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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 13:42:07 GMT -5
I actually had indicated (not committed) that I was happy with an offer from a company, but not yet established a starting date, when another, better offer came along. I was then unsure about the ethics, so called my straight-arrow father. He noted this was not uncommon, and advised me to go with the better offer, and let the first company know I appreciated very much their interest, but. He was right. This was 24 years ago, so you know the way of the world has not changed. My brother graduated from college in 1978 with a degree in Mechanical Engineering. He accepted an offer with Goodrich and THEN got an offer from Ford, where he had really wanted to work. He also consulted our straight-arrow father, who told him the right thing to do was to go with Goodrich. Years later they both regretted that. My brother spent his whole career as a sort of fish out of water because he was a mechanical engineer in the chemical industry. He moved pretty far up the ladder and just recently retired, but I'd have to say he's probably enjoyed his career the least of the 5 of us. The last few years after his employer's acquisition have been miserable- expected to be available 24/7 even on vacation, dealing with 100 e-mails a day, travel to the backwaters of Asia.. I am SO happy for him and my sister-in-law. He's got a generous pension and they've just moved into a house in a lake community and he's unpacking his power tools so he can resume making exquisite furniture. Now, maybe Ford would have dumped him out on the street when he was 40- but I think he always wondered what if. You really have to put yourself first.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 28, 2015 17:33:38 GMT -5
I guess I'm in the minority, but I do consider accepting an offer, agreeing on a start date, doing all the paperwork, and then continuing the interview process with another company in the hopes of receiving a competing offer before the start date rolls around to be very unethical
Why? Companies rescind offers all the time for various reasons. I've applied to several jobs and interviewed only to have the position be pulled, I've had interviews and the company announce a hiring freeze. The only one who is looking out for me is me.
I got offered a part time job washing test tubes at UNMC as my first job. Right after that Creighton called and I got offered a full time better paying job in an actual lab.
I called back UNMC and told them I changed my mind, I got a better offer from Creighton.
It's a business decision, not a personal one, IMO. Companies are going to do what is best for them and in turn I am going to do what is best for me. If I get a better offer from another company why shouldn't I accept it? An employer isn't going to extend me the same courtesy if it works in their advantage to get rid of me.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 28, 2015 18:45:08 GMT -5
To me, leaving a company during the probationary period because the job wasn't what you were told it would be or there's a huge culture mismatch (both of which were true in my case) is different than continuing to job hunt when you're planning to start a new job, just to keep your options open.
I had actually turned down a second interview with the company I ended up "jumping" to after four weeks- and the reason I turned down the second interview was because I'd accepted the offer from the company which turned out not to be right for me. So yeah, to me there's a difference. I couldn't have foreseen the job not working out until I was actually there- that's why the probationary period exists in the first place. Only after I knew the first job was totally wrong for me did I call back the other company to ask if their position was still open.
Also, I gave two weeks notice to the first company and helped them develop some training materials during that time. So it wasn't a total waste for them. I felt bad about this at the time, but I also feel I handled it as professionally as possible (and my boss at the first company said as much).
I agree that you ultimately have to look out for yourself. But as others have said, it's a small world. People talk. I personally don't feel it's a good idea, nor do I consider it ethical, to continue actively interviewing with other companies after you've accepted an offer somewhere else. YMMV, clearly.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 19:38:40 GMT -5
I personally don't feel it's a good idea, nor do I consider it ethical, to continue actively interviewing with other companies after you've accepted an offer somewhere else.
I completely agree... BUT, I don't consider waiting a few days to conclude interviewing with another company to be the same thing.
Your DH is already in contact with Company B. That is NOT the same thing as accepting Company A's offer, and then applying to Company B.
This said, would your DH prefer Company B? I don't see the problem with telling Company A he needs till the end of the week (or one more week) to give them his decision. If not, then I'd accept Company A and tell Company B thank you, but he has already accepted an offer.
I would most definitely NOT tell the company about the recruiter, for the same reasons as everybody else.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 28, 2015 21:05:38 GMT -5
The offer from Company B, should it come, is unlikely to beat the offer from Company A. DH was leaning toward A anyway, but it would be nice to compare actual offers.
Without being able to finish the process, there's no way to know if A is best. But it's a pretty good offer. Really decent money for around here, and he hasn't even negotiated yet (which he plans to do on Monday).
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Mar 1, 2015 8:29:15 GMT -5
The offer from Company B, should it come, is unlikely to beat the offer from Company A. DH was leaning toward A anyway, but it would be nice to compare actual offers. Without being able to finish the process, there's no way to know if A is best. But it's a pretty good offer. Really decent money for around here, and he hasn't even negotiated yet (which he plans to do on Monday). I am curious: what is considered decent money for Seattle?
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Mar 1, 2015 10:05:20 GMT -5
...:::"And judging by how angry my colleagues were when someone did this to us, people definitely consider it to be unethical when it's being done TO them. Yes, companies look out for number one and so should you (I left a job after two weeks because it was a horrible fit culture wise, so I get it) but there's no need to be blatantly dishonest.":::...
History is written by the winners, right! To the company being "jilted", leaving for greener pastures so soon is mean and rotten and dishonest. But to the person who just got a better deal, its a no brainer.
I find tattling to be pointless. Most people will just pay you lip service. I've given up on the idea that others can be shamed out of behavior that works out well for them. They know what they are doing. They know its not pure. But they love the results it gets them.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 1, 2015 11:19:20 GMT -5
We're not in Seattle, we're in an area near Portland. Salary offered was $55k plus benefits and bonus. That's only $7k less base than he made in California, and much more opportunity for advancement with this company than he had in California.
Median salary for a guy around here is low 40s, I think. 30-something for women. So $55k is pretty decent. We can easily live on his salary and save most or all of mine once I start working.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Mar 1, 2015 12:11:08 GMT -5
We're not in Seattle, we're in an area near Portland. Salary offered was $55k plus benefits and bonus. That's only $7k less base than he made in California, and much more opportunity for advancement with this company than he had in California. Median salary for a guy around here is low 40s, I think. 30-something for women. So $55k is pretty decent. We can easily live on his salary and save most or all of mine once I start working. Ok I need to move to Iowa or Portland!!
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chen35
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Post by chen35 on Mar 1, 2015 21:36:33 GMT -5
I'm in a much worse position if someone starts working for me, then quits after two weeks. At that point I've wasted a lot of time. If it's still around the time I made an offer, I probably have a second or third choice I can extend the offer to, so not much time lost.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 1, 2015 21:53:03 GMT -5
Agreed, but again, the candidate can't really control the position not working out after they start. They can, however, plan on that job working out and stop interviewing accordingly.
Having to jump ship after two weeks is no candidate's dream situation either. Just as companies have lost two weeks (or more) of interviewing/offering to the right candidate, so too have candidates lost that same amount of time hunting for jobs that ARE right for them. Everyone loses when someone has to quit during a probationary period.
It's not the same as pulling out after accepting an offer because a better one came along- at least not to me.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2015 9:19:44 GMT -5
That is really childish, especially the part about making sure you didn't accidentally hire a great candidate later. Why would anyone be obligated to work for you for a lower offer if they had a better one come their way?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 2, 2015 9:44:36 GMT -5
leaving a company during the probationary period because the job wasn't what you were told it would be or there's a huge culture mismatch (both of which were true in my case) is different than continuing to job hunt when you're planning to start a new job, just to keep your options open.
Why? The whole point of a probationary period is that the company gets to try me on for size and if they don't like me, they can get rid of me with little hassle/consequence. Why can't I view my probationary period the same way? If I get called up for something I applied for and I am interested I should have every right to interview and if it's a better offer, take it.
If the employer can terminate me for any reason during a probationary period I should be able to terminate my employment for my own ends if I desire.
It shouldn't be personal it's a business decision on both ends. If a company can't understand that and decides to make it personal then jumping was a good decision b/c who knows what else they are going to hold against me. I don't owe a company anything more than they owe me.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 2, 2015 10:03:47 GMT -5
I don't think my position is illogical at all, but I've explained it and you disagree and that's fine. No reason to continue hashing it over.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Mar 2, 2015 10:25:15 GMT -5
If you consider it unethical to look for a job when you've only been offered another job, then you must REALLY think it's unethical to look for a job when you have another job.
That wouldn't bother me at all. You owe it to yourself and your family to get the best offer you can. You don't owe this current company anything.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2015 11:01:51 GMT -5
I don't think my position is illogical at all, but I've explained it and you disagree and that's fine. No reason to continue hashing it over. It's not just a matter of disagreeing. To some of us you appear to be hypocritical. You can justify what you do but condemn what many of us see as the same action in others. That's the last of my hashing though.
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chen35
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Post by chen35 on Mar 2, 2015 11:25:12 GMT -5
We had a guy accept an offer last fall, then rescind after he got an offer from an audit firm. It put me back a few weeks in the hiring process, but it's better he do what he really wants to do. It's just business. Like others have said, it's not like he signed a contract. Plus, anyone who WANTS to be an auditor can't be that great, right? No offense, taz157.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 2, 2015 11:44:05 GMT -5
I don't think there's anything wrong with looking for another job if the current one isn't working for you, regardless of how long you've been there.
I do think there's something wrong with committing to work for a company, then pulling out when you have no reason to think that company won't work for you.
I'm really not seeing what's so hypocritical/illogical about this. Of course no one is obligated to stay with a job that's not right for them. I've never suggested otherwise. If DH starts with Company A and finds it an awful match, I'd be the first one suggesting he get on the phone with Company B to see if their position was still open.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 2, 2015 11:50:04 GMT -5
I do think there's something wrong with committing to work for a company, then pulling out when you have no reason to think that company won't work for you.
If Company B offers me a better salary or has a better benefits package why is it wrong of me to take that opportunity? It's in my best interest to go with the company that offers me the most.
Company A can at any time decide to rescind the offer of employment. They can also decide to terminate me during my probationary period for pretty much anything because the whole point of one is I am being tried on for size with the understanding the company can change it's mind during this time frame.
Why it is unethical for me to keep my options open and potentially go with a better offer when the company has the right to do the exact same thing?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 2, 2015 11:59:12 GMT -5
So you wouldn't see anything wrong with a company continuing to interview another candidate for your position after you've accepted an offer for that position, just in case that person will take the job for less money?
That's analogous to what I'm talking about, and I'd find that very unscrupulous. Again- it's very different from a company reopening the position if you are not working out.
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taz157
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Post by taz157 on Mar 2, 2015 12:05:02 GMT -5
We had a guy accept an offer last fall, then rescind after he got an offer from an audit firm. It put me back a few weeks in the hiring process, but it's better he do what he really wants to do. It's just business. Like others have said, it's not like he signed a contract. Plus, anyone who WANTS to be an auditor can't be that great, right? No offense, taz157. I'm no longer an auditor. I saw the light and moved to taxes (which I question during this time of year).
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 2, 2015 12:07:23 GMT -5
So you wouldn't see anything wrong with a company continuing to interview another candidate for your position after you've accepted an offer for that position, just in case that person will take the job for less money
If it's legal then the company has every right to continue to interview people and find a better fit.
It'd suck for me but the company does not owe me anything. It's not a personal relationship, it's business. The company is going to do what is best for them regardless of how it affects me.
I'm going to operate the same way. IMO you never know what is going to happen so it's a good idea during a probation period to keep your options open and interview if you get a lead. You can always turn it down if you don't want it but if it's a better offer I see no issue with taking it. It's better for my bottom line.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Mar 2, 2015 12:14:58 GMT -5
Most companies actually do keep interviewing after getting the right candidate. I know lots of people who interviewed who got called back later because the first person backed out or quit. It happens and good HR people know that and plan for it.
My opinion changed after a family member was requited by a company away from their job. They quit their job and started with the new company. Three months after they started the entire department was closed down. when they asked how they could not have known this three months before they were told the company did know when they requited and hired him. They didn't want anyone to know about the dept closing until they were ready to release the info, and him getting hired away from his other company was part of them keeping up appearances.
It was just business they said. Well so is me continuing to explore other options.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 2, 2015 12:30:59 GMT -5
I'm sure there are some companies which would have no problem doing that. I wouldn't want to work for those companies.
I think to a certain extent, we get what we give - and what we expect - in the business world. If you expect to be treated with respect and professionalism, and you extend the same, that's what you'll probably get back. If you go around with the attitude of "they'd screw me, so I have no problem screwing them" then I'm not surprised that's what you're getting in return.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 2, 2015 12:33:26 GMT -5
Uh yeah, of course companies keep interviewing after they think they've found the right candidate. But they don't usually keep interviewing people AFTER AN OFFER HAS BEEN EXTENDED AND ACCEPTED.
Continuing to interview before an offer has been extended and accepted just makes sense, for both sides. I'm talking about after an offer has been delivered in writing and accepted in writing. No company I've ever worked for has continued interviewing candidates after hiring one of them.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 2, 2015 12:38:00 GMT -5
expect to be treated with respect and professionalism, and you extend the same, that's what you'll probably get back
How is deciding another job would be a better opportunity for me unprofessional and disrespectful? Please enlighten me.
There is no intention of "screwing" Company A. All companies are aware that new hires don't always stick around for various reasons and plan accordingly.
The company ran just fine before I was hired and it'll run just fine if I choose to leave.
It's a business transaction and both parties have the right to terminate it at any time. It's no more disrespectful or unprofessional for me to leave than it is for them to terminate me.
I'm talking about after an offer has been delivered in writing and accepted in writing
Done it. Creighton offered me the job right after I had signed the paperwork for UNMC. Called UNMC and told them I got a better offer and was declining the position.
The majority of people are going to understand that you are going to go with a better opportunity and will not hold it against you. If they do then it's not a company I want to work for.
If you read probation paperwork it states the employer has the right to terminate the agreement at any time. It also says the same thing in any employment paperwork I've signed.
So if they have the right to hire me then turn around shortly thereafter and show me the door, why am "unprofessional" for exercising the clause myself?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 2, 2015 12:59:22 GMT -5
There's always going to be a theoretical "better offer" out there. Every job accepted is a risk on both sides. The company is risking the possibility that someone out there would do a better job than you for less money. You're risking the possibility that there's another job out there which would pay more or be closer to home or whatever.
But when the company has made you an offer and you've accepted, to me that means you're both comfortable assuming those risks and you've agreed to try each other out. Yes, you know it might not ultimately be a good fit and that's why there's a probationary period. But the signed offer, to me, implies that for NOW you will BOTH stop searching for someone/something better. And you will continue not searching for someone/something better until/unless the position isn't working for one or both of you.
You feel differently, and that's fine. But I'd rather work for a company that sees it my way than spend the week between my acceptance and start date wondering if maybe they're offering my promised position to someone else right now.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2015 13:09:38 GMT -5
That's analogous to what I'm talking about, and I'd find that very unscrupulous. Again- it's very different from a company reopening the position if you are not working out. They actually do that. You go in for the interview and they finish interviewing the 10 other people they had lined up. And that's what your DH would have been doing. He already had the interview lined up, he would just be finishing the process.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2015 13:13:05 GMT -5
Uh yeah, of course companies keep interviewing after they think they've found the right candidate. But they don't usually keep interviewing people AFTER AN OFFER HAS BEEN EXTENDED AND ACCEPTED. The only reason DH would accept the offer before being sure is because of the company imposed timeline. Say your DH really wants the job at company B, he says no to Company A by Monday because they demanded an answer by then. Then Company B doesn't make an offer. Your DH is now unemployed for an indefinite length of time.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 2, 2015 13:14:49 GMT -5
But when the company has made you an offer and you've accepted, to me that means you're both comfortable assuming those risks and you've agreed to try each other out.
So when it is acceptable for me to seek other opportunities? What do you deem "acceptable" reasons for deciding a job isn't a good fit?
My boss has invested 5 years into me. That's a lot of time/money and it's going to be a long road to get a new hire up to the level I am currently at.
If I left after two weeks he's invested next to nothing in me. I'd be easy to replace with another hire. That's why HR keeps resumes on hand and has 1st, 2nd, 3rd candidates for jobs. Candidate #1 decides after accepting they no longer want it, they pull out Candidate #2 and offer them the job.
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