Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 26, 2015 19:30:40 GMT -5
Very unfortunate. And now fragments will be sold on the antiquties black market.
'The statues may be idols of the past we had to destroy, but by golly, they sure will make us some much needed money to line our pockets.'
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Feb 26, 2015 20:17:48 GMT -5
They've already proven they don't respect human life. It's no surprise that they don't value culture, history or art either.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 26, 2015 20:37:09 GMT -5
yeah, because we just care so much about everyone else's art and history, after all.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Feb 26, 2015 21:03:34 GMT -5
yeah, because we just care so much about everyone else's art and history, after all. So..... you are good with the destruction. If you were trying to make a point, please be more specific for the rightwingers here, like me. They are an offshoot of the Taliban, and we know they destroyed antiquities in Afghanistan too. Of course it's only stone............ These things are older than Islam for crying out loud.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 26, 2015 21:45:50 GMT -5
yeah, because we just care so much about everyone else's art and history, after all. It's just an article I found interesting (and aggravating!), because "we" may not care about anyone else's art or history but "I" do...stop being so defensive every time somebody mentions ISIS or the Middle East. my remark was NOT personal. if it were, i would have said YOU, not WE. but as a self professed art and culture lover, i would be interested in knowing what you thought when US forces failed to secure the Museum of Baghdad following our invasion of Iraq in 2003.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 26, 2015 21:46:18 GMT -5
yeah, because we just care so much about everyone else's art and history, after all. So..... you are good with the destruction. how on earth did you arrive at that conclusion?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 26, 2015 22:03:31 GMT -5
my remark was NOT personal. if it were, i would have said YOU, not WE. if so, i would be interested in knowing: what you thought when US forces failed to secure the Museum of Baghdad following our invasion of Iraq in 2003? I thought "DJ should stop being so defensive every time somebody mentions ISIS or the Middle East..." i think you are projecting. i was not attacking you, Ratchetts. care to try again? i meant my question MOST sincerely. i put a question mark after it so you could see it better.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 26, 2015 22:18:03 GMT -5
i think you are projecting. i was not attacking you, Ratchetts. care to try again? i meant my question MOST sincerely. i put a question mark after it so you could see it better. No, I don't care to try again. Because that's not what the thread was about, and I don't feel like running off on your tangent. I have posted quite a bit on the politics forum about both ISIS and the wars in the Middle East though, if you'd like to start or continue a conversation there about our invasion of Iraq. i see. so, your question, OP, etc, had nothing to do with the destruction of antiquities. my mistake.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Feb 27, 2015 0:21:01 GMT -5
Of course they did- the only way some dogshit group of losers can remain relevant is to jack up the outrage. It is the same thing GOP has been's do.
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 27, 2015 5:36:41 GMT -5
ISIS destroys museum
That's too bad. We've seen some of the Assyrian works of art in the British Museum, and they are awesome. Artwork that can't be replaced... . As if this country hasn't suffered enough...a countrys' history / artifates are so important to it's success as a country and the well being of it's people..not counting the world itself...here we have examples of a culture going back thousands of years , back to the beginning of written records of our existence...compare these artifates with say our own..the Liberty Bell, Faniel Hall in Boston, Washingtons' home in Mt Vernon, USS Constitution, Boston Harbor ...the Alamo, Texas...while all important , really no comparison comparing the two IMHO , yet how we would morn their loss
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 6:40:57 GMT -5
It's just an article I found interesting (and aggravating!), because "we" may not care about anyone else's art or history but "I" do...stop being so defensive every time somebody mentions ISIS or the Middle East. my remark was NOT personal. if it were, i would have said YOU, not WE. but as a self professed art and culture lover, i would be interested in knowing what you thought when US forces failed to secure the Museum of Baghdad following our invasion of Iraq in 2003. My memory can be a little spotty sometimes... so you'll have to forgive me if I've forgotten... Exactly when did we, during ANY war, specifically target artifacts or buildings, of historical significance, of a country we have attacked or retaliated against? I'm not talking about things that get caught in the crossfire or during a "carpet bombing" or places "bad guys" are hiding in, and we have to blast them out... I mean items/places SPECIFICALLY targeted for destruction SPECIFICALLY for their cultural or historic value.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 27, 2015 6:49:07 GMT -5
If the people that lived there cared about themselves or their art/culture, they'd defend it instead of waiting for others to protect them and their stuff.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 27, 2015 12:08:10 GMT -5
my remark was NOT personal. if it were, i would have said YOU, not WE. but as a self professed art and culture lover, i would be interested in knowing what you thought when US forces failed to secure the Museum of Baghdad following our invasion of Iraq in 2003. My memory can be a little spotty sometimes... so you'll have to forgive me if I've forgotten... Exactly when did we, during ANY war, specifically target artifacts or buildings, of historical significance, of a country we have attacked or retaliated against? I'm not talking about things that get caught in the crossfire or during a "carpet bombing" or places "bad guys" are hiding in, and we have to blast them out... I mean items/places SPECIFICALLY targeted for destruction SPECIFICALLY for their cultural or historic value. this is a straw man argument, and it could not be clearer. rather than dancing this dance with you, i invite you to look at what i actually said, and upon discovering that i never said anything about targeting, either withdraw your question, or ask a relevant one.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 27, 2015 12:10:30 GMT -5
If the people that lived there cared about themselves or their art/culture, they'd defend it instead of waiting for others to protect them and their stuff. wrong. in a police action, it is up to the invading force to secure the perimeter against absolute chaos. we have two options: one: we stop f(*king with other people's countries to get "regime change" OR two: we step up and take responsibility for the chaos that happens when we fail to secure our projects. throwing a country into a political vacuum and then failing to take any responsibility for the destruction that ensues is utterly immoral.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 27, 2015 12:11:37 GMT -5
I thought it was terribly sad but I don't think one cancels out the other. A failure to act is awful but it's not like we deliberately set out to destroy ancient works of art which ISIS has done. Removing parts of people's history is wrong. my point is that we don't have a lot of moral capital to spend. but i guess nobody understands that, so i withdraw the comment.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 12:16:21 GMT -5
If the people that lived there cared about themselves or their art/culture, they'd defend it instead of waiting for others to protect them and their stuff. I think many are busy defending their own lives right now. I hate to see this . It makes me sick.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 27, 2015 12:16:52 GMT -5
This same kind of thing has happened in the past. It happened in Morocco. It happened in Tunisia. It happened before ISIS even existed. There will always be extremists and they're not unique to Islam. They are often destructive in their zeal to push forward their "vision" of how things are supposed to be. It's sad to think of so much history being destroyed because of the extreme stance of a relative few.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 27, 2015 14:05:51 GMT -5
" highest authorities in the United States could give two flips about it."....mmmm, would that refer to Bush I wonder....??
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Post by Tiny on Feb 27, 2015 14:28:47 GMT -5
As a lapsed student of history this bothers me more than all of the beheadings and other sensationalist acts that they have perpetrated.
There comes a point when an artifact is of shared importance to all of human history (or in this case certainly of all of western history).
Barbarians. They burned old manuscripts and books a few days before this. In the past, that kinda activity was a great way to 'erase' the past and then re-write it (or not) - use to happen around the world. With the advent of globalization (and the sharing of knowledge world wide) doing the 'lets erase all the things from the past that contridict how we want the world to work' to be kind of fruitless. It just makes them look primative and uncultured.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 27, 2015 14:35:48 GMT -5
i remember it very well. i found it outrageous. i was channeling my outrage into this thread. my apologies to Ratchetts for recalling something really upsetting, and similar in end result.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 27, 2015 14:42:49 GMT -5
As a lapsed student of history this bothers me more than all of the beheadings and other sensationalist acts that they have perpetrated.
There comes a point when an artifact is of shared importance to all of human history (or in this case certainly of all of western history).
Barbarians. They burned old manuscripts and books a few days before this. In the past, that kinda activity was a great way to 'erase' the past and then re-write it (or not) - use to happen around the world. With the advent of globalization (and the sharing of knowledge world wide) doing the 'lets erase all the things from the past that contridict how we want the world to work' to be kind of fruitless. It just makes them look primative and uncultured. it is a well learned technique of occupiers in the region: destroy the cultural heritage of the occupied. it has been done since the Romans occupied wide swaths of the region.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Feb 27, 2015 15:21:28 GMT -5
They burned old manuscripts and books a few days before this. In the past, that kinda activity was a great way to 'erase' the past and then re-write it (or not) - use to happen around the world. With the advent of globalization (and the sharing of knowledge world wide) doing the 'lets erase all the things from the past that contridict how we want the world to work' to be kind of fruitless. It just makes them look primative and uncultured. it is a well learned technique of occupiers in the region: destroy the cultural heritage of the occupied. it has been done since the Romans occupied wide swaths of the region. dj, It was, and wasn't their "cultural heritage". The population of today is the by-product of Islam over the last two millenium. The culture they are destroying was much earlier than Islam. Think of the pyramids. It is the "culture" of Egypt, Central America, Cambodia, Mexico, etc, and even in the USA, but it is not "our culture". We still do not understand pyramids and their reason of existence 100% today. Same for the destruction in the museum. They do not relate to it, nor understand it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 19:19:58 GMT -5
My memory can be a little spotty sometimes... so you'll have to forgive me if I've forgotten... Exactly when did we, during ANY war, specifically target artifacts or buildings, of historical significance, of a country we have attacked or retaliated against? I'm not talking about things that get caught in the crossfire or during a "carpet bombing" or places "bad guys" are hiding in, and we have to blast them out... I mean items/places SPECIFICALLY targeted for destruction SPECIFICALLY for their cultural or historic value. this is a straw man argument, and it could not be clearer. rather than dancing this dance with you, i invite you to look at what i actually said, and upon discovering that i never said anything about targeting, either withdraw your question, or ask a relevant one. My question was a relevant one, when comparing your question to the topic at hand (that topic being the intentional destruction of historical artifacts for no strategic reason). If you can't answer my question... why not just say so?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 28, 2015 21:45:24 GMT -5
i remember it very well. i found it outrageous. i was channeling my outrage into this thread. my apologies to Ratchetts for recalling something really upsetting, and similar in end result. No problem man. I'm sure you felt whatever you wanted to talk about was very important. I'm not sure why you didn't just post it though instead of trying to badger me into a conversation. I guess you R equire an audience. i wasn't badgering, Ratchetts. i wanted your honest opinion. you will note that when you told me to piss off, i did. i stopped asking. that, i think, is the opposite of badgering. i asked you, POLITELY, twice, and you said that you had no interest in discussing it, so i moved on with the understanding i took from that exchange. you seem to think i am out to get you or something. that is not the case at all. i simply have questions to ask, and i am trying to develop an understand of you and other posters, period. it is not personal. don't take it that way.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 28, 2015 21:46:46 GMT -5
this is a straw man argument, and it could not be clearer. rather than dancing this dance with you, i invite you to look at what i actually said, and upon discovering that i never said anything about targeting, either withdraw your question, or ask a relevant one. My question was a relevant one, how so? i never said we were targeting the museum, Richard. so, either you THOUGHT i said that, or you were engaging in a straw man argument.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 21:50:48 GMT -5
My question was a relevant one, how so? i never said we were targeting the museum, Richard. so, either you THOUGHT i said that, or you were engaging in a straw man argument. No. You didn't, and if you look closely, you'll note that I never accused you of stating that. But you did ask your "straw man" question on a thread about targeting museums (or places like it)... so it was a valid rebuttal to show that your question was pointless in regards to this thread's particular subject matter.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 28, 2015 22:07:34 GMT -5
If you can't answer my question... why not just say so? because your question missed the point. i think it missed it intentionally, which i find quite frustrating. but since you and others seem confused by it, i will try ONE MORE TIME. yes, ISIS targeted museums, libraries, and historical sites. so did the Taliban. so did the Iraqi rebels (who we supported). so did the Contras. so did the Romans. that is what conquistadors do. the reason i chimed in is that we didn't seem to have any problem watching that happen in Iraq- in a situation where we were actually in charge. so, although i am sympathetic, as i am sure you are, to the destruction of antiquities, i just don't think that we, as US citizens, have a lot of moral capital on the subject. if that seemed off subject to you or anyone else, i already apologized.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 28, 2015 22:14:46 GMT -5
how so? i never said we were targeting the museum, Richard. so, either you THOUGHT i said that, or you were engaging in a straw man argument. No. You didn't, and if you look closely, you'll note that I never accused you of stating that. But you did ask your "straw man" question on a thread about targeting museums (or places like it)... so it was a valid rebuttal to show that your question was pointless in regards to this thread's particular subject matter. no. but here is why i had a problem with the question you DID ask. it has to do with "collateral damages". you and many others disagree with me on this, and that is FINE- but i don't think that a moral action can be undertaken which has immoral "collateral damages" unless it is absolutely certain that this action must be undertaken. the example i would use is the last 150+ times we have sent our military into various global "conflicts" (many of which were actually CAUSED BY US). every time we do this, we get SOME bad guys. that is for sure. but we also kill quite a few women and children. that is not acceptable to me. ditto for torture. we tortured a few bad guys- but we tortured a LOT of innocent people along with them. therefore, my inclination is to simply say that "torture is wrong" or "war is wrong". when the subject of ISIS crushing artifacts came up, my first reaction was not "oh how horrible that THEY did that". my first reaction was "that happens a lot, including in countries we invade". i think both are valid reactions, but if you gravitate toward the latter reaction it sort of bleeds the rage out of the former one, and replaces it with nausea.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 6:44:34 GMT -5
I will agree with you, provisionally, on "war is wrong"... That provision being STARTING a war is wrong. Defending one's self or defending others against an aggressor however... Up to and including making it impossible for them to make war again... is fine. It's a case of the aggressor doesn't get to pick the response.
My Father always told me: "Never start a fight, but if the fight is brought to you and you can't avoid it, or if you are helping someone else that can't avoid it, always be the one to finish it."
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 1, 2015 8:12:05 GMT -5
Fake statues? What I suspected when I saw all the dust as the statues were toppled over. The statues were too clean, too white, and not enough detail in the chiseled works : The Mosul Museum video from Islamic State could be a staged dramaThe Islamic State wants the global community to know that there's a new sheriff in town. So it wrecked a museum full of precious sculptures and on Thursday posted video of the vandalism on the Internet. At least, that's what their video wants you to think. The video quickly went viral, but there is reason for some skepticism. "Look closely, and most of the toppling statues shatter in clouds of dust. Apparently they are plaster replicas of ancient statues, not carvings in alabaster and other durable stone with which authentic imperial sculpture was made. Toppled stone would break in cleaner chunks. The Mosul Museum video from Islamic State could be a staged drama
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