quince
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Post by quince on Feb 5, 2015 13:57:48 GMT -5
To me, feminism has always been about choices. How lucky are we to live in a society where both men and women have so many choices and aren't repressed as an inferior group. Sadly, over the years it's been misconstrued into something else entirely and now there is a backlash inclusive of entire anti-feminism communities. These communities believe that the feminist movement is taking away their choices to support their man, stay at home, allow the man to be the leader of the household, etc. Unfortunately, this is now what it means to a whole new generation of women who have no clue: womenagainstfeminism.tumblr.com/"I don't identify as a feminist because I don't want these women to be MY VOICE." "I don't need feminism because a GOOD man raised me, a GREAT man loves me, millions DIED for me, and THEY don't deserve your SHIT!" "I don't need feminism because I want to promise my man to love him, honor him and obey him!" You know that there are feminists that mock what they call "choice" feminism, right? That choice is fine, as long as you make the right choice? Feminist is a big, broad umbrella, and it has many many wonderful things under it, but also a few ugly things as well.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 14:10:07 GMT -5
That's like saying no one is trying to cure cancer because they are too busy working on heart disease. You don't interrupt the people talking about the heart disease and ask why they aren't also curing cancer, why is that done when a feminist issue is brought up? For me, it is more about talking about how the heart and other parts of the body are connected and we should be careful to not develop a cure for heart disease that causes cancer. To me it comes across as stop talking about heart disease and don't even think about curing it because my uncle's sister's hairdressers nephew had a friend that had cancer.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 14:10:56 GMT -5
What is MRA?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 5, 2015 14:12:49 GMT -5
Women ABSOLUTELY denigrate SAHDs. Not just men. And when it comes to the communities built for SAHPs: SAHDs are often not welcome, or treated as predators for being at the park with their kids. Women denigrate men for wearing pink, and not acting in typical "manly" fashion. Just look at the threads we've had on these boards where women talk about how they want their men to be men. That's the ugly thing about sexism and feminism..it's not men keeping women down. Men AND women treat men and women unequally. I've had friends react rather unpleasantly when I say something like my kid needs his father just as much as he needs me. I know Gira has had issues with how family reacts to her husband being the SAHP: and it's probably not just the boys acting that way. In my own family, my brother was starting his business, but not talking about it, so people assumed he was the SAHS...of the people who made comments, it wasn't the men scolding him. I'm keeping an eye on how my husband's family treats my son and any other children we might have, because while my mom is a feminist and will get my dad in line when it comes to the toys he plays with and any gender stereotypes: my husband's parents consist of a MRA (the yucky kind) and his mother who gave me this book: www.amazon.com/Have-New-Husband-Friday-Communication-ebook/dp/B009NF6ASY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423162394&sr=8-1&keywords=have+a+new+husband+in+7+daysThat book isn't kind to men OR women, in my opinion. It's not just the men who maintain the rigid gender roles. I haven't encountered that in my community. Men are strongly encouraged to take a more active role in child-rearing. They're given paid paternity leave. They're not sneered at for doing so.
I remember being on another board when the issue came up of a boy wanting an EZBake oven. The women were all for it, while the men were having hissy fits. "Why do you want to turn my boy into a girl? Notions like that should be smacked out of them! It will turn them into fa**ots!" Boys should play with pistols and trucks!
It was pretty sad.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 14:15:18 GMT -5
I find that to be true too.
I have no problem with the idea that not all feminists agree on everything. We don't expect all men to agree on everything. I'm not responsible for everything anyone that ever claimed to be a feminist every said or did.
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quince
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Post by quince on Feb 5, 2015 14:17:46 GMT -5
MRA: Men's Rights Activist. Lots of misogyny to be found, personally if i think there's a little ugly in the feminist movement, I think there's a lot of ugly when it comes to MRAs, so maybe I'll just call myself a feminist and a gender egalitarian.
The way Men's Rights are often presented basically makes it very easy to ignore the real problems because the people presenting them are such assholes. Makes me kind of sad.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Feb 5, 2015 14:22:11 GMT -5
Women ABSOLUTELY denigrate SAHDs. Not just men. And when it comes to the communities built for SAHPs: SAHDs are often not welcome, or treated as predators for being at the park with their kids. Women denigrate men for wearing pink, and not acting in typical "manly" fashion. Just look at the threads we've had on these boards where women talk about how they want their men to be men. That's the ugly thing about sexism and feminism..it's not men keeping women down. Men AND women treat men and women unequally. I've had friends react rather unpleasantly when I say something like my kid needs his father just as much as he needs me. I know Gira has had issues with how family reacts to her husband being the SAHP: and it's probably not just the boys acting that way. In my own family, my brother was starting his business, but not talking about it, so people assumed he was the SAHS...of the people who made comments, it wasn't the men scolding him. I'm keeping an eye on how my husband's family treats my son and any other children we might have, because while my mom is a feminist and will get my dad in line when it comes to the toys he plays with and any gender stereotypes: my husband's parents consist of a MRA (the yucky kind) and his mother who gave me this book: www.amazon.com/Have-New-Husband-Friday-Communication-ebook/dp/B009NF6ASY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423162394&sr=8-1&keywords=have+a+new+husband+in+7+daysThat book isn't kind to men OR women, in my opinion. It's not just the men who maintain the rigid gender roles. I haven't encountered that in my community. Men are strongly encouraged to take a more active role in child-rearing. They're given paid paternity leave. They're not sneered at for doing so.
I remember being on another board when the issue came up of a boy wanting an EZBake oven. The women were all for it, while the men were having hissy fits. "Why do you want to turn my boy into a girl? Notions like that should be smacked out of them! It will turn them into fa**ots!" Boys should play with pistols and trucks!
It was pretty sad.
It's not like that in my community either. Men are given the same paternity leave as women at my work = 12 weeks at 100% pay covered under a parental leave benefit also available to employees who adopt. But, I guess that benefit is biased against people who don't have children or became employees after having children. Pink is accepted as the universally flattering color for all shades of skin. So, everyone wears it and it does look great on everyone. Sure, you can find people who pick on everything, but that's human nature. If I talked about my choices, I might have 10 people who tell me who awesome I am and 2 or 3 who criticize me- just like this board. People tend to focus on the negative comments and forget they had a majority positive reaction.
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quince
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Post by quince on Feb 5, 2015 14:27:52 GMT -5
I haven't found that denigrating men who make non-traditional choices is what's happening all the time in my community, just that it isn't heavily weighted toward males doing the denigrating. Mostly people mind their own damned business, or go.. "Huh." and get on with their life.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 5, 2015 14:29:39 GMT -5
I'm totally OK with occupations requiring some special physical abilities. I'm totally ok with the majority of women NOT being able to pass the physical requirements for being a fireman. But a woman who can pass the test and wants to and CAN do the job shouldn't be told "sorry, this is man's work".
Actually there is a drag test as part of the qualification test. And the bolded part is exactly what I've been saying. I dont care if you are a man,woman, black,white Christian, Muslim, able, disabled, or whatever else. If you can't do the job (whatever it is) you have no business being there. But, were the physical requirements really valid to begin with? Are they outdated? Or were they put in place to specifically exclude certain male people? We don't really know if the ability to complete the physical 'test' has any bearing on actually doing a fireman's job.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 5, 2015 14:34:54 GMT -5
I haven't encountered that in my community. Men are strongly encouraged to take a more active role in child-rearing. They're given paid paternity leave. They're not sneered at for doing so.
I remember being on another board when the issue came up of a boy wanting an EZBake oven. The women were all for it, while the men were having hissy fits. "Why do you want to turn my boy into a girl? Notions like that should be smacked out of them! It will turn them into fa**ots!" Boys should play with pistols and trucks!
It was pretty sad.
It's not like that in my community either. Men are given the same paternity leave as women at my work = 12 weeks at 100% pay covered under a parental leave benefit also available to employees who adopt. But, I guess that benefit is biased against people who don't have children or became employees after having children. Pink is accepted as the universally flattering color for all shades of skin. So, everyone wears it and it does look great on everyone. Sure, you can find people who pick on everything, but that's human nature. If I talked about my choices, I might have 10 people who tell me who awesome I am and 2 or 3 who criticize me- just like this board. People tend to focus on the negative comments and forget they had a majority positive reaction. I didn't see any male positive reactions on the EZBake oven thread. None, but it was a staunchly conservative board. The men were absolutely aghast at the notion of a boy wanting to play with an oven instead of trucks. I think a lot of it stems from a fear that it will "turn their sons into fa**ots". How do you fight against something so stupid? They wouldn't listen to people who said you're either born gay or you're not. They were absolutely convinced that it's a choice, a choice their sons would make if they're "sissified".
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 5, 2015 14:42:18 GMT -5
Actually there is a drag test as part of the qualification test. And the bolded part is exactly what I've been saying. I dont care if you are a man,woman, black,white Christian, Muslim, able, disabled, or whatever else. If you can't do the job (whatever it is) you have no business being there. But, were the physical requirements really valid to begin with? Are they outdated? Or were they put in place to specifically exclude certain male people? We don't really know if the ability to complete the physical 'test' has any bearing on actually doing a fireman's job. The rallying cry of those who can't meet the requirements has always been "the requirements are dumb". What does it matter if the requirements are outdated, if they're applied to everyone equally what's the big deal? These aren't gender-specific requirements we're talking about such as "must have penis".
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quince
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Post by quince on Feb 5, 2015 14:52:27 GMT -5
But, were the physical requirements really valid to begin with? Are they outdated? Or were they put in place to specifically exclude certain male people? We don't really know if the ability to complete the physical 'test' has any bearing on actually doing a fireman's job. The rallying cry of those who can't meet the requirements has always been "the requirements are dumb". What does it matter if the requirements are outdated, if they're applied to everyone equally what's the big deal? These aren't gender-specific requirements we're talking about such as "must have penis". If the requirements are not valid to the actual abilities that are needed for a job, and they result in the exclusion of any class of people disproportionately, they are discriminatory. Kind of like property ownership laws for voting? No actual mention of skin color....but....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 14:55:50 GMT -5
Sroo I can't read your article, I'm not a member
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 15:05:54 GMT -5
Sroo I can't read your article, I'm not a member It's the wall street journal but here's an excerpt: But to make a quick comment before I have to go for a bit... what the hell do people think firefighters do all day? It's one of the most physical jobs out there. It's like wondering aloud if your accountant needs to be good at math This is a case of prejudice causing a problem. Mr. Nigro assumes the problem is that women can't do the physical tasks. So rather than find out what the problem really is in attracting women he falls back on the prejudice.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 5, 2015 15:12:11 GMT -5
There have been many studies where investigators take a resume and put a man's name on it then ask people to rate it. Then they take the EXACT SAME RESUME and put a woman's name on it.
Time and again attributes that were considered attractive in men are rated as unattractive in women. The initial salary offer goes down when the resume is changed to a woman's (despite it being the exact same resume). Women's experience levels are often under-rated even if it is the same as the male's.
And again you can't argue that women "just aren't leaning in enough" because all that changes on the resume is the NAME
pwq.sagepub.com/content/early/2014/12/26/0361684314565777.full
The article I linked to is a review of several studies, if you want you can click on the individual paper titles to read more.
Unfortunately this is all personal underlying cultural/social bias. That is impossible to legislate against, you can't keep people from thinking what they think.
I think the only real way to combat that is a lot of people are going to have to die off/retire and have the younger people with different views take over.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 5, 2015 15:13:48 GMT -5
The rallying cry of those who can't meet the requirements has always been "the requirements are dumb". What does it matter if the requirements are outdated, if they're applied to everyone equally what's the big deal? These aren't gender-specific requirements we're talking about such as "must have penis". If the requirements are not valid to the actual abilities that are needed for a job, and they result in the exclusion of any class of people disproportionately, they are discriminatory. Kind of like property ownership laws for voting? No actual mention of skin color....but.... Only if you choose to be disproportionately excluded. No reason women can't reach the physical requirements unless they choose not to meet the requirements. Property ownership laws are totally different. There was discrimination which helped exclude certain groups from owning property. There's no discrimination which prevents women from being strong if they want to be. I've never met a barbell which required me to insert my penis prior to lifting the weight...yes I may do it because I find it fun, but it wasn't required to operate the weights. If women were prevented from joining any gym, it might be comparable. I think there's more to debate where the requirements are clearly NOTHING to do with the job...but we're talking about firefighters needing to be able to carry individuals. Whether the current requirement (let's say it's 200 lbs) is outdated or not shouldn't ALL that relevant. Maybe the current requirement should be 185 lbs...it's not an outrageous requirement, it just may be outdated.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 15:15:16 GMT -5
TMI
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quince
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Post by quince on Feb 5, 2015 15:20:08 GMT -5
There is an upper limit to female ability to lift weights, based on body type and not taking testosterone...Women CAN be much stronger and be able to lift a certain amount, yes. Random selection group of men and random selection group of women, put on weight lifting, no hormone supplements...men will have a higher upper limit of weight able to be lifted. There really, truly ARE physiological differences between men and women. Not massive, insurmountable in all circumstances differences, but differences. Testosterone is a little helpful when it comes to building strength/muscle mass.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 5, 2015 17:56:56 GMT -5
How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb? Twelve. One to screw it in. One to excoriate men for creating the need for illumination. One to blame men for inventing such a faulty means of illumination. One to suggest the whole "screwing" bit to be too "rape-like". One to deconstruct the lightbulb itself as being phallic. One to blame men for not changing the bulb. One to blame men for trying to change the bulb instead of letting a woman do it. One to blame men for creating a society that discourages women from changing light bulbs. One to blame men for creating a society where women change too many light bulbs. One to advocate that lightbulb changers should have wage parity with electricians. One to alert the media that women are now "out-lightbulbing" men. One to just sit there taking pictures for her blog for photo-evidence that men are unnecessary.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2015 9:10:26 GMT -5
How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb? Twelve. One to screw it in. One to excoriate men for creating the need for illumination. One to blame men for inventing such a faulty means of illumination. One to suggest the whole "screwing" bit to be too "rape-like". One to deconstruct the lightbulb itself as being phallic. One to blame men for not changing the bulb. One to blame men for trying to change the bulb instead of letting a woman do it. One to blame men for creating a society that discourages women from changing light bulbs. One to blame men for creating a society where women change too many light bulbs. One to advocate that lightbulb changers should have wage parity with electricians. One to alert the media that women are now "out-lightbulbing" men. One to just sit there taking pictures for her blog for photo-evidence that men are unnecessary. Seriously? You pull this shit a lot when people are on a thread talking about something they consider a serious topic. FFS cut it out. The rest of us have been managing to talk about this in a respectful way with each other.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 6, 2015 10:21:40 GMT -5
How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb? Twelve. One to screw it in. One to excoriate men for creating the need for illumination. One to blame men for inventing such a faulty means of illumination. One to suggest the whole "screwing" bit to be too "rape-like". One to deconstruct the lightbulb itself as being phallic. One to blame men for not changing the bulb. One to blame men for trying to change the bulb instead of letting a woman do it. One to blame men for creating a society that discourages women from changing light bulbs. One to blame men for creating a society where women change too many light bulbs. One to advocate that lightbulb changers should have wage parity with electricians. One to alert the media that women are now "out-lightbulbing" men. One to just sit there taking pictures for her blog for photo-evidence that men are unnecessary. Seriously? You pull this shit a lot when people are on a thread talking about something they consider a serious topic. FFS cut it out. The rest of us have been managing to talk about this in a respectful way with each other. It is a joke, madam. A bit of levity in the midst of a hostile exchange to restore a sense of perspective. Billis prefers posting music videos. b2r and Weltz are fond of posting videos of comedic diatribes by Carlin, Stewart, Colbert, and others. Archie pokes fun at just about everything. Entire threads have been devoted to "buttercream frosting", which was a meme dozens of posters were joking about in the Oregon Bakery thread. I realize feminism is your sacred cow, but accept that the humour is relevant to the topic at hand, frivolous one-shot posts are part of the culture of our board, and that many posters do indeed find them funny.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Feb 6, 2015 10:51:33 GMT -5
Only if you choose to be disproportionately excluded. No reason women can't reach the physical requirements unless they choose not to meet the requirements. Property ownership laws are totally different. There was discrimination which helped exclude certain groups from owning property. There's no discrimination which prevents women from being strong if they want to be. I've never met a barbell which required me to insert my penis prior to lifting the weight...yes I may do it because I find it fun, but it wasn't required to operate the weights. If women were prevented from joining any gym, it might be comparable. I think there's more to debate where the requirements are clearly NOTHING to do with the job...but we're talking about firefighters needing to be able to carry individuals. Whether the current requirement (let's say it's 200 lbs) is outdated or not shouldn't ALL that relevant. Maybe the current requirement should be 185 lbs...it's not an outrageous requirement, it just may be outdated. strictly speaking... Americans are getting fatter. The required weight should probably be going up! Again this requirement is not only to drag other firefighters but also unconscious/incapacitated civilians. Yes they have fancy cots that have automatic hydraulics, but they still have to get the person on the cot. There are also a lot of instances where they can't get a cot or stair chair to the patient, so they need to physically carry the person safely to the cot or chair (often in tight quarters so it limits the amount of people able to help) I think if they changed the test to accommodate for the fact that 74% of all men in the US are overweight or obese and 64% of all women in the US are overweight or obese (according to the NIH) they would struggle even more to find anyone who is qualified (men or women). I don't think the physical tests for firefighters, police offers, etc., should be changed. If there is a baseline amount of strength and physical endurance to complete the job then that is what should be required. Most of the time those baselines aren't out of reach for women.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 6, 2015 11:42:20 GMT -5
Seriously? You pull this shit a lot when people are on a thread talking about something they consider a serious topic. FFS cut it out. The rest of us have been managing to talk about this in a respectful way with each other. It is a joke, madam. A bit of levity in the midst of a hostile exchange to restore a sense of perspective. Billis prefers posting music videos. b2r and Weltz are fond of posting videos of comedic diatribes by Carlin, Stewart, Colbert, and others. Archie pokes fun at just about everything. Entire threads have been devoted to "buttercream frosting", which was a meme dozens of posters were joking about in the Oregon Bakery thread. I realize feminism is your sacred cow, but accept that the humour is relevant to the topic at hand, frivolous one-shot posts are part of the culture of our board, and that many posters do indeed find them funny. I am? I think I did that once. I don't even get the Colbert show up here, and I've never posted anything by Carlin. The is the second time you've accused me of doing something I don't do. You're slipping.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 6, 2015 12:09:49 GMT -5
How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb? One Twelve.
One to screw it in. One to excoriate men for creating the need for illumination. One to blame men for inventing such a faulty means of illumination. One to suggest the whole "screwing" bit to be too "rape-like". Makes me wonder what kind of sex goes on in the Virgil household ... how does that threading, twisting motion work in RL? One to deconstruct the lightbulb itself as being phallic. WTE? The bulb looks more like a Boob. One to blame men for not changing the bulb. One to blame men for trying to change the bulb instead of letting a woman do it. One to blame men for creating a society that discourages women from changing light bulbs. One to blame men for creating a society where women change too many light bulbs. One to advocate that lightbulb changers should have wage parity with electricians. One to alert the media that women are now "out-lightbulbing" men. One to just sit there taking pictures for her blog for photo-evidence that men are unnecessary.
I thought Virgil used to be good at math.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 6, 2015 12:16:44 GMT -5
Virgil, on this it fails miserably. Basically it assumes all sorts of shit is true about feminists which is like me trying to put levity in a race relations thread by posting all known biases and beliefs about blacks and welfare and then pretend its humour and trying to restore levity. BS.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2015 12:16:49 GMT -5
Virgil Showlion it was not a hostile exchange. Make jokes on EE or in the middle of your own discussions. You have disrupted an exchange that I was really enjoying. Again.
And many don't. That is why posters insisted on a YM off topic instead of going to EE.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 6, 2015 13:40:40 GMT -5
FWIW - From the OP of the OP - I thought Virgil's post was fine and also love that he got called out on it since he does that to me at times.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2015 14:05:22 GMT -5
Actually what I was trying to convey is that the example you brought up wasn't an example of women being held to a different standard as there are both men and women employed that don't meet the standard so it is not an example of women getting special treatment. In my view we were discussing that in terms of defining feminism.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Feb 6, 2015 18:59:24 GMT -5
"Feminism:
Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies which share a common stated aim: to define, establish, and defend equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist generally self-defines as advocating for or supporting the rights and equality of women."
I support the right and equality of women. I don't support thinking equality for women means that men can't have a voice whether it be serious or joking when it's being discussed by women. Treating a man or any other person as lesser than because of a joke because THEY didn't like it is not being a feminist. Telling people what they should or shouldn't say isn't being a feminist.
The histrionics (real - not the silly joking kind we can portray here for a laugh) from women who feel everything is an "attack" is something entirely different than feminism or what a feminist is. Acting like everything is an attack or getting overly emotional about every little thing somebody says keeps women and their cause from being taken seriously.
FYI: Feminists can laugh too at both a serious topic and themselves while discussing it and they can include men doing the same.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2015 19:37:35 GMT -5
Feminists can laugh at themselves, but they don't have to because Virgil feels like disrupting things. You want to tell me that I have to accommodate Virgil's BS and I'm saying I don't. I'd say you are doing your best to control what is said, while I am just trying to participate in a thoughtful discussion of the topic. BTW I really don't appreciate your histrionics on this topic.
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