billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 4, 2015 12:16:14 GMT -5
Not sure how interested I am in digging through this can of worms but the can was opened elsewhere and I thought it was not appropriate to continue the conversation there. So. ... Probably doesn't belong on this thread, but it's too good NOT to share:
Probably doesn't belong on this thread, but it's too good NOT to share: ...
Hear you on that. It will just elicited responses which don't belong here like: Also don't allow women who hate men to define feminism. Hear you on that. It will just elicited responses which don't belong here like: Also don't allow women who hate men to define feminism. I always tend to think of the hate-mongers who have radio shows. Not that I'm naming names.
IMHO, the best definition of feminist I've seen is: advocating social, political, legal and economic rights for women equal to those of men. I get tired of some in the media who try to twist the definition into something completely different.
The is in the details of what that definition looks like in day to day life, IM(not so)HO.
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quince
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Post by quince on Feb 4, 2015 13:09:29 GMT -5
I prefer the term "gender egalitarian" for those things that feminists have focused on in the past, because it shifts the focus from "Women should be treated equally," to "Everyone should be treated equally".
I do think that women have had a poorer deal, and still deal with more stumbling blocks, but I've seen feminists be callous when a woman does something to a man, because we see so many examples of violence and other abuse against women...they have no sympathy for the opposite sex.
Bad things happening to people is bad every time it happens to people, not less bad in a specific instance because it happens to a specific group less often than others. Fuck that.
So I can't get behind the idea of equality with a focus on the issues facing only one gender.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 4, 2015 13:25:42 GMT -5
... I do think that women have had a poorer deal, and still deal with more stumbling blocks, ... I would agree that in many different areas this is true. An area that I think was equally a poor deal for both genders was rigidity of roles. I think it has changed significantly (but not there yet) for females. There is still a great deal of work for males. I also think that there is a great deal of growth potential in working with males to deal better with their emotional health.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Feb 4, 2015 13:51:45 GMT -5
I prefer the term "gender egalitarian" for those things that feminists have focused on in the past, because it shifts the focus from "Women should be treated equally," to "Everyone should be treated equally". This. I think the big push to teach girls that they can do anything is going to affect young men at some point. Schools are now set up to favor girls over boys. (Less physical activity, increased demands in having children sit still, boys can not longer express themselves if it's considered "too violent.") I really do hope that my generation kinda fixes things so that when my kids grow up, they will be free to choose the best ways to live their life without assumptions being made.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 4, 2015 14:27:33 GMT -5
... Schools are now set up to favor girls over boys. (Less physical activity, increased demands in having children sit still, boys can not longer express themselves if it's considered "too violent.") ... I have been working to document some thoughts and have failed to find much data (supporting or countering) a couple of things I believe to be true. So I am going to claim some things without being able to prove them. Schools have never been "boy friendly". Drop out rates by gender back in 1960 were about equal (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0779196.html). I couldn't find any rates for expulsions by gender but I would argue that more girls left school for "social" reasons than the number of boys who did not graduate because they were asked to leave.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Feb 4, 2015 14:31:28 GMT -5
It's always interesting to see the results of one group who co-opts a term or label, and then changes it into basically a derogatory moniker. I'm always curious though if it's done by those in opposition or if it's the wingnuts who identify as the group themselves that overshadow the 'mainstream' of the particular group who does it. -This was worded awkwardly. But in the case of the term feminist. Is it the radical 'feminists' who co-opted the term and changed the meaning or is it those who call out the radicals who did? The same question could be asked of 'Tea Party', animal welfare, ecology groups etc. What is a "radical feminist" and what does she want that is different than a plain old feminist?
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Feb 4, 2015 14:38:42 GMT -5
The definition of feminism is when women get praised for their strengths instead of being called a bitch. Although I joke about putting DH in a head lock, etc. it's just joking but I've seen that here from certain posters. They scream and shout about how poorly women are treated by men and then turn around and bash men or undermine them. I find extreme hypocrisy entertaining though which is why I like to come here.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 14:47:49 GMT -5
I disagree with allowing men to coopt the agenda like that as right now women still face barriers based on misogyny that men do not face. I am allowed to talk about challenges and struggles that women face and just focus on that sometimes. There are many places in the world that I very blatantly have no rights because I am a woman. Many places that it is illegal to deny me rights, it is still done informally and not challenged. I get called a radical feminist often and I know that it is an attempt to shut me up and get me to accept the status quo.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 4, 2015 15:03:47 GMT -5
i am not a feminist. I believe every person should have the same opportunities regardless of sex, race, etc. I cringed when I hear that standards are lowered because women can't meet them (physical). Ladies, I hate to break it to you but we are physiologically different than men. We just are. I have seen crazy females take every god damn thing personally (everything is a war on women!) so I have no desire to lump myself in with them
I cringe when a white persons score is higher but a minority gets preference. Or a male scores higher and preference is given to a female. By doing that, we are being told white males are superio or and the only way for women/minorities to succeed is to give us an edge. No thank you
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 4, 2015 15:24:53 GMT -5
... Schools are now set up to favor girls over boys. (Less physical activity, increased demands in having children sit still, boys can not longer express themselves if it's considered "too violent.") ... I have been working to document some thoughts and have failed to find much data (supporting or countering) a couple of things I believe to be true. So I am going to claim some things without being able to prove them. Schools have never been "boy friendly". Drop out rates by gender back in 1960 were about equal (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0779196.html). I couldn't find any rates for expulsions by gender but I would argue that more girls left school for "social" reasons than the number of boys who did not graduate because they were asked to leave. Yeah, this... I don't think schools have ever been in the vein of a stereotypical 'boy friendly' institution. Think of the 'military format'. Students were required to obey rules, to not question authority, and to do as told. The 'stereotypical boy' can't sit still - even when told to do so, uses threats of violence to 'solve problems' or to get cooperation from others, and constantly attempts to do 'what they want to do' versus what they are told to do. I have no idea where when schools let boys run wild... I strongly suspect what happened in the 'olden days' was that the 'problem boys' who couldn't sit still, obey the rules, not question authority were the ones who got ejected from school at an early age and went on to do manual labor or transient work or whatever.... Thus by the time the kids got to a level of 'higher learning' all the bad seeds were weeded out. The jobs in the modern world require cooperation and education and constant change. It's highly unlikely that you'll start out as a ditch digger at 18 and finish up a ditch digger at 55 - assuming no physical impairment before 55. Kinda like it's not expected that someone starting out as a desk job clerk will perform that job for 30 plus years. Back in the olden days - whatever you were when you started out - is what you expected to finish at.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 4, 2015 15:30:15 GMT -5
What standards are you talking about? You do realize that most physical jobs can be broken down into 'smaller' loads right or that adjustments in work gear or workstation can be made?
Cause those physical standards you are talking about also work against men - a 5 foot 4 inch guy slim built guy may not be able to do the same physical work that a 5foot 11 inch medium build guy is gonna be able to do... Heck, the protective gear may be too big for the smaller guy... or he may not have the same reach as a bigger guy.
And dont' get me started on the work adjustments made for the 150 - 200 pound OVERWEIGHT guys....
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 4, 2015 15:33:31 GMT -5
Does this really happen in the work place? I can see it happening at schools - education and schools are in some bizarro universe all their own... but in the work place?
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 4, 2015 15:35:34 GMT -5
I disagree with allowing men to coopt the agenda like that as right now women still face barriers based on misogyny that men do not face. I am allowed to talk about challenges and struggles that women face and just focus on that sometimes. There are many places in the world that I very blatantly have no rights because I am a woman. Many places that it is illegal to deny me rights, it is still done informally and not challenged. I get called a radical feminist often and I know that it is an attempt to shut me up and get me to accept the status quo. Yeah, this.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Feb 4, 2015 15:38:48 GMT -5
Does this really happen in the work place? I can see it happening at schools - education and schools are in some bizarro universe all their own... but in the work place? it's a horribly misguided attempt to even the playing field. But nowadays it's mostly a socioeconomic issue, not a racial one. I've never once experienced this in the workplace. I've gotten where I am because I earned it. I may have gotten into college partly due to my race but I STAYED there because I put the work in.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 4, 2015 15:41:46 GMT -5
Schools were designed to be a sorting machine. Those unable to sit at a desk were the first to drop out and go work in the fields. Progressing from elementary school model to high schools required more self control and motivation to succeed, Couldn't hack it, off you go to work on the assembly line where your work is very controlled. High school graduation got you into lower management. The ability/willingness to work "off the clock" - college 15/20 hours of class, out of class reading and essays proved you a candidate for upper management.
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quince
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Post by quince on Feb 4, 2015 15:48:15 GMT -5
I disagree with allowing men to coopt the agenda like that as right now women still face barriers based on misogyny that men do not face. I am allowed to talk about challenges and struggles that women face and just focus on that sometimes. There are many places in the world that I very blatantly have no rights because I am a woman. Many places that it is illegal to deny me rights, it is still done informally and not challenged. I get called a radical feminist often and I know that it is an attempt to shut me up and get me to accept the status quo. It's fine to identify a feminist and focus on the challenges that face women. It's not OK to use a label to dismiss someone. I don't think it's fine to shout down men who are focusing on some problems that face them either: it's also OK to be a MRA if you're not the type of MRA who uses it as a platform for their misogyny...and I wouldn't call myself a MRA either, because too many people who do are misogynists. They focus on how positive changes for women have undermined their privilege rather than how some things need to change FOR THEM. In case it needs being said, fuck that also, just as hard, and possibly with something spikier. I absolutely get people being feminists or MRAs. I just can't, because a lot of times in either group I see people treating the other gender as the enemy, outsider, needing to be shit on. Not everyone... and I want to say not most, but enough. I don't think calling myself gender egalitarian is co-opting "the agenda", because I don't think there's just one agenda. I think even under the umbrella of feminism, there's some complexity where race and gender intersect...where physiology and gender intersect too, for that matter.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Feb 4, 2015 16:00:39 GMT -5
i am not a feminist. I believe every person should have the same opportunities regardless of sex, race, etc. I cringed when I hear that standards are lowered because women can't meet them (physical). Ladies, I hate to break it to you but we are physiologically different than men. We just are. I have seen crazy females take every god damn thing personally (everything is a war on women!) so I have no desire to lump myself in with them I cringe when a white persons score is higher but a minority gets preference. Or a male scores higher and preference is given to a female. By doing that, we are being told white males are superio or and the only way for women/minorities to succeed is to give us an edge. No thank you What are you involved in that is scoring people?
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Feb 4, 2015 16:01:37 GMT -5
Most of them can, but not all. However if the adjustments can be made, then the physical requirement of the job doesn't have to be set at the higher level. However, more often than not you see women being hired to do jobs that they physically cannot perform, just because they are women. The job requirements don't change, adjustments aren't made, they just don't do the same work as the men. I find that absolutely wrong, and it infuriates me to see. The standards shouldn't be relaxed for them either. MrSroo and I have had this discussion many times. There are women at his dept that I have no problem with their ability to drag him out of harms way if it comes down to it. There are others that would not have the physical strength to do the same. There are also men at his department that I know wouldn't be able to drag him. I'm opposed to anyone, man or woman, who can't physically do the job being allowed to hold the position. What? That sounds pretty blatantly wrong.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 4, 2015 16:06:38 GMT -5
Does this really happen in the work place? I can see it happening at schools - education and schools are in some bizarro universe all their own... but in the work place? Yes. There have been many well-publicized reverse discrimination suits over the last few years. One coming to mind is the firefighters (I forget which state).
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 4, 2015 16:13:03 GMT -5
i am not a feminist. I believe every person should have the same opportunities regardless of sex, race, etc. I cringed when I hear that standards are lowered because women can't meet them (physical). Ladies, I hate to break it to you but we are physiologically different than men. We just are. I have seen crazy females take every god damn thing personally (everything is a war on women!) so I have no desire to lump myself in with them I cringe when a white persons score is higher but a minority gets preference. Or a male scores higher and preference is given to a female. By doing that, we are being told white males are superio or and the only way for women/minorities to succeed is to give us an edge. No thank you What are you involved in that is scoring people? I wasn't talking about me specifically. I was referring to the military relaxing standards for women but holding men to higher standards. You are either qualified or you are not.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 4, 2015 16:17:03 GMT -5
It is legitimate to question whether "the score" is criteria that should be used to make the final decision.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 4, 2015 16:31:57 GMT -5
I live in a big Urban area - with 6 million other people - and I don't think I've ever seen a woman in a job she couldn't physically perform (since she was doing her job without any direct help I assume she was able to do it). I've seen women on construction sites, in the 'electric rooms' doing electrician things in office buildings, driving trucks, fork lifts, front loaders, I've even seen a woman on a 'carpenter crew' in an office building. She wasn't following the guys 'cleaning up" nor did she have a guy following her (pickign up her slack) they were all moving thru the offices doing their jobs.
OK, I've never seen a woman on the elevator repair crew or the escalator crew - but don't think there's anything there a woman couldn't do...
Maybe I'm just not privvy to the places wherewomen are being given a 'free ride' while being said to be doing the stuff that the men are doing. What places should I be looking?
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Feb 4, 2015 18:08:54 GMT -5
In the classic sense, I would brand myself a feminist. I've got both a son and a daughter. I want them both to have the same opportunities to attend college, I want them to enjoy the same legal rights, and, if they were both going to work at the same company in identical positions, know that they would receive the same pay.
It really made me mad when Texas recently tried to railroad through a law that would've allowed companies there to pay women less than men working at the same position. Talk about moving back into the dark ages!
I'm old enough to remember when Title 9 went through, which I thought was GREAT at the time, since I was a student athlete.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 4, 2015 18:13:15 GMT -5
... My example. MrSroo is a firefighter. There are women at his dept who could not drag his ass out of a burning building . There are women who can't lift patients, etc. There are also men in his dept who can't do it. ... So is it job requirement that firefighters be able to drag your husbands ass out of a burning building?
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Feb 4, 2015 19:02:42 GMT -5
What are you involved in that is scoring people? I used to work in a program that helped low income kids. In one year, I went from being in the racial majority to the racial minority. Make no mistake my director was very focused on getting a diverse group of teachers. And skin color was, in fact, more important than making sure the kids were well taught. I know that some parents complained about me because I would not treat their kids any differently that I treat my own children. I expected the kids to show up on time, to behave, to be prepared, and be ready to work. I expected them to listen to me and follow my directions. In short, I would never "take it easy" with my own kids, because I think these sorts of skills are needed to do well and get ahead in life. The teacher that is now teaching my kids would leave the kids in a room with no adult supervision, didn't care if the kids strolled in a half hour or 45 minutes late for class, and wouldn't teach the same curriculum that we all were supposed to be teaching. In fact, on the pedagogy front, this teacher would teach in ways our director DIDN'T like at all. She also works with males/females of all different ethnicity, but clearly only favored the girls that were her ethnicity. And the low income kids that are on the path to really succeeding to the point of making viable careers in music, well, those kids get ignored all together. She's also used the group to make political statements about our lawmakers on occasion, which as a non-profit, is generally a no-no. The director of the program is very aware of these things. But, it's all swept under the rug because this teacher is a minority. I do have to say, after my experience, I'm far less idealistic than I used to be.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Feb 4, 2015 19:42:24 GMT -5
The definition of feminism is when women get praised for their strengths instead of being called a bitch. Although I joke about putting DH in a head lock, etc. it's just joking but I've seen that here from certain posters. They scream and shout about how poorly women are treated by men and then turn around and bash men or undermine them. I find extreme hypocrisy entertaining though which is why I like to come here. Exactly! There are one or two females here who come across as angry chest-thumpers, trying too aggressively to convince everyone how much of a feminist they are by constantly talking about it - usually also displaying anger or disdain toward the male members here in their posts - or men in general.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 20:09:21 GMT -5
I would like to live in a perfect world where the most qualified person always got the job, the best worker got the highest pay, no one ever got raped, no one ever got divorced but if by chance they did both parents took financial, physical and emotional responsibility for their children etc etc etc But I live in a world where these things are still skewed against women. For this reason I am unashamedly a feminist. And I am not going to be diverted from the injustices perpetrated on thousands, if not millions of women for the problems of tens or hundreds of men. It is ridiculous that every time an injustice against women is mentioned someone jumps up and says "but men have this problem!" Guess where the discussion goes to from there. Labeling me a "Radical Feminist" to ridicule my stand on these things just reinforces my resolve to keep speaking out against misogyny in any form I find it.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 4, 2015 20:39:04 GMT -5
What standards are you talking about? You do realize that most physical jobs can be broken down into 'smaller' loads right or that adjustments in work gear or workstation can be made? Cause those physical standards you are talking about also work against men - a 5 foot 4 inch guy slim built guy may not be able to do the same physical work that a 5foot 11 inch medium build guy is gonna be able to do... Heck, the protective gear may be too big for the smaller guy... or he may not have the same reach as a bigger guy. And dont' get me started on the work adjustments made for the 150 - 200 pound OVERWEIGHT guys.... I'm 5'8"..if my house is on fire and I'm caught in the second floor and unable to walk, I don't aome 100lb women coming for get me...a woman who met different standards than men are held to. That's all I'm saying. If we all want equality than we all need to be held to the exact same standard.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 4, 2015 20:41:06 GMT -5
... My example. MrSroo is a firefighter. There are women at his dept who could not drag his ass out of a burning building . There are women who can't lift patients, etc. There are also men in his dept who can't do it. ... So is it job requirement that firefighters be able to drag your husbands ass out of a burning building? You don't think firefighters should have to drag/carry people out of burning buildings?
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Feb 4, 2015 20:45:19 GMT -5
And yes, I like a man to be a man. I love it when a man holds doors open for me, etc. Just because I want equality, doesn't mean I want to stop being a woman.
But, especially in the political area, it appears that at the same time things appear to be improving for women (better ways of collecting child support, for example), someone is trying to take away a right that has already been fought over & won. A lot of time is wasted in politics refighting old battles.
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