Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 4, 2015 20:55:46 GMT -5
And yes, I like a man to be a man. I love it when a man holds doors open for me, etc. Just because I want equality, doesn't mean I want to stop being a woman.
But, especially in the political area, it appears that at the same time things appear to be improving for women (better ways of collecting child support, for example), someone is trying to take away a right that has already been fought over & won. A lot of time is wasted in politics refighting old battles. Exactly. I want equality, too. I just don't want standards lowered in the name of equality
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 4, 2015 20:56:11 GMT -5
I'm sure there is an "official" definition out there some where. I guess I always considered it basically "advocating for the equality of women." Though in some cases, like any idea, it can be taken to extremes. And also, like any idea, there are different interpretations of what it means and how to achieve necessary goals.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 20:59:52 GMT -5
Being a Firefighter is a very unique job when it comes to physical demands. Yet that is the one we end up talking about here. We could be talking about the fact that female dominated professions are valued lower than male dominated professions. Or the fact that women in the same jobs are typically paid less than men in the same jobs, often just down the hall from them. There are so many unambiguous situations that we could talk about before getting into the more intricate scenarios. But someone always shows up with the outlier to somehow claim that women are not capable of doing the jobs men do and shouldn't be treated equally.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 4, 2015 21:02:10 GMT -5
So is it job requirement that firefighters be able to drag your husbands ass out of a burning building? You don't think firefighters should have to drag/carry people out of burning buildings? A job requirement that firefighters shall be able drag/carry people seems a little vague.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 4, 2015 21:26:34 GMT -5
So is it job requirement that firefighters be able to drag your husbands ass out of a burning building? You don't think firefighters should have to drag/carry people out of burning buildings? She indicated that there were firefighters unable to do a specific thing. She indicated that she wanted them to be able to do that specific thing. The question I asked was has the employer established that specific thing to be a job requirement. If they haven't, that would be her complaint and the avenue she should pursue to get what she wanted.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 4, 2015 21:28:56 GMT -5
What standards are you talking about? You do realize that most physical jobs can be broken down into 'smaller' loads right or that adjustments in work gear or workstation can be made? Cause those physical standards you are talking about also work against men - a 5 foot 4 inch guy slim built guy may not be able to do the same physical work that a 5foot 11 inch medium build guy is gonna be able to do... Heck, the protective gear may be too big for the smaller guy... or he may not have the same reach as a bigger guy. And dont' get me started on the work adjustments made for the 150 - 200 pound OVERWEIGHT guys.... I'm 5'8"..if my house is on fire and I'm caught in the second floor and unable to walk, I don't aome 100lb women coming for get me...a woman who met different standards than men are held to. That's all I'm saying. If we all want equality than we all need to be held to the exact same standard. I hate to tell you this - but a fireman in 60 pounds of gear probably isn't gonna carry a 100 pounds (or more likely more) of dead weight anywhere. I strongly suspect a fireman without the 60 pounds of gear would be carrying you anywhere... If you can't walk out on your own, it's gonna be a team effort. My brother use to joke that if they had to pull anyone out of a building alone - they'd just grab a leg and drag - making sure the 'victims' head bounced off every stair they had to go down. At least I HOPE he was joking
I strongly suspect that a 100 pound woman isn't gonna be passing the physical test to be a fireman. Just like a 120 pound guy would probably have trouble. I strongly suspect they don't have 'special lightweight' gear for the women firefighters. I also suspect they don't use the special 'light weight hoses' when women are on the crew.
I'm totally OK with occupations requiring some special physical abilities. I'm totally ok with the majority of women NOT being able to pass the physical requirements for being a fireman. But a woman who can pass the test and wants to and CAN do the job shouldn't be told "sorry, this is man's work".
I think that by the time people get college they've made peace with their body - if they wanted to be X but don't have the body type for it they adjust their expectations. A runner who won't ever be fast enough or a singer who won't ever had the 'voice' or the range for example. or the 200 pound guy who wants to be a jockey. I don't see any problem with this. It's when someone meets the criteria but is told they cannot do the job because they've got the wrong plumbing - that's the issue.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Feb 4, 2015 21:29:23 GMT -5
Female police officers are trained/treated/promoted equally to their male counterparts (at least where I live).
Heck, our Police Chief here (in a city well over 1 million) a decade ago was female (Served as Chief of Police for a 5-year term). She also is a Lawyer.
We have female Paramedics on our EMS staff AND Firefighters, as well as female Doctors, Surgeons & Specialists, Dentists, Optometrists, Lawyers, Accountants, Company Presidents, CEO's, Bank Managers, and the list goes on.
All making equal or more pay than their male counterparts, depending on experience, skill, etc.
Yes, there are women who are held-back or underpaid in some countries - but you don't live there. It's their country, their culture, their way-of-life. It's not "our" job to change them or their way of life.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 4, 2015 21:43:07 GMT -5
Being a Firefighter is a very unique job when it comes to physical demands. Yet that is the one we end up talking about here. We could be talking about the fact that female dominated professions are valued lower than male dominated professions. Or the fact that women in the same jobs are typically paid less than men in the same jobs, often just down the hall from them. There are so many unambiguous situations that we could talk about before getting into the more intricate scenarios. But someone always shows up with the outlier to somehow claim that women are not capable of doing the jobs men do and shouldn't be treated equally. I agree with this.
About a year ago - we had a temp Admin Assistant who was male. It threw a lot of people for a loop - cause Admins have always been women. I know the guys in my group were like "what the heck is up with that!" Some one made the unfortunate comment about him not being able to get a 'real job'. I'm telling you we're still in the dark ages.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 4, 2015 22:00:47 GMT -5
I'm 5'8"..if my house is on fire and I'm caught in the second floor and unable to walk, I don't aome 100lb women coming for get me...a woman who met different standards than men are held to. That's all I'm saying. If we all want equality than we all need to be held to the exact same standard. I hate to tell you this - but a fireman in 60 pounds of gear probably isn't gonna carry a 100 pounds (or more likely more) of dead weight anywhere. I strongly suspect a fireman without the 60 pounds of gear would be carrying you anywhere... If you can't walk out on your own, it's gonna be a team effort. My brother use to joke that if they had to pull anyone out of a building alone - they'd just grab a leg and drag - making sure the 'victims' head bounced off every stair they had to go down. At least I HOPE he was joking
I strongly suspect that a 100 pound woman isn't gonna be passing the physical test to be a fireman. Just like a 120 pound guy would probably have trouble. I strongly suspect they don't have 'special lightweight' gear for the women firefighters. I also suspect they don't use the special 'light weight hoses' when women are on the crew.
I'm totally OK with occupations requiring some special physical abilities. I'm totally ok with the majority of women NOT being able to pass the physical requirements for being a fireman. But a woman who can pass the test and wants to and CAN do the job shouldn't be told "sorry, this is man's work".
I think that by the time people get college they've made peace with their body - if they wanted to be X but don't have the body type for it they adjust their expectations. A runner who won't ever be fast enough or a singer who won't ever had the 'voice' or the range for example. or the 200 pound guy who wants to be a jockey. I don't see any problem with this. It's when someone meets the criteria but is told they cannot do the job because they've got the wrong plumbing - that's the issue.
First off...don't freak me out about firemen!lol I am 100% a woman being a fire fighter, in the military, etc. if she is held to the same standards. I get oissed when standards are lowered for woman.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 4, 2015 22:03:47 GMT -5
Being a Firefighter is a very unique job when it comes to physical demands. Yet that is the one we end up talking about here. We could be talking about the fact that female dominated professions are valued lower than male dominated professions. Or the fact that women in the same jobs are typically paid less than men in the same jobs, often just down the hall from them. There are so many unambiguous situations that we could talk about before getting into the more intricate scenarios. But someone always shows up with the outlier to somehow claim that women are not capable of doing the jobs men do and shouldn't be treated equally. When it comes to brains i am. 100% for equality because women are are smart as men. But why do we have to push it and lower standards for physically demanding jobs just so women can qualify? Why can t we admit that there are physical differences?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 22:21:30 GMT -5
In this day and age very, very few jobs have physical requirements that can't be compensated for with equipment. BTW there are larger discrepancies between men's physicality than there are between men and women. Not all women are 5'2 and not all men are 6'4. It's not about denying differences between men and women. It's about making sure you are talking about real differences and not ideas that are accepted as facts but aren't. It is also about valuing feminine strengths as much as masculine strengths.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 4, 2015 22:33:06 GMT -5
So is it job requirement that firefighters be able to drag your husbands ass out of a burning building? Umm..yes Then the firefighters who can not meet that requirement need to lose their job.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 22:42:47 GMT -5
So by your account some men and women can drag folks out, and some men and women can't. I don't see how this fits in a discussion of the merits of feminism.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 4, 2015 23:57:33 GMT -5
I prefer the term "gender egalitarian" for those things that feminists have focused on in the past, because it shifts the focus from "Women should be treated equally," to "Everyone should be treated equally". This. I think the big push to teach girls that they can do anything is going to affect young men at some point. Schools are now set up to favor girls over boys. (Less physical activity, increased demands in having children sit still, boys can not longer express themselves if it's considered "too violent.") I really do hope that my generation kinda fixes things so that when my kids grow up, they will be free to choose the best ways to live their life without assumptions being made. I'm trying to understand what you mean by this. Should young girls be encouraged to be stewardesses but not pilots? Nurses but not doctors? Secretaries but not engineers? Court stenographers but not lawyers? If I had a daughter, I'd encourage her to shoot for the moon.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Feb 5, 2015 0:16:26 GMT -5
Are you saying that only boys are participating in physical activity and girls are more academic then them?
There's a high school near me, and the girls are outside during PE to play soccer, baseball and even football, equally as much as the boys' teams are. Indoors, they're playing basketball & volley-ball.
The boys are also taking the same academic courses in the same classrooms as the girls (Mathematics, Albegra, Science, etc).
BOTH genders have equal opportunity of succeeding in either physical or academic pursuits.
Academia will get them much farther in life though.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 5, 2015 1:08:58 GMT -5
This. I think the big push to teach girls that they can do anything is going to affect young men at some point. Schools are now set up to favor girls over boys. (Less physical activity, increased demands in having children sit still, boys can not longer express themselves if it's considered "too violent.") I really do hope that my generation kinda fixes things so that when my kids grow up, they will be free to choose the best ways to live their life without assumptions being made. I'm trying to understand what you mean by this. Should young girls be encouraged to be stewardesses but not pilots? Nurses but not doctors? Secretaries but not engineers? Court stenographers but not lawyers? If I had a daughter, I'd encourage her to shoot for the moon.
As highly capable females continue to rightly fill more and more top positions,the slightly less capable males who would have filled the positions will fill lower slots. This will ripple throughout the entire job structure. Males will be filling more of those less well paying positions. That is how males will be affected. If males are taught that they should be able to support themselves,spouse, and children while females are taught that they should be able to support themselves and children if a male fails to support them, in a job structure in which females fill approximately half the top wage earning positions, I see some problems. I don't think the solution is to prevent females from fulfilling their potential. The solution is to teach all that either gender may be the primary bread winner.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 5, 2015 5:41:47 GMT -5
To me, "feminism" is an umbrella term compassing a mixed bag of ideologies that developed in the latter half of the 20th century as a result of a waning standard of social propriety in both sexes.
My two main grievances with canonical feminism are i) that self-identifying feminists are often mirror reflections of the men whose attitudes they want to change, occasionally because they fail to realize it, but more often because they consider their hypocrisy to be "fighting fire with fire"; and ii) feminist writings make it patently clear that the authors don't care whether their ideals (dissolution of gender roles, state-mandated "equality", etc.) are beneficial, sustainable, or conducive to a peaceable relationship between the sexes. The means become an end unto themselves, superseding the greater goal of creating a happier and more prosperous society for both sexes.
Insofar as "feminism" refers to the belief that women should be treated with courtesy and respect, not sexually objectified, and equally compensated for completing equal work with equal quality subject to equal risk and equal liability, I have no problem with it. My only caveat here is that the vast majority of women I know who hold this belief don't identify as feminists. The term has been coopted over the years to refer to more militant varieties feminism. I highly doubt that's ever going to change.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 9:31:36 GMT -5
You don't think firefighters should have to drag/carry people out of burning buildings? She indicated that there were firefighters unable to do a specific thing. She indicated that she wanted them to be able to do that specific thing. The question I asked was has the employer established that specific thing to be a job requirement. If they haven't, that would be her complaint and the avenue she should pursue to get what she wanted. but she also said there were women AND men who couldn't do it so I don't see how the standards were lowered for women.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Feb 5, 2015 9:59:13 GMT -5
I would consider myself a feminist. I believe all women and girls should have the same rights and opportunities as men. I don't think that women are better than men. I don't think women deserve more than men. I believe that women deserve an equal chance to men to prove themselves to be capable.
Given that less than 5% of Fortune 500 CEO's are women, less than 20 percent of congress is made up of women, and that more than 75% of families living in poverty are headed by women. I think right now, schooling (from kindergarten to graduate school) generally gives girls a lot of opportunities. However, I think there are still limitations in he workplace, although I think will change as this generation of girls (who expect to succeed) move into the workplace.
But, there are still challenges that women face that are unique to women. I don't want women to be considered a bitch because they approach a situation the same way a man does. I want women to receive the same sorts of opportunities to advance as men in the workplace. And, I want women to be paid equally for doing the same job (when everything else is equal). However, sometimes I think that the greatest challenge for women is dealing with other women.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 5, 2015 10:23:58 GMT -5
So by your account some men and women can drag folks out, and some men and women can't. I don't see how this fits in a discussion of the merits of feminism. If the standards are the same, I have no problem.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Feb 5, 2015 10:49:20 GMT -5
This. I think the big push to teach girls that they can do anything is going to affect young men at some point. Schools are now set up to favor girls over boys. (Less physical activity, increased demands in having children sit still, boys can not longer express themselves if it's considered "too violent.") I really do hope that my generation kinda fixes things so that when my kids grow up, they will be free to choose the best ways to live their life without assumptions being made. I'm trying to understand what you mean by this. Should young girls be encouraged to be stewardesses but not pilots? Nurses but not doctors? Secretaries but not engineers? Court stenographers but not lawyers? If I had a daughter, I'd encourage her to shoot for the moon.
No. It's about teaching boys that if they want to be SAHD and it's works for the family that it's OK. To stop teaching boys that their worth is linked to the size of their paycheck or how high they climb up the corporate ladder. Who is advocating for BOYS to do anything they want? Where are the afterschool specials for that? Or that telling a man, if you want to drop out of the workforce to take care of an ailing parent, it's OK. Once I heard some of our graduate students talk. They were managers, and one of their underlings had lost his wife recently. (Like, less than three months ago at the time this conversation took place.) He was a rather new single dad, mourning the loss of his wife and trying to hold steady for his school aged kids. These managers couldn't understand, why on the heels of the death of his wife, this man was turning down promotions. These male managers could not understand why the man wanted to be a parent to his kids and help them deal with the loss of their mother. In my department, a woman lost her husband in a tragic accident. Everyone gave her the space she needed to heal and tend to her school aged kids. I think this woman took like a month off from work, and then went part time very slowly until she had her bearings. So, why is it acceptable for a woman to mourn the loss of her husband and be there for her kids, but not acceptable for a man to mourn the loss of his wife and be there for his kids? It's about not telling parents there's something wrong with a boy if he draws a picture of something that could be interpreted as "violent" in art class. I don't have the time to find all the links. Two years ago, I went to my friends' Thesis defense. She was getting a PhD in medical physics or some such thing. I had no clue, other than to know that she was incredibly smart. I counted the ratio of men to women that attended, and was shocked that 80% of her peers that attended were women and 20% were men. There are statistics now that more women are getting degrees than men. Why is that? Why isn't anyone doing anything about it? Why aren't people in the schools telling our boys to get it together so they can be on par with women. Or is it OK, that men are now lagging women in obtaining degrees because you know, they've had it better up until the past 25 years or so... Why not simply advocate for all our children? That's all I'm asking for. We don't walk around telling our girls they can do anything and that our boy is chump change.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Feb 5, 2015 10:57:17 GMT -5
From here fortune.com/2013/03/27/boys-vs-girls-whats-behind-the-college-grad-gender-gap/ In a new book called The Rise of Women: The Growing Gender Gap in Education and What It Means for American Schools, Thomas A. DiPrete and Claudia Buchmann, sociology professors at Columbia and Ohio State, respectively, tackle that thorny question — and come up with answers that challenge conventional wisdom.
Boys get lower grades than girls, and report liking school less, not because girls are naturally more studious or because schools aren’t “boy-friendly” enough, they write. Rather, “our research shows that boys’ underperformance in school has more to do with society’s norms about masculinity … Boys involved in extracurricular cultural activities such as music, art, drama, and foreign languages report higher levels of school engagement and get better grades than other boys. But these activities are often denigrated as un-masculine.”
DiPrete and Buchmann believe schools need to do better in two main areas. First, “the most important predictor of boys’ achievement is the extent to which the school culture expects and rewards academic effort,” they write. “We need schools that set high expectations [and] treat each student as an individual, as opposed to a gender stereotype.”
ETA: I'm fully aware that some of the points here don't support what I said earlier about schools expecting boys to behave like girls. But the point is, folks are noticing that boys are starting to lag...and I think people are turning a blind eye to it because "GIRL POWER!!"
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 11:10:20 GMT -5
So by your account some men and women can drag folks out, and some men and women can't. I don't see how this fits in a discussion of the merits of feminism. It fits based on my original post. I don't think women should get special consideration if they can't do the job, just as men shouldn't. Or if there is a physical requirement then gender shouldn't be a factor. So why is this distraction brought up in a discussion of feminism?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 11:14:16 GMT -5
That's like saying no one is trying to cure cancer because they are too busy working on heart disease. You don't interrupt the people talking about the heart disease and ask why they aren't also curing cancer, why is that done when a feminist issue is brought up?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 5, 2015 11:16:15 GMT -5
I have been asked to create a program for boys by women who created and run an annual Girl Power retreat. They even allocated money. So last year I drafted a letter and asked all the adult females attending the retreat to pass it on to males they felt would be ready to join a committee to develop a curriculum. One lukewarm response.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 5, 2015 11:26:40 GMT -5
That's like saying no one is trying to cure cancer because they are too busy working on heart disease. You don't interrupt the people talking about the heart disease and ask why they aren't also curing cancer, why is that done when a feminist issue is brought up? For me, it is more about talking about how the heart and other parts of the body are connected and we should be careful to not develop a cure for heart disease that causes cancer.
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quince
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Post by quince on Feb 5, 2015 12:39:12 GMT -5
Honestly, then, I should probably identify as a feminist, because by preferring not to I am allowing the people who I disagree with to define the meaning of the word for me. I can still identify as a gender egalitarian and MRA, AND feminist. Probably should. But I've had people say that I'm not a feminist or am a bad feminist because I like porn. Or because I don't have a raging hate for girl clothes/makeup/whatever. (just a little hate ) Or have a dedication to paid year long maternity leave. Maybe it feels better to NOT be a feminist to be accused of being a bad one? Lots of people take their pet causes and anyone who doesn't align with them gets accused of being not a REAL XXX.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 5, 2015 13:19:04 GMT -5
I'm trying to understand what you mean by this. Should young girls be encouraged to be stewardesses but not pilots? Nurses but not doctors? Secretaries but not engineers? Court stenographers but not lawyers? If I had a daughter, I'd encourage her to shoot for the moon.
No. It's about teaching boys that if they want to be SAHD and it's works for the family that it's OK. To stop teaching boys that their worth is linked to the size of their paycheck or how high they climb up the corporate ladder. Who is advocating for BOYS to do anything they want? Where are the afterschool specials for that? Or that telling a man, if you want to drop out of the workforce to take care of an ailing parent, it's OK. Once I heard some of our graduate students talk. They were managers, and one of their underlings had lost his wife recently. (Like, less than three months ago at the time this conversation took place.) He was a rather new single dad, mourning the loss of his wife and trying to hold steady for his school aged kids. These managers couldn't understand, why on the heels of the death of his wife, this man was turning down promotions. These male managers could not understand why the man wanted to be a parent to his kids and help them deal with the loss of their mother.
In my department, a woman lost her husband in a tragic accident. Everyone gave her the space she needed to heal and tend to her school aged kids. I think this woman took like a month off from work, and then went part time very slowly until she had her bearings. So, why is it acceptable for a woman to mourn the loss of her husband and be there for her kids, but not acceptable for a man to mourn the loss of his wife and be there for his kids? It's about not telling parents there's something wrong with a boy if he draws a picture of something that could be interpreted as "violent" in art class. I don't have the time to find all the links. Two years ago, I went to my friends' Thesis defense. She was getting a PhD in medical physics or some such thing. I had no clue, other than to know that she was incredibly smart. I counted the ratio of men to women that attended, and was shocked that 80% of her peers that attended were women and 20% were men. There are statistics now that more women are getting degrees than men. Why is that? Why isn't anyone doing anything about it? Why aren't people in the schools telling our boys to get it together so they can be on par with women. Or is it OK, that men are now lagging women in obtaining degrees because you know, they've had it better up until the past 25 years or so... Why not simply advocate for all our children? That's all I'm asking for. We don't walk around telling our girls they can do anything and that our boy is chump change. But here's the thing. Who is it that denigrates men who want to be SAHDs? Or men who wear pink? Or men who like to sew? It's other men. It certainly isn't women. However, if we try to make our men more sensitive, if we tell them it's OK to be househusbands, if we buy our boys EZBake ovens, if we tell them it's OK not to be "macho", we're accused of "sissifying" our boys. By men.
It seems we can't win no matter what we do.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Feb 5, 2015 13:24:23 GMT -5
To me, feminism has always been about choices. How lucky are we to live in a society where both men and women have so many choices and aren't repressed as an inferior group. Sadly, over the years it's been misconstrued into something else entirely and now there is a backlash inclusive of entire anti-feminism communities. These communities believe that the feminist movement is taking away their choices to support their man, stay at home, allow the man to be the leader of the household, etc. Unfortunately, this is now what it means to a whole new generation of women who have no clue: womenagainstfeminism.tumblr.com/"I don't identify as a feminist because I don't want these women to be MY VOICE." "I don't need feminism because a GOOD man raised me, a GREAT man loves me, millions DIED for me, and THEY don't deserve your SHIT!" "I don't need feminism because I want to promise my man to love him, honor him and obey him!"
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quince
Senior Member
Joined: Sept 23, 2011 17:51:12 GMT -5
Posts: 2,699
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Post by quince on Feb 5, 2015 13:54:54 GMT -5
Women ABSOLUTELY denigrate SAHDs. Not just men. And when it comes to the communities built for SAHPs: SAHDs are often not welcome, or treated as predators for being at the park with their kids. Women denigrate men for wearing pink, and not acting in typical "manly" fashion. Just look at the threads we've had on these boards where women talk about how they want their men to be men. That's the ugly thing about sexism and feminism..it's not men keeping women down. Men AND women treat men and women unequally. I've had friends react rather unpleasantly when I say something like my kid needs his father just as much as he needs me. I know Gira has had issues with how family reacts to her husband being the SAHP: and it's probably not just the boys acting that way. In my own family, my brother was starting his business, but not talking about it, so people assumed he was the SAHS...of the people who made comments, it wasn't the men scolding him. I'm keeping an eye on how my husband's family treats my son and any other children we might have, because while my mom is a feminist and will get my dad in line when it comes to the toys he plays with and any gender stereotypes: my husband's parents consist of a MRA (the yucky kind) and his mother who gave me this book: www.amazon.com/Have-New-Husband-Friday-Communication-ebook/dp/B009NF6ASY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423162394&sr=8-1&keywords=have+a+new+husband+in+7+daysThat book isn't kind to men OR women, in my opinion. It's not just the men who maintain the rigid gender roles.
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