ISIS Destroys Second Largest Museum in Iraq

[mmhmm]

I'm not sure I could face that site, Tennesseer. It's late. I'm tired. I've got the feeling that site is something you want to broach only if you're fully rested!

[Shooby]

Feb 26, 2015 20:37:09 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

yeah, because we just care so much about everyone else's art and history, after all.

Of course its our fault!

[Shooby]

I should know. A thread about Isis must turn into Christian bashing.

[mmhmm]

Mar 6, 2015 23:47:01 GMT -5 Shooby said:

I should know. A thread about Isis must turn into Christian bashing.

Excuse me?  Where, pray tell, are you seeing Christian bashing, Shooby?

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Skuze me, but with the shadows what they are, that looks like Eve with a beard. Jus' sayin' ...

... or a really, really bad attempt at photoshopping.

It looks like a pic taken of a display at a Museum of Natural History - that someone decided to have a little fun with.

The Fox, White Creature (polar bear?) and other thing (penguin??) have obviously been added to the photo after the fact.

Pretty amateur attempt at doctoring the photo.

.

[Tennesseer]

Mar 7, 2015 0:03:11 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Skuze me, but with the shadows what they are, that looks like Eve with a beard. Jus' sayin' ...

... or a really, really bad attempt at photoshopping.

It looks like a pic taken of a display at a Museum of Natural History - that someone decided to have a little fun with.

The Fox, White Creature (polar bear?) and other thing (penguin??) have obviously been added to the photo after the fact.

Pretty amateur attempt at doctoring the photo.

.

It is actually a diorama from the Creation Museum in Kentucky. There is a back shot of that diorama halfway down the link website below under '7 C's Of History'.

Creation Museum

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Mar 6, 2015 23:47:01 GMT -5 Shooby said:

I should know. A thread about Isis must turn into Christian bashing.

Huh? Where?

[mmhmm]

Mar 7, 2015 0:59:05 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Mar 6, 2015 23:47:01 GMT -5 Shooby said:

I should know. A thread about Isis must turn into Christian bashing.

Huh? Where?

That was my question, SL. Apparently, the comment made has no purpose as no reason for it has been brought forth. 

[EVT1]

Mar 6, 2015 23:47:01 GMT -5 Shooby said:

I should know. A thread about Isis must turn into Christian bashing.

No one is bashing Christians. I am a Christian (although a very bad example of one). I was bashing the young Earth/ answers in Genesis idiots- as in Ken Ham. 

He didn't make his money preaching the status quo- he made his money and is still raking it by taking a contrarian view and having his idiots follow it- you could see it in the 'debate' with Nye- people actually thinking.

Here is a simple rule for anyone looking for a shepherd to lead the flock- if your preacher is a millionaire your are following a false prophet (or just a thieving asshole). 

Tangent coming on- but in the day the local preachers and the local churches worked fine- and the preacher knew the congregation by name.  Now, instead of local churches that worked on a personal level with people, we have millionaire preachers in gigantic churches that could give a shit on the personal level.  In fact they have security to make sure that kind of discussion never happens.  Call them rock star preachers.  And they are- they ride in limos.  I am not sure who the sadder bunch is- preacher who have sold their souls or the idiots that pay them.

[djAdvocate]

Mar 6, 2015 23:45:14 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Feb 26, 2015 20:37:09 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

yeah, because we just care so much about everyone else's art and history, after all.

Of course its our fault!

what is?  the destruction of the 2nd largest museum in Iraq?  no.  we were responsible for the destruction of the 1st largest one, tho.

[Deleted]

Mar 7, 2015 12:46:53 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Mar 6, 2015 23:45:14 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Of course its our fault!

what is?  the destruction of the 2nd largest museum in Iraq?  no.  we were responsible for the destruction of the 1st largest one, tho.

And again, I ask: Was it something we did intentionally, as a target, solely and exclusively due to it's historic value?

[djAdvocate]

Mar 7, 2015 19:08:24 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Mar 7, 2015 12:46:53 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

what is?  the destruction of the 2nd largest museum in Iraq?  no.  we were responsible for the destruction of the 1st largest one, tho.

And again, I ask: Was it something we did intentionally, as a target, solely and exclusively due to it's historic value?

i already answered that.  it doesn't matter.  we were RESPONSIBLE, whether we did it INTENTIONALLY or not.

and again, i am not excusing ISIS.  but i find it hard to forgive ourselves. 

[Deleted]

Mar 7, 2015 19:14:26 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Mar 7, 2015 19:08:24 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

And again, I ask: Was it something we did intentionally, as a target, solely and exclusively due to it's historic value?

i already answered that.  it doesn't matter.  we were RESPONSIBLE, whether we did it INTENTIONALLY or not.

and again, i am not excusing ISIS.  but i find it hard to forgive ourselves. 

Intent always matters.

[djAdvocate]

Mar 7, 2015 19:20:34 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Mar 7, 2015 19:14:26 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i already answered that.  it doesn't matter.  we were RESPONSIBLE, whether we did it INTENTIONALLY or not.

and again, i am not excusing ISIS.  but i find it hard to forgive ourselves. 

Intent always matters.

not to the victims.  the drunk driver who runs over the old lady should get the same penalty as the sober one who runs her down on purpose, imo.  likewise, in liability law, if you are grossly negligent and your product cuts off the finger of a customer, it matters precisely dick that you did not INTEND to cut the persons finger off.  likewise to the Iraqi people who have lost their national history.  they only care who is RESPONSIBLE, they don't give a damn about intent.

[Deleted]

Mar 7, 2015 22:16:45 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Mar 7, 2015 19:20:34 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Intent always matters.

not to the victims.  the drunk driver who runs over the old lady should get the same penalty as the sober one who runs her down on purpose, imo.  likewise, in liability law, if you are grossly negligent and your product cuts off the finger of a customer, it matters precisely dick that you did not INTEND to cut the persons finger off.  likewise to the Iraqi people who have lost their national history.  they only care who is RESPONSIBLE, they don't give a damn about intent.

Yes. Even to the victims. Intent matters.

For purposes of law: If intent doesn't matter why are there different punishments (and even allowable justification... self-defense, for example) for the taking of a human life... depending on the circumstances/intent?

For purposes of personal grief/forgiveness: One can forgive something done in accident (tire blows because of unforeseen circumstance, that causes an accident, in the accident someone is injured, for example), where they could not forgive the same offense done to them on purpose (same injury, but done because the driver was told to run someone down as part of an initiation).

(for the record, I believe drinking and driving to be a purposeful act. One willfully puts the key in the car, starts it, drives it, and whatever happens happens as a result of those purposeful acts... so I agree... the penalty should be the same if someone dies due to their acts as it would be if the killer was sober)

[djAdvocate]

Mar 8, 2015 0:40:14 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

(for the record, I believe drinking and driving to be a purposeful act. One willfully puts the key in the car, starts it, drives it, and whatever happens happens as a result of those purposeful acts... so I agree... the penalty should be the same if someone dies due to their acts as it would be if the killer was sober)

not to defend the drunk driver, but they often don't know what they are doing.  they don't INTEND to kill anyone.  that does NOT excuse them.  they have a car.  they have the keys.  they get drunk, without giving up those keys.  therefore, they are guilty of manslaughter.  period.  their intentions are irrelevant.

now, using this same logic in Iraq- we roll in and occupy the place.  the police are no longer in charge.  we are.  so, now, we are sitting there and watching as antiquities get raided.  that is our fault, because once we took over, we were the authority.  therefore, we are guilty of letting those antiquities go to pot, because we had the keys.

i could go so far as to say that the act was purposeful, but that would assume that our government actually considered the idea that we would not be greeted as heroes for liberating Iraq, and that is i think somewhat doubtful.  so then it falls to how our government became stupid enough to think otherwise, which is a meta-discussion that i am not all that interested in.  the fact remains that they should have foreseen this, and given up the keys before they ran over grandma, or preferably have never gone out to the Baghdad Bar in the first place.

[EVT1]

Mar 8, 2015 0:40:14 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Mar 7, 2015 22:16:45 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

not to the victims.  the drunk driver who runs over the old lady should get the same penalty as the sober one who runs her down on purpose, imo.  likewise, in liability law, if you are grossly negligent and your product cuts off the finger of a customer, it matters precisely dick that you did not INTEND to cut the persons finger off.  likewise to the Iraqi people who have lost their national history.  they only care who is RESPONSIBLE, they don't give a damn about intent.

Yes. Even to the victims. Intent matters.

For purposes of law: If intent doesn't matter why are there different punishments (and even allowable justification... self-defense, for example) for the taking of a human life... depending on the circumstances/intent?

For purposes of personal grief/forgiveness: One can forgive something done in accident (tire blows because of unforeseen circumstance, that causes an accident, in the accident someone is injured, for example), where they could not forgive the same offense done to them on purpose (same injury, but done because the driver was told to run someone down as part of an initiation).

(for the record, I believe drinking and driving to be a purposeful act. One willfully puts the key in the car, starts it, drives it, and whatever happens happens as a result of those purposeful acts... so I agree... the penalty should be the same if someone dies due to their acts as it would be if the killer was sober)

I think texting and driving, talking on the phone and driving is on equal footing with drunk driving- and I also think the .08 limit is bullshit.  The people causing crashes because they are hammered are not .08.  .08 is a revenue generator.

[Deleted]

Mar 8, 2015 1:29:36 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Mar 8, 2015 0:40:14 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

(for the record, I believe drinking and driving to be a purposeful act. One willfully puts the key in the car, starts it, drives it, and whatever happens happens as a result of those purposeful acts... so I agree... the penalty should be the same if someone dies due to their acts as it would be if the killer was sober)

not to defend the drunk driver, but they often don't know what they are doing.  they don't INTEND to kill anyone.  that does NOT excuse them.  they have a car.  they have the keys.  they get drunk, without giving up those keys.  therefore, they are guilty of manslaughter.  period.  their intentions are irrelevant.

now, using this same logic in Iraq- we roll in and occupy the place.  the police are no longer in charge.  we are.  so, now, we are sitting there and watching as antiquities get raided.  that is our fault, because once we took over, we were the authority.  therefore, we are guilty of letting those antiquities go to pot, because we had the keys.

i could go so far as to say that the act was purposeful, but that would assume that our government actually considered the idea that we would not be greeted as heroes for liberating Iraq, and that is i think somewhat doubtful.  so then it falls to how our government became stupid enough to think otherwise, which is a meta-discussion that i am not all that interested in.  the fact remains that they should have foreseen this, and given up the keys before they ran over grandma, or preferably have never gone out to the Baghdad Bar in the first place.

Comparing collateral damage to DUI is laughable.

Now... if you wanted to compare picking targets at random after drinking as being comparable to DUI... you might have a case.

[Deleted]

Mar 8, 2015 3:41:55 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Mar 8, 2015 0:40:14 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Yes. Even to the victims. Intent matters.

For purposes of law: If intent doesn't matter why are there different punishments (and even allowable justification... self-defense, for example) for the taking of a human life... depending on the circumstances/intent?

For purposes of personal grief/forgiveness: One can forgive something done in accident (tire blows because of unforeseen circumstance, that causes an accident, in the accident someone is injured, for example), where they could not forgive the same offense done to them on purpose (same injury, but done because the driver was told to run someone down as part of an initiation).

(for the record, I believe drinking and driving to be a purposeful act. One willfully puts the key in the car, starts it, drives it, and whatever happens happens as a result of those purposeful acts... so I agree... the penalty should be the same if someone dies due to their acts as it would be if the killer was sober)

I think texting and driving, talking on the phone and driving is on equal footing with drunk driving- and I also think the .08 limit is bullshit.  The people causing crashes because they are hammered are not .08.  .08 is a revenue generator.

I agree with the bolded points as well.

(some people, however, ARE "hammered" {or at least "functionally impaired"} at .08... the problem with .08 is that MANY aren't even close to "impaired" at that level. Alcohol effect isn't even across the board for every single person.)

[EVT1]

Forget the breathalyzer van- bring in the driving simulator van- maybe we can also catch a few sober idiots that can't drive in the first place

[Tennesseer]

Mar 8, 2015 15:08:58 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Forget the breathalyzer van- bring in the driving simulator van- maybe we can also catch a few sober idiots that can't drive in the first place

Give the sober idiots the Florida Space Coast 'boat horn' test and see how the handle the stress.

[djAdvocate]

Mar 8, 2015 5:22:08 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Mar 8, 2015 1:29:36 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

not to defend the drunk driver, but they often don't know what they are doing.  they don't INTEND to kill anyone.  that does NOT excuse them.  they have a car.  they have the keys.  they get drunk, without giving up those keys.  therefore, they are guilty of manslaughter.  period.  their intentions are irrelevant.

now, using this same logic in Iraq- we roll in and occupy the place.  the police are no longer in charge.  we are.  so, now, we are sitting there and watching as antiquities get raided.  that is our fault, because once we took over, we were the authority.  therefore, we are guilty of letting those antiquities go to pot, because we had the keys.

i could go so far as to say that the act was purposeful, but that would assume that our government actually considered the idea that we would not be greeted as heroes for liberating Iraq, and that is i think somewhat doubtful.  so then it falls to how our government became stupid enough to think otherwise, which is a meta-discussion that i am not all that interested in.  the fact remains that they should have foreseen this, and given up the keys before they ran over grandma, or preferably have never gone out to the Baghdad Bar in the first place.

Comparing collateral damage to DUI is laughable.

i wasn't comparing it to DUI.  many people DUI and don't cause any harm whatsoever.  i was comparing it to a DUI which results in the death or injury of another person.  and i think the comparison is apt in the following sense: that the responsible party does not INTEND to hurt anyone, but due to their IRRESPONSIBILITY, and their FAILURE TO TAKE PROPER PRECAUTIONS, they do so.  from MY perspective that is IDENTICAL to what happened when Baghdad fell, and tons of crap happened which we didn't predict, but reasonably could have and should have predicted. 

not sure why you or Ratchetts seem to think that is funny.  you must have more of a gallows humor than me. 

ow... if you wanted to compare picking targets at random after drinking as being comparable to DUI... you might have a case.

no, that would miss my point entirely.  the entire point of the argument is that we did NOT target the museum.  that is a separate argument, which applies ONLY to ISIS (and which you are hung up on).  MY point is about RESPONSIBILITY.  YOURS is about intent.  you don't care about mine.  i don't care about yours.  but please stop belittling my argument just because you don't care about it.  i have not belittled yours.  i have simply explained why it doesn't matter to me.

if i think my gun is unloaded and i accidentally shoot your dog, would you let me off the hook for that?

if anyone ever wanted an example of what "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" means in terms of foreign policy, a generous assessment of Iraq would be a case study in it.  many of the neocons thought they were doing a good thing there, when in fact they were doing a great evil.

[djAdvocate]

Richard- let's just let this one go.  you think intent is a big deal.  i don't.  couldn't care less about intent.  i am not going to convince you that responsibility matters more than intent, and you are not going to convince me that intent matters more than responsibility.  we are wasting each other's time.

[deziloooooo]

Mar 8, 2015 20:21:54 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Richard- let's just let this one go.  you think intent is a big deal.  i don't.  couldn't care less about intent.  i am not going to convince you that responsibility matters more than intent, and you are not going to convince me that intent matters more than responsibility.  we are wasting each other's time.

Just a thought here..not really wanting to go back over three/four pages to see  where this went off topic but what happened to the discussion of ISIS destroying another museum / archeological site...I came here because of a report on one of the Sunday Morning shows, think CBS Sunday Morning  showing the hugh winged arch way and other objects being destroyed and whikle I have never seen these or would probably see them in my life time..believe have seen some objects, similer , in the NY metropoloitan years ago ...but I felt so sad, almost had tears in my eyues, silly I guess , what is it to me , though these are all part of all of us...and I did get very mad, actually for the first time almost battle anger..some might know what I mean..it gets you through certain things in life , usually a controlled out of control short term rage that wants you to destroy and obliterate..and I did feel a bit of that..but see this is not the place to express one feelings of what is happening over there..seems car rage is the newest topic of interest?

[djAdvocate]

Mar 8, 2015 21:29:33 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

Mar 8, 2015 20:21:54 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Richard- let's just let this one go.  you think intent is a big deal.  i don't.  couldn't care less about intent.  i am not going to convince you that responsibility matters more than intent, and you are not going to convince me that intent matters more than responsibility.  we are wasting each other's time.

Just a thought here..not really wanting to go back over three/four pages to see  where this went off topic but what happened to the discussion of ISIS destroying another museum / archeological site...I came here because of a report on one of the Sunday Morning shows, think CBS Sunday Morning  showing the hugh winged arch way and other objects being destroyed and whikle I have never seen these or would probably see them in my life time..believe have seen some objects, similer , in the NY metropoloitan years ago ...but I felt so sad, almost had tears in my eyues, silly I guess , what is it to me , though these are all part of all of us...and I did get very mad, actually for the first time almost battle anger..some might know what I mean..it gets you through certain things in life , usually a controlled out of control short term rage that wants you to destroy and obliterate..and I did feel a bit of that..but see this is not the place to express one feelings of what is happening over there..seems car rage is the newest topic of interest?

apparently at least some (most?) if the ISIS thing is a complete hoax.  but yes, they have destroyed SOME artifacts.

and they have destroyed some other "facsimiles" of artifacts.

i would not believe ANY of their propaganda.  that is a good place to start.  work forward from there.