NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 17, 2015 9:05:15 GMT -5
I didn't like the book but that doesn't mean other people aren't entitled to enjoy it. Goodness knows I enjoy other books that ruffle people's feathers in various ways.
I was objecting to the idea that if women read this book that must be what we want as reality. It's a fantasy and should be taken as such.
I've read the Sleeping Beauty books by Anne Rice but there is no way on earth I want that kind of relationship in real life. There's A LOT wrong in those books too.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 17, 2015 9:32:45 GMT -5
Actually, while we here aren't saying its a natural relationship, I do think general public is suggesting this is a sexy appropriate relationship... And that is the issue. Who is to say it isn't, for some? That is my point. Different strokes.....
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 17, 2015 9:37:03 GMT -5
I didn't like the book but that doesn't mean other people aren't entitled to enjoy it. Goodness knows I enjoy other books that ruffle people's feathers in various ways.
I was objecting to the idea that if women read this book that must be what we want as reality. It's a fantasy and should be taken as such.
I've read the Sleeping Beauty books by Anne Rice but there is no way on earth I want that kind of relationship in real life. There's A LOT wrong in those books too.
I think that Phoenix was the only person who assumed this.....that this was what women wanted. Everyone has their own fantasies and my fantasies are not your's. Hell, if this book spiced up the bedroom for some who needed it, then it's not a bad thing.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2015 9:38:55 GMT -5
I'm not saying that BDSM can't be an appropriate relationship for those that choose it. But this is not that. This, from what I've read and saw, is an abusive relationship, not to be emulated...
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 17, 2015 9:40:15 GMT -5
I have to say I am enjoying the direction this thread has taken. I haven't been able to rip into a book and debate it with people since college.
I do think for me I hate Twilight, so I am not going to enjoy a book that is essentially plagiarism with some BDSM thrown in.
Adding to that Edward Cullen is a vampire. I do think some of his behavior is creepy/disturbing but it fits with the archetype. Vampires are 100% fictional characters so you have a lot more leeway and based on numerous other novels/shows have an expectation/understanding of how they behave. Take that and glom it into a character that is supposed to be a "real" person and IMO it gets disturbing and hard to suspend belief. While Edward, Eric, Bill or Lestat can get away with certain things a normal person would be thrown in jail or at least have a restraining order against them.
Everyone has their own fantasies and my fantasies are not your's.
Never aid they were and never said nobody else is allowed to enjoy the book. it has a right to exist and people have a right to enjoy it. I am not calling for a ban on it or anything.
I'm just debating it. What is the point of discussing a book if you're only allowed to say you like it or that "it's just a book?"
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Feb 18, 2015 11:46:38 GMT -5
TBH, I don't really care about the topic of the book. BDSM or whatever. Whatever floats your boat. If this were well-executed prose carried out by a competent author, I wouldn't give a rat's ass about it. The fact that it is poorly executed trash and still sold a hundred million copies is my main cause for alarm. One. Hundred. Million. Copies. And, since that it is unarguable truth that if you bought and enjoyed this book, you are a brain-dead retard, that means that there are at least in the high tens of millions of brain-dead retards out there. (The reduced number is for those who bought but ending up hating the book, although if you fall into this group, you're still suspect for being dumb enough to spend good money on it in the first place) I mean, we kind of already knew this, but it's still scary to get such an overwhelming confirmation based on one single, distinct event. The Dumbening is accelerating...
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Feb 18, 2015 12:46:44 GMT -5
I read for no other reasons than enjoyment and relaxation. I could neither enjoy or relax reading if I sat there and dissected the talent of a writer. Here's what it is. If it keeps my interest, the writing is good. Period. If it doesn't, it's probably because the subject matter doesn't interest me.
I honestly don't know what people consider "good" writing or "poor" writing. My definition is stated above. So....the question. What is it about this person's writing that is "bad"? Specifics please. I really am interested in learning what is bad and what is good. Since I read, on the average, 3 books a week and have for 20 years, I should probably learn.
And please? Skip the "Inner Goddess" shit and go on to real examples. I really am interested and I know it isn't right to ask a question and then tell people you don't want to hear certain examples. It's just that I've heard the "Inner Goddness" thing a million times in relation to what makes the writing bad...and nothing else. Nothing. I'm interested in the opinions of "real" readers.
Thank you!
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Feb 18, 2015 14:33:16 GMT -5
I read for no other reasons than enjoyment and relaxation. I could neither enjoy or relax reading if I sat there and dissected the talent of a writer. Here's what it is. If it keeps my interest, the writing is good. Period. If it doesn't, it's probably because the subject matter doesn't interest me.
I honestly don't know what people consider "good" writing or "poor" writing. My definition is stated above. So....the question. What is it about this person's writing that is "bad"? Specifics please. I really am interested in learning what is bad and what is good. Since I read, on the average, 3 books a week and have for 20 years, I should probably learn.
And please? Skip the "Inner Goddess" shit and go on to real examples. I really am interested and I know it isn't right to ask a question and then tell people you don't want to hear certain examples. It's just that I've heard the "Inner Goddness" thing a million times in relation to what makes the writing bad...and nothing else. Nothing. I'm interested in the opinions of "real" readers.
Thank you! I'm sorry, but your definition is wrong. What an individual likes has nothing to do with the quality of the thing in question, nor the talent it took to create that thing. If I like McDonalds food, does that make it quality cuisine? If I enjoy watching Honey Boo Boo, does that make it a quality show? If I enjoy listening to Justin Beiber's music, but hate Mozart, does that make Beiber a talented musician, and Mozart a talentless hack? As far as what's "good" writing, well I'm no skilled literary critic who spends a lot of time dissecting this topic, so I can't give you something hard and concrete like "15 literary tenets that make a quality author" off the top of my head. Nor am I going to go looking for such information to regurgitate here (sorry, don't care enough ). Although I suspect the topic is somewhat subjective, the information is out there and you should be able to find it if you're interested enough to do the research. But if you want a quick, simple test, just pick a genre that you enjoy, then find out which authors are considered to be extremely talented (note: not "popular", not "sold the most books" although sometimes the two go hand in hand) within this genre. Then read their works and compare them with 50 Shades. You should be able to notice some marked differences. If you can't, well...there's nothing I can really say at that point.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 18, 2015 14:34:24 GMT -5
I read for no other reasons than enjoyment and relaxation. I could neither enjoy or relax reading if I sat there and dissected the talent of a writer. Here's what it is. If it keeps my interest, the writing is good. Period. If it doesn't, it's probably because the subject matter doesn't interest me.
I honestly don't know what people consider "good" writing or "poor" writing. My definition is stated above. So....the question. What is it about this person's writing that is "bad"? Specifics please. I really am interested in learning what is bad and what is good. Since I read, on the average, 3 books a week and have for 20 years, I should probably learn.
And please? Skip the "Inner Goddess" shit and go on to real examples. I really am interested and I know it isn't right to ask a question and then tell people you don't want to hear certain examples. It's just that I've heard the "Inner Goddness" thing a million times in relation to what makes the writing bad...and nothing else. Nothing. I'm interested in the opinions of "real" readers.
Thank you! So, I shared this guy's work earlier in the thread, but I'm not sure I explained what it was. He basically wrote an entire MFA dissertation on his blog explaining why this is a terrible book. Here's a quote: "Even if readers split off into "Team Christian" and "Team José" factions we all still probably would've realized that Ana and CG were going to end up together in the end. But that's ok! This is commercial storytelling! It's not like when I go see the Transformers fight the Decepticons I think for even a moment that the Decepticons will win. That's not the point. In this kind of "junk food" entertainment, we're not really wondering how the thing is going to end. We know how it's going to end. What's entertaining is being surprised about the twists and turns the story takes before arriving at its scheduled destination. So how does 50 Shades measure up? Not very well! Let's look at a sort of "default" romance plot, rephrased for more inclusive times: person meets person, person loses person, person does some stuff and gets person back, and also maybe there's a cool montage. To generalize: the romance plot depends upon some kind of external obstacle which keeps apart two people we'd like to see together. Right? Great. So what happens in this story? They get together immediately, and face no external obstacles. All the potential external obstacles are abandoned, and we just have the fact that CG is a shitty person and Ana is a complete maroon. I've discussed this before, I'm sure, but here I am again: the only thing keeping these two from having a happy relationship is that they're just not right for each other. So instead of a story that's about some likable characters overcoming obstacles, what we have is some unlikable characters moping around until they decide that maybe they should just stay together because of inertia. Riveting! Meaning this: This love story is basically the story of every shitty relationship ever, except for the part where the guy is a billionaire and has a specific sexual requirements. " www.thecomplainist.com/2013/10/50-shades-of-complainist-chapter-25.html#moreHe explains much more, going in great detail about basics of writing, and lack of consistency, and all kinds of other stuff. The first 12 chapters or so were hilarious, BTW. Later on, it just gets more sad.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Feb 18, 2015 14:43:32 GMT -5
Oh....I know my definition is wrong! That's why I'm asking.
I'm sure there is somebody out there that speaks about poor writing. I've just seen so many people here post that this was an example of poor writing and I'd like to know why. That's all. I'm not talking subject matter here....but actual writing. I'd like to learn from those who know so I don't waste even more countless hours reading material that is poorly written.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Feb 18, 2015 14:49:45 GMT -5
Interesting, Frozen Lizard. I was just commenting the other day that I don't care for Gillian Flynn's writing because she (purposely I'm assuming) creates just utterly unlikeable characters. That doesn't mean she is a poor writer, but it does mean I don't like her style. Subjective, I suppose. Thank you for your link. I'll read it later when I have more time....as long as it's well written!
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 18, 2015 14:53:47 GMT -5
For me, and yes I know this doesn't apply to everyone, part of what makes it such bad writing is I can tell she's never done any research on her chosen subject.
I prefer that the author of the book have some at least some background research. 50 Shades is Twilight fan-fic so she's copying another author's work and threw in some sex to make it "hers". At least I can tell when I read it that she didn't really WRITE anything.
Compare that to The Claiming of Sleeping Beauty by Anne Rice. That book is way more hardcore than 50 Shades so it isn't the violence or sex that is the issue. Anne Rice does extensive background research for her novels (or at least used to) and it shows in the prose. I can suspend belief because I am not seeing constant inconsistencies/errors in the subject matter.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 18, 2015 14:55:44 GMT -5
I was just commenting the other day that I don't care for Gillian Flynn's writing because she (purposely I'm assuming) creates just utterly unlikeable characters
I go back and forth with Gillian Flynn. I enjoyed Gone Girl up till the end. I am lukewarm on the other two.
What I don't like about her is the books just "end" there is no conclusion. That seems to be the popular way to write books nowadays though so I can't really say it's "bad" writing from that perspective.
But if we go by what I learned in English class t hat books are supposed to have a beginning, ascending action, climax, descending action and then a conclusion her books drive me up a wall.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 18, 2015 15:04:36 GMT -5
Oh....I know my definition is wrong! That's why I'm asking. I'm sure there is somebody out there that speaks about poor writing. I've just seen so many people here post that this was an example of poor writing and I'd like to know why. That's all. I'm not talking subject matter here....but actual writing. I'd like to learn from those who know so I don't waste even more countless hours reading material that is poorly written. I've only read the samples on Amazon, and I'm no literary critic, but first off I noticed that the wording is off. Here's a quote from Amazon: "Behind the solid sandstone desk, a very attractive, groomed, blonde young woman smiles pleasantly at me. She’s wearing the sharpest charcoal suit jacket and white shirt I have ever seen. She looks immaculate. “I’m here to see Mr. Grey. Anastasia Steele for Katherine Kavanagh.” “Excuse me one moment, Miss Steele.” She arches her eyebrow as I stand self-consciously before her. I’m beginning to wish I’d borrowed one of Kate’s formal blazers rather than worn my navy-blue jacket. I have made an effort and worn my one and only skirt, my sensible brown knee-length boots, and a blue sweater. For me, this is smart. I tuck one of the escaped tendrils of my hair behind my ear as I pretend she doesn’t intimidate me. “Miss Kavanagh is expected. Please sign in here, Miss Steele. You’ll want the last elevator on the right, press for the twentieth floor.” She smiles kindly at me, amused no doubt, as I sign in." Does this sound like something a 21 year-old American woman would narrate, or a middle-aged British woman? The character is supposed to be the 21 yo American.."groomed, blonde young woman", young compared to 21? (I doubt it), "immaculate", "smart" as in looking, but not IQ? "press for the twentieth floor"? I've never heard that expression before, you know, having been a 21 year-old (American) woman living in America and all, even in 2011 when I was no longer 21 but still living in America. Anyway, that's just one small example from someone who hasn't even read the book.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 18, 2015 15:07:58 GMT -5
Interesting, Frozen Lizard. I was just commenting the other day that I don't care for Gillian Flynn's writing because she (purposely I'm assuming) creates just utterly unlikeable characters. That doesn't mean she is a poor writer, but it does mean I don't like her style. Subjective, I suppose. Thank you for your link. I'll read it later when I have more time....as long as it's well written! That was just one observation by him towards the end of the book. There are many more critiques of the writing itself early on in his blog. He explains why things don't work well with the way they are written, whereas I only notice that the writing is confusing or awkward.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Feb 18, 2015 15:09:04 GMT -5
Oh....I agree! I didn't like Gone Girl either. It was very, very predictable. The others were worse. I followed the herd on her being a bestseller author and I think we can all agree that really doesn't mean anything except hype makes people go out and buy it. I fully admit I like to feel "satisfied" at the end of a book and you are absolutely right. You don't get that with her.
In Gone Girl, I recall three main characters - all were unlikeable. The husband was a cheater and a jerk who seems to care way less that his wife was missing and only that he was being blamed for it. The wife was just a vengeful, nasty, spoiled, self-centered witch. His sister was an unnecessarily crude character that really brought nothing to the story, IMO.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 18, 2015 15:13:28 GMT -5
I do think, personally, if 50 Shades hadn't come out hard on the heels of Twilight mania it wouldn't have done near as well as it did.
I LOATHE Twilight so I should have expected I'd want to stab my eyeballs out reading what is basically plagiarism of said book.
Honestly when I saw part of the 50 Shades trailer where Grey "rescues" Anastasia from another guy I thought for a moment I was witnessing another Twilight movie trailer. I had a panic attack, we don't need another Twilight movie!
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 18, 2015 15:20:37 GMT -5
... Does this sound like something a 21 year-old American woman would narrate, ...? ... A university senior 4.0 English Literature major 21 year old American woman? Yes it does.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Feb 18, 2015 15:21:23 GMT -5
If the internet has taught me anything it's that a person doesn't need to be talented (Paris Hilton, ___ Kardashian) nor does a product need to be good for it to be successful. I know someone who is older that was into all of the twilight stuff and I can imagine her writing late night cinemax junk like 50 shades while dealing with the realization that the twilight stuff would eventually end. The movie is getting terrible reviews by most critics and it's getting hammered on IMDB yet it's making a ton of money. I sure wouldn't waste my time with it and thankfully it's nothing my girlfriend has any desire to read or see but to each their own.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 18, 2015 15:24:59 GMT -5
My SIL is REALLY into Twilight and she's almost 50. DH thinks it's creepy that his sister is obsessed with a tween novel.
He tried to watch the movie on FX. He made it 10 minutes in before he announced he was going to change the channel before he killed himself.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Feb 18, 2015 15:29:41 GMT -5
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Feb 18, 2015 15:30:42 GMT -5
I do think, personally, if 50 Shades hadn't come out hard on the heels of Twilight mania it wouldn't have done near as well as it did.
I LOATHE Twilight so I should have expected I'd want to stab my eyeballs out reading what is basically plagiarism of said book.
Honestly when I saw part of the 50 Shades trailer where Grey "rescues" Anastasia from another guy I thought for a moment I was witnessing another Twilight movie trailer. I had a panic attack, we don't need another Twilight movie! So...you didn't like the Twilight saga? I didn't hate it. I just felt it was rather....teenagery.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 18, 2015 15:32:55 GMT -5
one person finds unusual or out-of-place or abnormal may not seem unusual, out-of-place or abnormal to someone else.
I read Glenn Duncan's books and he's very British in his writing. I was quite shocked to read a certain "c" word in every other paragraph, apparently they don't have the same hangs up about that word that we Americans do.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Feb 18, 2015 15:35:26 GMT -5
ACK!!! I don't like the "c" word. It makes me want to....I'm a poor writer...I can't accurately express what it makes me want to do!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2015 15:38:11 GMT -5
I like Glynn. I am ok with 'fantastically flawed' characters now and again. Most of us are rather flawed. I notice she hasn't come out with anything new though. Gone Girl might end up her Da Vince Code...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2015 15:39:39 GMT -5
Most of the teenagers I know are smarter than that (twilight). I do know several groups of grown women who own all the dolls and waited up to see each movie...
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Feb 18, 2015 15:49:03 GMT -5
Oh dear....
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 18, 2015 15:55:43 GMT -5
I did work in a corporate office for more than a decade, so I do understand corporate-speak. This was still odd-sounding. Anyway, those were just a few examples from a very small sample section. I could have picked more from that section, but then I'd have to quote more. Like I mentioned before, I hoped after reading that part that those (and some other) issues I had would resolve themselves further into the book. From the reviews that I read, they didn't.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Feb 18, 2015 15:57:50 GMT -5
I fully admit to skipping over a lot of descriptive "fluff" in any book I read when I don't feel it adds to the story. It's very possible, in doing that, that I missed some of what people are saying are poorly written passages.
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Icelandic Woman
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Post by Icelandic Woman on Feb 18, 2015 15:59:19 GMT -5
If the internet has taught me anything it's that a person doesn't need to be talented (Paris Hilton, ___ Kardashian) nor does a product need to be good for it to be successful. I know someone who is older that was into all of the twilight stuff and I can imagine her writing late night cinemax junk like 50 shades while dealing with the realization that the twilight stuff would eventually end. The movie is getting terrible reviews by most critics and it's getting hammered on IMDB yet it's making a ton of money. I sure wouldn't waste my time with it and thankfully it's nothing my girlfriend has any desire to read or see but to each their own. Bob how can you really be surprised it is making so much money and now the movie too? Here we are 6 pages later still talking about it. And somebody else started another thread about it. Like I said earlier when the book first came out I really considered reading it because I wanted to know what everyone was talking about, I got over it. As long as it keeps being discussed, positively or negatively, it will continue making money.
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