all the paperwork is done but the person hasn't started? Unless the employee failed the background check/drug test or the company found out they lied or something else equally legitimate (things it says in your offer letter you can be terminated for automatically), yes, I'd consider that very unethical. I'm surprised so many of you think it's fine and dandy for a company to rescind a signed offer once it's been accepted because they continued to interview other candidates and found someone who they thought was cheaper/better. I have a feeling a bunch of you would be changing your tune if this happened to you.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 2, 2015 13:36:23 GMT -5
so - not a huge ethical dilemma after all?
Huh? This had nothing to do with the original dilemma. DH didn't have to accept the other offer to take this meeting.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 2, 2015 13:39:51 GMT -5
Good thing he did not send that email about the recruiter .. Han
Yes, it is. I'm glad he didn't send that email. I still think it was shady of her to ask. On the other hand, I have to admire her persistence. She emailed DH at least three times over the weekend reiterating B's interest and asking him if there was any way he could meet with them on Thursday. She also stopped asking him to accept A's offer and meet with them anyway after he said he was uncomfortable with that. She gets partial credit from me for continuing to pursue him without pressuring him to do something he wasn't comfortable doing
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Mar 2, 2015 13:45:24 GMT -5
First - Congrats to DH, Firebird! I am glad he will have a job soon and that your prospects are looking good.
Here's the thing, this shouldn't even be an issue. It is only an issue because Firebird's DH screwed up. When he was offered the position with Company A, he should have been up front with them and said "Based on the original timeline you gave me, I am still meeting with other companies. I need to complete those interviews before making a final decision. I expect to be able to get that to you a week from Monday." However, that's not what he said. He said "Yes, I'll get back to you on Monday." And then he made another mistake, and called Company B's recruiter.
EDITED to add: Since it takes me forever to get posts posted after I start writing them, it appears that Firebird's DH did the right thing and asked for more time. And yes, naturally Company A is giving it to him, especially since their original timeline was a full week longer than they ended up taking.
Because he hasn't accepted the offer yet. He still has negotiating to do, and there's a chance he and Company A won't come to terms. Second best scenario would have been not to call recruiter for B until Company A's offer had actually been negotiated and settled.
I will say that in no way did the recruiter for company B act unethically, because her duty is NOT to company A. Her duty is to company B. That's who she is paid to look out for, and that's who she looked out for. She tried to keep someone she thought was a great candidate on the line for the company that she has a responsibility to. That's her job. She didn't ask Firebird's DH to break any laws, she didn't ask him to ignore a contract he had already signed. Perhaps she should have said, "Can you tell them you need a few more days to decide?" instead of saying "Accept and then rescind."
I think this is really one of those places where people need to understand that what is right for one person is not right for another. Firebird and her DH would not be comfortable accepting an offer and then accepting a better offer. That's fine. That's a personal choice. That doesn't necessarily make it unethical for another person to do that. It just means it's not right for them.
Now, I also come at this from the perspective of an employer. I once had a hiring manager call a candidate she wanted to hire at 10:15am and make the informal offer. She told them that HR would call shortly after 11am to make the official offer (since our HR person was in a meeting until 11am.) At 10:45am, a company wide email came out that said we were in a hiring freeze. I scrambled - I had two different people offers were out to. One was a high level position in which an official offer letter had been sent, and we were waiting for the person to respond. The other was this position, in which only an informal offer (from the hiring manager, but NOT HR) had gone out. The offer for my high level position stood, because HR had approved the offer. The offer for this lower level position did not, because it hadn't officially come from HR. One hour after she had made the offer, my hiring manager had to call the candidate back and rescind the offer. All because my HR person was in a meeting.
And today, I have to contact two people I interviewed last week and let them know they did not get the job. What I won't be telling them is that there had never been a chance they would get the job. Because the position is intended as a promotion for one of my current staff. But because it's a move from a union to a professional position, I had to pretend it was an open, competitive hire. And my College HR requires that I interview at least 3 people, even if I already know that I am offering the position to one of my staff.
Why does my College HR require this? Because this is how HR plans for someone saying, over and over again, yes I want this job, and then changing their mind at the last minute. Because no matter what my staff person was saying to me, we have to operate on the assumption that she could come and give her notice at any time. That even during this two week period of officially accepting the job I offered her and the start date for the promotion position, she could change her mind and take another job. And this way, I have already interviewed and have two candidates that I could fall back to.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 2, 2015 13:50:56 GMT -5
Oh, and I have an interview tomorrow for the company I want (5 minutes from our house). That's not strictly relevant but I'm excited
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Mar 2, 2015 13:52:19 GMT -5
Oh, and I have an interview tomorrow for the company I want (5 minutes from our house). That's not strictly relevant but I'm excited Yay!
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Mar 2, 2015 13:55:23 GMT -5
And today, I have to contact two people I interviewed last week and let them know they did not get the job. What I won't be telling them is that there had never been a chance they would get the job. Because the position is intended as a promotion for one of my current staff. But because it's a move from a union to a professional position, I had to pretend it was an open, competitive hire. And my College HR requires that I interview at least 3 people, even if I already know that I am offering the position to one of my staff.
Why does my College HR require this? Because this is how HR plans for someone saying, over and over again, yes I want this job, and then changing their mind at the last minute. Because no matter what my staff person was saying to me, we have to operate on the assumption that she could come and give her notice at any time. That even during this two week period of officially accepting the job I offered her and the start date for the promotion position, she could change her mind and take another job. And this way, I have already interviewed and have two candidates that I could fall back to.I think this is very unethical. I understand that you are bound by policy and so have no other choice, but I find it highly unethical to take up candidate's time by having them complete and application and interview them when there is no chance that they will get the job. It's on par with employers who want candidates to develop work product for them (under the guise of it being a sample), and then not compensating the candidate for the work. I mean I get that both things happen all the time, but I hate that employers think nothing of taking up people's time and talents when they could be applying that time and talent to an employer who will actually hire them and pay them.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 2, 2015 13:56:02 GMT -5
Perhaps she should have said, "Can you tell them you need a few more days to decide?" instead of saying "Accept and then rescind."
That's what she started saying after DH said he wasn't comfortable accepting and meeting with them anyway. And I agree, it's what she should have said in the first place. But like I said, she gets partial credit from me for backing off the request after he said it made him uncomfortable.
She may not have done anything strictly wrong and I'm really glad DH didn't "rat her out" since opinions on this are so divided and he's now planning to meet with them, but *I personally* still think it was wrong of her to ask him to do that. Pretty much everyone disagrees with me, which is fine. As shanendoah said, everyone draws the line somewhere different.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 2, 2015 13:57:23 GMT -5
I don't think there's anything wrong with looking for another job if the current one isn't working for you, regardless of how long you've been there. I do think there's something wrong with committing to work for a company, then pulling out when you have no reason to think that company won't work for you.
I'm really not seeing what's so hypocritical/illogical about this. Of course no one is obligated to stay with a job that's not right for them. I've never suggested otherwise. If DH starts with Company A and finds it an awful match, I'd be the first one suggesting he get on the phone with Company B to see if their position was still open. Finding a company that is a better fit, IMO is a good reason. You might go to the second interview & be blown away. There are a lot of reasons to pick one job over another & it isn't just about money. You could go to the second interview & find they have a better schedule, more PTO, maybe you just click better with your future coworkers, or maybe the job is just better. Those are in line with the reasons you cited as acceptable for quitting 2 weeks in, but you just figured it out sooner.
I guess I don't see much difference in finding this out a few days after accepting the offer vs 2 weeks after starting a job. Actually the company would probably prefer to find out before they spend 2 weeks training you.
FWIW I think your DH made the best decision, just being honest & asking for more time. That is what I would have done.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 2, 2015 13:59:58 GMT -5
I think this is very unethical. I understand that you are bound by policy and so have no other choice, but I find it highly unethical to take up candidate's time by having them complete and application and interview them when there is no chance that they will get the job.
I agree. Bottom line, I don't believe it's okay to deliberately waste people's time. To me, interviewing with another company when you have accepted an offer is definitely deliberately wasting someone's time - either the company that's interviewing you, or the company that made you an offer.
Maybe that's a better way to put it - I think it's unethical to deliberately waste people's time. Interviewing when no solid offer has been accepted is not deliberately wasting people's time because there's no guarantee that offer will be accepted. Leaving a job after two weeks because it's not working out is not deliberately wasting people's time because you had no idea it wouldn't work out.
Sometimes time gets wasted but I think it's wrong to do it on purpose - from either side.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 2, 2015 14:03:16 GMT -5
FWIW I think your DH made the best decision, just being honest & asking for more time. That is what I would have done.
I think he did too. @debthaven2 actually suggested asking for more time over the weekend, but since DH kept saying he was good with A's offer, I thought it would be silly of him to jeopardize it for a meeting about a job he was pretty sure he didn't want. It was only last night/this morning that he started talking about how much he wanted to meet with the B guys on Thursday, because the job might be a lot better for him. Then ask for more time and meet with B on Thursday! Which he has now done
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Mar 2, 2015 14:07:08 GMT -5
Why didn't your DH just tell company A he had another interview with B already scheduled in the first place? When I got my job offer at my current employer they called a couple of hours before I was set to leave for another interview. I just told them I had another interview that day and that I wanted to go before accepting the offer. No big deal. No inner turmoil.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 2, 2015 14:12:01 GMT -5
Why didn't your DH just tell company A he had another interview with B already scheduled? When I got my job offer at my current employer they called a couple of hours before I was set to leave for another interview. I just told them I had another interview that day and that I wanted to go before accepting the offer. No big deal. No inner turmoil.
The big dilemma here was/is that B can't meet with DH until Thursday. Five business days is a long time (IMO) to leave a company hanging about an offer. It also gives them plenty of time to interview other candidates, and they might well offer the position to someone else and have it be accepted long before Thursday (which I wouldn't consider unethical in the slightest!).
If B had agreed to meet with DH on Friday afternoon or this morning, there would have been no problem. DH would have just held off accepting or declining A until after the B interview was over.
If DH was truly thrilled with A's offer, to me it would have been dumb to wait five whole days before telling them yes in order to meet with another company "just in case." One or two days, no problem - but not five. But after sleeping on it a few times, he has some reservations about A's offer, so the risk of delaying until he can talk to B makes sense.
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justme
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Post by justme on Mar 2, 2015 14:26:54 GMT -5
What if you realize sometime between the offer and your first day of work that the job won't work out?
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Mar 2, 2015 14:42:03 GMT -5
emma1420 & Firebird - trust me, I wasn't super thrilled with having to do the interviews, either, as it wasted my time and the time of the other people on our interview panel. As a former interviewee (and one who was basically told a couple times that they had an internal candidate they were planning on going with from the start), I see it as less of a waste of time for the person being interviewed because being interviewed is a major skill, and one you need to practice to maintain. Yes it sucks, but they do actually get something out of it. (Or at least I did, as much as I didn't really like it.) And one of the people we interviewed definitely needs the practice.
At the same time, we have a position that we hired for in December. The person gave their notice last week. We were able to contact our second choice candidate without going through posting rigamarole (though that person had gotten an awesome opportunity that we couldn't even come close to matching, so we now have to post anyway), so I am also seeing the benefit to having people in line.
It is a balancing of needs. In some ways, it is much like all the regulations we have to put up with. Most of the time it's just extra paperwork and time and it's annoying. But there generally is a reason and a purpose to it.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Mar 2, 2015 16:50:42 GMT -5
If you guys think this is bad then you'd be horrified at what I did about 10 years ago.
Current company was going downhill fast and had just been sold, I was getting married and wanted to find something quick. I took an inside sales job with a company and agreed to go through their 8-week training program. A week before I was supposed to start the the sales job, I get a call to interview at a bank for a commercial lending position, which was the type of position that I wanted. The problem is that the day of the interview is my first day at the job I just accepted.
So I ended up calling in sick on my 1st day at this company. I just told them I had the flu and rolled the dice. I ended up getting the job at the bank and then quit the other job about 6 weeks in.
During my 6 weeks there, I can't tell you how much I hated that sales job. I hated it with a passion. The actual job might've been ok, but the training program was very juvenile and definitely geared towards college graduates who don't know any better. I was at my desk one day and my neighbor had been gone for like 5 minutes when we were supposed to be making calls. This dipsh*t walks up to me and says "Where's Andy?" and I said "Not sure, why?" and he's like "He's been gone awhile, just wondering". Turns out he was in the bathroom. haha
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Mar 2, 2015 17:41:48 GMT -5
emma1420 & Firebird - trust me, I wasn't super thrilled with having to do the interviews, either, as it wasted my time and the time of the other people on our interview panel. As a former interviewee (and one who was basically told a couple times that they had an internal candidate they were planning on going with from the start), I see it as less of a waste of time for the person being interviewed because being interviewed is a major skill, and one you need to practice to maintain. Yes it sucks, but they do actually get something out of it. (Or at least I did, as much as I didn't really like it.) And one of the people we interviewed definitely needs the practice.
At the same time, we have a position that we hired for in December. The person gave their notice last week. We were able to contact our second choice candidate without going through posting rigamarole (though that person had gotten an awesome opportunity that we couldn't even come close to matching, so we now have to post anyway), so I am also seeing the benefit to having people in line.
It is a balancing of needs. In some ways, it is much like all the regulations we have to put up with. Most of the time it's just extra paperwork and time and it's annoying. But there generally is a reason and a purpose to it. I interviewed a few times where I had to take a day off from work and possibly find child care all to go talk to some person who thinks it is okay to waste my time. You think that was a bigger imposition on them than me and no I didn't get anything out of it except seriously pissed off.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Mar 2, 2015 18:10:14 GMT -5
Do I think it's a bigger imposition on me than the candidates? No, but it is still an imposition on not only myself, but two other professional staff in my department. We stand to get nothing out of the process while the candidates stand to get something (even if it is just keeping interview skills sharp).
It's a sucky situation all around. I would happily have just given the job to my staff member if I had been allowed to. But those pesky laws about state jobs and union regulations, combined with College policy, prevented me from doing so.
I did everything in my power to indicate via the job announcement that this wasn't really an open position (without coming right out and saying so, because that would have caused legal issues). It was an internal only posting, posted for the shortest possible time.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Mar 2, 2015 19:04:08 GMT -5
Actually, my interviewees were getting paid. They were on the clock, work hours, not even their lunch. One of the reasons that we do internal only is because the University has a policy that allows for people to interview in other departments on the clock.
Honestly, I get that people don't like this. *I* don't like this. But it is policy. It is something I HAVE to do.
And the reasons for it include having someone accept and offer and then change their mind.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2015 19:11:22 GMT -5
Hi guys, Ethical question for you. DH had a couple of great interviews this week. He received an offer from Company A today, and promised to give them an answer by Monday. It's a good solid offer which he's leaning toward taking. Company B was probably also going to make him an offer- unfortunately, the owners can't meet with him until Thursday afternoon. While discussing this with the recruiter for Company B, she asked him to accept the offer from Company A and meet with the owners of Company B on Thursday anyway. She went on to say that he could always withdraw his acceptance of Company A's offer, should Company B make a better one. Obviously, he has no intention of doing this. DH is a very honest, straightforward guy. He was extremely uncomfortable that the recruiter even asked him to do this. (With good reason. Someone pulled this little stunt at my last company and we were all super pissed- we made sure EVERYONE in the department was aware of it so we didn't accidentally hire her later. She was a great candidate but we had zero interest in someone who would do that.) Here's the question. DH wants to email the head of HR for Company B (one of the people he met with in the first interview) to let her know what the recruiter asked him to do. He feels she has a right to know that. I'm not sure whether he should do that or not. I agree that Company B has a right to know what their recruiter is asking candidates to do, but I'm just not sure if him emailing is a good idea. Thoughts? Recruiters are not the most ethical of people. I think DH knows what to do, the right thing. Its amazing how often the truth just WORKS for you.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 3, 2015 16:33:29 GMT -5
B agreed to meet with DH at 7am tomorrow This is so great! They must really want him if they're agreeing to meet that early. I don't know many people who volunteer for meetings at that hour... other than crazies like myself, of course.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 4, 2015 15:12:36 GMT -5
Well, things are definitely moving! B kept DH for three hours this morning and they're positive they want to make him an offer (they even promised it would beat A's). But first they want him to meet their president who's going to be in our neck of the woods today, so they're supposed to have coffee or dinner later. I hope they have a solid number by tomorrow, when DH promised to get back to A. They may end up fighting over him Meanwhile, I've been asked to come for an in-person interview after the phone screen yesterday. It's tomorrow, and the recruiter said that they haven't even bothered to call anyone else for a phone screen. Fingers crossed hard. This job is perfect for me, excellent pay, and a 5 minute drive from our house. Actually, it would probably be easier to walk or bike it.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 4, 2015 16:21:00 GMT -5
Do I think it's a bigger imposition on me than the candidates? No, but it is still an imposition on not only myself, but two other professional staff in my department. We stand to get nothing out of the process while the candidates stand to get something (even if it is just keeping interview skills sharp).
By that same logic, couldn't you be learning to conduct better interviews? I think anything can be viewed as a learning experience if you choose to view it that way. I also think people won't gain much unless they are viewing it as a learning experience, which is not how I am guessing most people view most interviews.
Personally, I think it is an equal waste of time all around. Assuming your interviewees need to sharpen their interviewing skills is as insulting as someone thinking it isn't a waste of your time because you need to sharpen your interviewing skills or whatever.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 16:28:46 GMT -5
That's fantastic, Firebird! Do you have daycare lined up for Babybird? Or is your mom staying on?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 4, 2015 17:02:44 GMT -5
That's fantastic, Firebird! Do you have daycare lined up for Babybird? Or is your mom staying on? My mom went home on Saturday, and Babybird started at a great Montessori preschool on Monday. Some tears on the first and second day- then today she all but shoved me out the door when we arrived So things are shaping up pretty nicely.
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