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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Mar 1, 2015 9:58:18 GMT -5
if they want to teach them where food comes from (factory farming) they should watch Food, Inc. in class. The NYT also had an article many years ago entitled 'the high cost of cheap food'. and yes, I find what this teacher did repulsive and if my child had been forced to see that I would have been the first one in line calling for his firing. do you also agree with the teacher who was neutering cats in his classroom without anesthesia and calling it a teaching moment? The child was not forced to watch though. This was not mandatory and anyone who did not want to see this was excused. I highly suspect that this culinary program was the sort that would give the students who might have an interest in the culinary arts a taste of it before the parents/kids plunked down 5 figures for a culinary education in their post high school graduate years. If the student could not handle the idea that they *might* have to disjoint a chicken/rabbit/pheasant/etc. in their culinary career, don't you think that the time to find this out is now, rather than 8 months into an expensive education? No teacher would neuter a cat without anesthesia. Any sort of science curriculum would not allow this and this would not be allowed in any sort of facility in the US. If it was being done, it was done without the proper documentation - which means that the teacher would be in a world of shit should it be found out. I neutered a rat in my college physiology class. It WAS a teaching moment (especially since my job required me to do all sorts of animal surgery over the years). However, it was never, EVER done without proper anesthesia.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 10:04:00 GMT -5
if they want to teach them where food comes from (factory farming) they should watch Food, Inc. in class. The NYT also had an article many years ago entitled 'the high cost of cheap food'. and yes, I find what this teacher did repulsive and if my child had been forced to see that I would have been the first one in line calling for his firing. do you also agree with the teacher who was neutering cats in his classroom without anesthesia and calling it a teaching moment? The child was not forced to watch though. This was not mandatory and anyone who did not want to see this was excused. I highly suspect that this culinary program was the sort that would give the students who might have an interest in the culinary arts a taste of it before the parents/kids plunked down 5 figures for a culinary education in their post high school graduate years. If the student could not handle the idea that they *might* have to disjoint a chicken/rabbit/pheasant/etc. in their culinary career, don't you think that the time to find this out is now, rather than 8 months into an expensive education? No teacher would neuter a cat without anesthesia. Any sort of science curriculum would not allow this and this would not be allowed in any sort of facility in the US. If it was being done, it was done without the proper documentation - which means that the teacher would be in a world of shit should it be found out. I neutered a rat in my college physiology class. It WAS a teaching moment (especially since my job required me to do all sorts of animal surgery over the years). However, it was never, EVER done without proper anesthesia. disjointing a chicken or rabbit is a hell of a lot different than killing said rabbit or chicken first. yesbiscuit.wordpress.com/2014/11/28/cats-castrated-in-high-school-agriculture-class/In early November, the teacher of an agriculture class at Stephens Co High School in Georgia brought 2 cats into class and castrated them without anesthetic, having students hold the pets down. One student was bitten. So that happened. The teacher, Daniel Hebert, is not a licensed veterinarian and I was unable to find any information as to whether the cats had been vaccinated against rabies prior to the incident. I am guessing he owned the cats although I couldn’t find a source for that information. The state department of agriculture investigated and said nothing illegal had happened. Which is swell news for every wannabe vet yahoo looking for a place to set up shop – Georgia is your destination. You can play vet there, and apparently there are no rabies laws either.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 1, 2015 10:26:41 GMT -5
... and yes, I find what this teacher did repulsive and if my child had been forced to see that I would have been the first one in line calling for his firing. ... Who is "this teacher" that you refer to here? ... the one that butchered the rabbit Thanks for the direct answer. I didn't want to assume. 1) no one was forced to watch 2) I can't find a reference to the gender of the teacher in any news story
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 10:39:01 GMT -5
Wow. No, I am not into no anesthesia for surgery.
I have no illusions that nature is a wonderful happy place free of pain and despair. I hear that bears will often eat lactating sheep udder first while it's still alive if they get a hold of them.
I do think that we can do better on average for animals that we care for before consuming. A comfortable life, a quick death. That's pretty much my aim.
My neighbors raised dexter cattle. The field set had weeping willows and apple trees that they'd doze under, it was a nice place. They ate about one a year, and gave it a quick death. During it's life they were fed, had grass and apples and medical care.
DH and I have spent a good stretch of time where we qualified for food and housing assistance, which we didn't take. We spent extra for for meat, and bought by the 1/4 pound. We've bought most of our eggs over the years from local farms, though we need to find a new one each time we move, and it's definitely tougher in cities. It's important to us.
Individuals aren't gods though, we can't do everything, so I understand why many don't go that direction. I just feel like on average we can do better for animals directly under our care. I feel like the "out of sight, out of mind" contributes to the demand for the cheapest meat possible even if it's a brutal life for millions and millions of animals under our care.
As a side note, it's popular to show kids where food comes from. Field trips to farms to see carrots and the like, planting seeds in classes, trips to local candy or peanut butter factories if there's one there.
But somehow, even though the average us consumer demands pounds and pounds of meat (the USA processes dozens of BILLIONS of pounds), we can't even have the option to show what it takes to get the meat?
It's horrific and barbaric to choose to raise a cow or rabbit with care, and then give it a quick death? Only sickos do that, according to popular sentiment. Somehow it's genteel and "normal" to entirely look away from the sacrifices required to get a majorly used food group, and only handle the shrink wrapped final results? That keeps near adults pure and balanced, according to many, I guess?
It feels weird to me, but it's just one opinion, so take it for what it's worth.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Mar 1, 2015 11:23:11 GMT -5
They still teach cooking in school? So kids can choose that elective instead of: ♤ music ♡ finance ♢ foreign languages ♧ computer programming
Damn! Glad we went charter and got rid of those home economic things (cooking / sewing / how to clean)
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 1, 2015 11:33:49 GMT -5
They still teach cooking in school? So kids can choose that elective instead of: ♤ music ♡ finance ♢ foreign languages ♧ computer programming Damn! Glad we went charter and got rid of those home economic things (cooking / sewing / how to clean)
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Mar 1, 2015 12:18:52 GMT -5
They still teach cooking in school? So kids can choose that elective instead of: ♤ music ♡ finance ♢ foreign languages ♧ computer programming Damn! Glad we went charter and got rid of those home economic things (cooking / sewing / how to clean) That's a hot mess!! But I still think we shouldn't inspire them to a $12 hr job Once our kids (& GKs) reached dbl digits (10) they were responsible for 1 dinner a week. Only requirement was that it incorporate all 5 colors. 11 yo thinks chocolate is a color But she'll learn, she just turned 11. 9 yo is already thinking about how many ways she can do it. (Pizza / pasta / tacos) I also don't need them to waste a period teaching them how to sew on a button
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 1, 2015 12:22:54 GMT -5
That's a hot mess!! But I still think we shouldn't inspire them to a $12 hr job ... Everyone should be a professional making above average wages?
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Mar 1, 2015 12:24:12 GMT -5
Where is that average? That's minimum wage here or close to it. Starbucks even pays that
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 1, 2015 12:38:59 GMT -5
Where is that average? That's minimum wage here or close to it. Starbucks even pays that Totally irrelevant to the point. Half the population will always earn below average wages. We can "inspire" our citizens to fill those jobs or "inspire" them to expect more and then be upset with them when they prefer to be on welfare rather than do jobs "beneath" them.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Mar 1, 2015 12:46:24 GMT -5
I disagree
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 1, 2015 13:01:01 GMT -5
With what? That half the population will allows earn below the average?
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Mar 1, 2015 14:38:49 GMT -5
With minimum wage between $10 to $12 an hour depending on city, the average salary can't be $12 an hour.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 1, 2015 15:26:09 GMT -5
Got it. Sorry for being dense.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Mar 1, 2015 15:57:11 GMT -5
With minimum wage between $10 to $12 an hour depending on city, the average salary can't be $12 an hour. Wait, where is the minimum wage this high? NY only raised min wage to $8 last year, and $8.75 this year, expected to be $9 next year. Isn't federal minimum wage still $7something?
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Mar 1, 2015 17:16:48 GMT -5
They still teach cooking in school? So kids can choose that elective instead of: ♤ music ♡ finance ♢ foreign languages ♧ computer programming Damn! Glad we went charter and got rid of those home economic things (cooking / sewing / how to clean) You probably need to look at some of the classes that are being taught at this high school before making any sort of comment like this. These kids have an INCREDIBLE amount of classes that they can take for experience, far more than what you can imagine. It appears that there is a lot of types of classes, including a lot of vocational classes that the students can dip their feet into to see if it might be something that they would like to do as a career. www.cfisd.net/files/1413/9532/7228/hscourse.pdfThis is not a home ec class, but culinary arts.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Mar 1, 2015 17:20:53 GMT -5
They still teach cooking in school? So kids can choose that elective instead of: ♤ music ♡ finance ♢ foreign languages ♧ computer programming Damn! Glad we went charter and got rid of those home economic things (cooking / sewing / how to clean) You probably need to look at some of the classes that are being taught at this high school before making any sort of comment like this. These kids have an INCREDIBLE amount of classes that they can take for experience, far more than what you can imagine. It appears that there is a lot of types of classes, including a lot of vocational classes that the students can dip their feet into to see if it might be something that they would like to do as a career. www.cfisd.net/files/1413/9532/7228/hscourse.pdfThis is not a home ec class, but culinary arts. My apologies. Didn't realized they were talking about a vocational high school
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Mar 1, 2015 17:21:22 GMT -5
With minimum wage between $10 to $12 an hour depending on city, the average salary can't be $12 an hour. Wait, where is the minimum wage this high? NY only raised min wage to $8 last year, and $8.75 this year, expected to be $9 next year. Isn't federal minimum wage still $7something? That's not the highest
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Mar 1, 2015 17:27:00 GMT -5
You probably need to look at some of the classes that are being taught at this high school before making any sort of comment like this. These kids have an INCREDIBLE amount of classes that they can take for experience, far more than what you can imagine. It appears that there is a lot of types of classes, including a lot of vocational classes that the students can dip their feet into to see if it might be something that they would like to do as a career. www.cfisd.net/files/1413/9532/7228/hscourse.pdfThis is not a home ec class, but culinary arts. My apologies. Didn't realized they were talking about a vocational high school It looks like it's both. They have a normal academic curriculum. Culinary Arts was in the hospitality curriculum. There's another one teaching welding, computer sciences, business, architecture, agriculture, etc. These kids have access to damn near as many science classes as I did at my university!
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Mar 1, 2015 17:32:10 GMT -5
I already apologized for not realizing it was a vocational high school. And nothing wrong with vocational schools. We need those employees too.
sounds like they're trying to fulfill both the normal high school curriculum for students who are going on to college and careers with those who are going to graduate high school going to a job
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Mar 1, 2015 17:39:47 GMT -5
I already apologized for not realizing it was a vocational high school. And nothing wrong with vocational schools. We need those employees too. This wasn't my point. I was merely talking about the absolutely incredible access these kids had to a myriad of programs that most high school graduates don't even consider before going off to college. I think if there were more schools like this, then there would likely be far less people going to college with absolutely no idea what to do in their life and scrambling for some sort of career. BTW.....I am currently attending a vocational school myself for engineering technology to cross train. I don't exactly understand why you think I was dissing vocational schools, but giving kudos to the school for having such a comprehensive curriculum. Quite frankly, I find this as challenging as any undergraduate or graduate class I have taken.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Mar 1, 2015 21:16:20 GMT -5
Wait, where is the minimum wage this high? NY only raised min wage to $8 last year, and $8.75 this year, expected to be $9 next year. Isn't federal minimum wage still $7something? That's not the highest Sorry, I'm still not following your train of thought. You seemed to feel that minimum wage was in the $10 - $12 range, depending on locale. I believe that minimum wage is $7.25 federally, and in the state I know (N.Y.) it is not yet $9. The only areas I found that have higher minimum wages are in Seattle, some CA cities, and a few NE states. More like the exceptions than the norm, to me.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Mar 2, 2015 0:03:56 GMT -5
teen persuasion, minimum wage is now $12.25 here (effective March 1st up from $12) but only $10 in SF (effective last January). So yes, I think of it being between 10-12 for the most part. Heard it's $15 in parts of Seattle. If you feel that it is too low in your area, work to raise it. The state minimum is just the jumping off point But back to OP: should the parent be aware of what the teacher is teaching? (Killing an animal) Absolutely. Is that lesson beneficial in the long run? IMHO no. The time could be better spent in other areas. Even if the student will grow up to be a diner cook, diner cooks don't slaughter animals. And most (apparently not all) diner cooks would be embarrassed to serve the hot mess that is in the above post.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 2, 2015 0:11:47 GMT -5
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Mar 2, 2015 8:41:09 GMT -5
I don't think this is the place to teach that kind of skill, either.
Cooking class in high school should be about the basics. How to clean your utensils and cooking surfaces after handling raw meat. How to cook foods to the point you won't give yourself food poisoning. The importance of eating veggies and fruits and avoiding sweets and fats. How to use measuring equipment - teaspoons and cups, etc. Maybe have a special project of baking a loaf of bread from scratch - but the point should be learning basic survival skills so that when they get launched into adulthood and into their first apartment they won't be living off potato chips and beef jerky.
Killing your own rabbits falls more into survival skills, or farming skills. Kids interested in that should get into scouting or 4H - if they don't already know it from growing up on a farm.
I'm not namby pamby about killing meat, but I think that's way down on the list of basic kitchen skills that high school home ec courses need to be teaching.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Mar 2, 2015 8:51:03 GMT -5
Thanks! According to this list, none of the states are above $9.50, and the one at that level is actually D.C. which is not a state. So all the "here"s above $10 must be HCOL cities.
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justme
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Post by justme on Mar 2, 2015 9:36:49 GMT -5
It's a culinary arts class, and yes that's different than a cooking class. So it should have different goals than a home ec cooking class. Things like knife skills, the differences between a sauté and a sweat, and yes how to butcher an animal. The slaughtering isn't necessary (which is my guess why it's optional), but anyone working in a restaurant needs know how to butcher meat. Though with the increase in farm to table restaurants I wouldn't be surprised if there's some out there that do slaughter their own animals.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Mar 2, 2015 10:29:40 GMT -5
I don't think this is the place to teach that kind of skill, either. Cooking class in high school should be about the basics. How to clean your utensils and cooking surfaces after handling raw meat. How to cook foods to the point you won't give yourself food poisoning. The importance of eating veggies and fruits and avoiding sweets and fats. How to use measuring equipment - teaspoons and cups, etc. Maybe have a special project of baking a loaf of bread from scratch - but the point should be learning basic survival skills so that when they get launched into adulthood and into their first apartment they won't be living off potato chips and beef jerky. Killing your own rabbits falls more into survival skills, or farming skills. Kids interested in that should get into scouting or 4H - if they don't already know it from growing up on a farm. I'm not namby pamby about killing meat, but I think that's way down on the list of basic kitchen skills that high school home ec courses need to be teaching. This is not a cooking class in high school. They are teaching those who want to go into Culinary arts/hospitality management as to what is involved. There is a huge difference here. This is not Home Ec, and that is what many are thinking. I imagine that many students that are in this program go off to Johnson and Wales or CIA, not college. They likely know how to cook, and know measurements. They are learning how to cook for a public.....NOT a family.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 2, 2015 10:32:15 GMT -5
Though with the increase in farm to table restaurants I wouldn't be surprised if there's some out there that do slaughter their own animals.
Highly unlikely. The USDA regulations for running a kill floor are extremely different from restaurant regulations. The sanitation/cross contamination risks alone are enough to prevent that from ever being approved.
Farm to table restaurants tend to have contracts with local butchers. They might break down the entire cow carcass on site, but they aren't killing the cow out back.
The odds of you being employed someplace where you'd have to kill the meat you're going to prepare is quite low.
Unless this was a wilderness type cooking class I don't think there was a need to kill the rabbit in class.
Having to kill your own rabbit/chicken/fish would make for an interesting episode of Chopped though.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Mar 2, 2015 10:41:58 GMT -5
I don't think this is the place to teach that kind of skill, either. Cooking class in high school should be about the basics. How to clean your utensils and cooking surfaces after handling raw meat. How to cook foods to the point you won't give yourself food poisoning. The importance of eating veggies and fruits and avoiding sweets and fats. How to use measuring equipment - teaspoons and cups, etc. Maybe have a special project of baking a loaf of bread from scratch - but the point should be learning basic survival skills so that when they get launched into adulthood and into their first apartment they won't be living off potato chips and beef jerky. Killing your own rabbits falls more into survival skills, or farming skills. Kids interested in that should get into scouting or 4H - if they don't already know it from growing up on a farm. I'm not namby pamby about killing meat, but I think that's way down on the list of basic kitchen skills that high school home ec courses need to be teaching. This is not a cooking class in high school. They are teaching those who want to go into Culinary arts/hospitality management as to what is involved. There is a huge difference here. This is not Home Ec, and that is what many are thinking. I imagine that many students that are in this program go off to Johnson and Wales or CIA, not college. They likely know how to cook, and know measurements. They are learning how to cook for a public.....NOT a family. I have a few friends and family who are chefs and my next door neighbor is a chef teaches at a Culinary arts school. Never in a million years would they think someone is going to kill a animal in school. And they certianly never did it in any restaurant they worked in. The whole thing is laughable. Butchering an already dead and cleaned animal is a whole different ball of wax. That is quite common. But killing and getting the blood and entrails ect out no way! I can't imagine the lisenses required to do that in a commercial kitchen either.
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