zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 5, 2015 12:55:10 GMT -5
Thank you. I'd be furious to find out some jerkwad infected him because of some stupid belief in herd immunity. It's one thing if it's a medical reason but another just because you're a selfish douche.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 5, 2015 13:05:53 GMT -5
I'm not for forcing vaccines, but I am perfectly ok with them being required in places like hospitals and school. Don't want to vaccinate your kid? Homeschool or kind a private that will accept him. What if a family can't realistically homeschool their child? A single-parent family, or a situation where two incomes are needed to make ends meet? What then? Are you OK with forcing vaccines families too poor to opt out?
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Feb 5, 2015 13:12:36 GMT -5
Thank you. I'd be furious to find out some jerkwad infected him because of some stupid belief in herd immunity. It's one thing if it's a medical reason but another just because you're a selfish douche. Herd immunity really does work. The problem is that it requires something like 93% to be immunized as children. When my DD was little the stats were something like 97% of all kids were vaccinated and that included people like the Amish and kids who had had cancer who couldn't be vaccinated. Today the vaccination rate around here is real close to 93%. It won't take long before we have no herd immunity anymore. That is the part that is scary to me.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 5, 2015 13:15:52 GMT -5
This can be said about any congregation of people though. Disneyland was the most recent congregation. What about doctor's offices? You bring your unimmunized child to an office and said kid has measles, you have just infected all the kids in that office.....including those babies there for well baby visits. BTW......it was just announced on TV that a Port Angeles man has been hospitalized due to measles. I have heard of some pediatricians not taking parents that don't vaccinate. Yes it will spread in any congregation, but children ate forced to be schooled. A parent can't elect not to and for most that have two income families that means public school. In that limited context I'm ok with the government demanding something that keeps my child safe. It's... interesting... to see posters approve of doctors choosing which patients they want to see and which services they want to provide. One would have thought from certain other debates that YMAM posters would balk at the notion of professionals exercising discriminate judgment.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Feb 5, 2015 13:21:06 GMT -5
Will there be for the good patients?
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 5, 2015 13:40:26 GMT -5
I'm not for forcing vaccines, but I am perfectly ok with them being required in places like hospitals and school. Don't want to vaccinate your kid? Homeschool or kind a private that will accept him. What if a family can't realistically homeschool their child? A single-parent family, or a situation where two incomes are needed to make ends meet? What then? Are you OK with forcing vaccines families too poor to opt out? It's already been done and I'm ok with it. I'm one of the few my age that have first hand experience with what some of these diseases did before vaccines and I have enough knowledge to seek out reliable, confirmed, scientific studies about vaccines.
And I honestly can't fathom the mental gymnastics those that refuse to vaccinate because they don't trust science and doctors but then turn around and trust them to keep your kid alive or prevent lasting harm. Or faithfully follow all the dos and don'ts while pregnant, if drs lie after you pop the kid they're lying before so bring on the sushi, cigarettes, and alcohol!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 5, 2015 13:48:29 GMT -5
Vaccines are free at the health dept. plus, isn't Obamacare supposed to handle all this? That's what the mantra is. If you're too poor to get your child health care, maybe you should have thought of that first.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 5, 2015 13:51:24 GMT -5
I saw a really good NOVA documentary on PBS last night. It's called "Vaccines: Calling The Shots"
Everything you ever wanted to know about vaccinations. Here's the link if anyone is interested.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 5, 2015 13:57:27 GMT -5
From the one book I read (I mentioned it in EE if anyone is interested) it's become an elitist thing to not get your kid vaccinated, not a "poor" thing.
www.amazon.com/On-Immunity-Eula-Biss/dp/1622314972
People who are well off can afford fancy paleo diets that they believe will keep them from ever getting sick or the latest medical fad that claims to be a cure all or expensive supplements hocked by Dr. Oz.
The belief is that if you are smart/rich/healthy enough that you don't need vaccinations. Vaccinations are only for those poor dirty people.
That's part of the issue with thermisol. We're so far removed from not being able to afford expensive single dose vaccinations and proper storage for them that we can demand it's removal from vaccinations despite no scientific evidence that it is harmful. Meanwhile countries like Africa really need it. They need inexpensive shelf stable vaccines that can be used to treat multiple people.
Too bad for them, if they weren't so poor they could get on the bandwagon like us.
Anyhow it was a really interesting premise and makes a lot of sense to me when I hear people talk about why they "don't need" to vaccinate.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 5, 2015 13:58:57 GMT -5
We avoid children as much as possible and don't see the former stepson with the two little ones in daycare. I cannot take the chance with DH's health or mine to infect him. Even with those precautions, he's back in hospital with low white count. Nothing is perfect but we try like hell. Damn! I'm sorry, zib! That's got to be frustrating, and scary for you both. Sure hope he's better soon.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Feb 5, 2015 14:08:29 GMT -5
I'm not for forcing vaccines, but I am perfectly ok with them being required in places like hospitals and school. Don't want to vaccinate your kid? Homeschool or kind a private that will accept him. What if a family can't realistically homeschool their child? A single-parent family, or a situation where two incomes are needed to make ends meet? What then? Are you OK with forcing vaccines families too poor to opt out? I'm totally ok with it
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 5, 2015 14:18:15 GMT -5
We avoid children as much as possible and don't see the former stepson with the two little ones in daycare. I cannot take the chance with DH's health or mine to infect him. Even with those precautions, he's back in hospital with low white count. Nothing is perfect but we try like hell. Damn! I'm sorry, zib! That's got to be frustrating, and scary for you both. Sure hope he's better soon. We're coming up on the littlest ones first birthday. Ex won't be there, she's wind surfing in Bonaire. But we won't either because of health concerns.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 5, 2015 14:34:59 GMT -5
Damn! I'm sorry, zib! That's got to be frustrating, and scary for you both. Sure hope he's better soon. We're coming up on the littlest ones first birthday. Ex won't be there, she's wind surfing in Bonaire. But we won't either because of health concerns. What a shame. I'm so sorry it has to be like this. Best wishes to your DH that he recover and get stronger.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 5, 2015 14:40:31 GMT -5
Thank you.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Feb 5, 2015 14:54:56 GMT -5
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Feb 5, 2015 15:35:18 GMT -5
Damn! I'm sorry, zib! That's got to be frustrating, and scary for you both. Sure hope he's better soon. We're coming up on the littlest ones first birthday. Ex won't be there, she's wind surfing in Bonaire. But we won't either because of health concerns. Oh, I am so sorry you will have to miss this special day. Praying for good health for your family.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Feb 5, 2015 15:37:06 GMT -5
It's funny - those that don't vaccinate think of themselves as "Good Parents", but I think you are a "Bad Parent" and "Irresponsible" if you don't vaccinate (other than for a Medical Reason like an adverse reaction).
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Feb 5, 2015 15:51:45 GMT -5
It's funny - those that don't vaccinate think of themselves as "Good Parents", but I think you are a "Bad Parent" and "Irresponsible" if you don't vaccinate (other than for a Medical Reason like an adverse reaction).
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 5, 2015 16:36:12 GMT -5
What if a family can't realistically homeschool their child? A single-parent family, or a situation where two incomes are needed to make ends meet? What then? Are you OK with forcing vaccines families too poor to opt out? It's already been done and I'm ok with it. I'm one of the few my age that have first hand experience with what some of these diseases did before vaccines and I have enough knowledge to seek out reliable, confirmed, scientific studies about vaccines.
And I honestly can't fathom the mental gymnastics those that refuse to vaccinate because they don't trust science and doctors but then turn around and trust them to keep your kid alive or prevent lasting harm. Or faithfully follow all the dos and don'ts while pregnant, if drs lie after you pop the kid they're lying before so bring on the sushi, cigarettes, and alcohol!
Fair enough. But if we're being honest, the statement "I'm not for forcing vaccines." isn't accurate. The most that can be said is that you tolerate not forcing vaccines under some circumstances. I don't fathom how people can so readily divorce their views on vaccination, wherefor they condone heavy-handed state interference "for the public good", from their views on that which shall not be named, where personal choice and freedom are so highly valued that they trump all other factors including life itself. I can at least understand the mentality of the individual who values freedom of choice (i.e. keeping government "out of people's bodies") above the collective good of society, and is consistent in his/her priorities. I may not agree with their values, but I understand them. What I fail to understand is how reasonable people so readily rationalize around the glaring inconsistencies in their values when accommodating incompatible viewpoints (e.g. having witnessed the ravages of disease in an unvaccinated community first-hand and becoming convinced state intervention is necessary). It's as though they've never critically examined what they believe and why. Their values are simply a patchwork of rationalizations, omissions, and circular logic constructed with the express goal of justifying a pastiche of personal ideals. One's fundamental values shouldn't change based on context. Although many situations do admit relevant distinctions that avoid contradictions, this issue of whether or not the state has the fundamental right to invade citizens' bodies for the collective good of society isn't one of them. Nor can this be construed as a matter of degree, since the mortality of that which shall not be named is many orders of magnitude greater than the mortality toll due to unvaccinated children. I see no logical way to reconcile the schism between the two, and given the number of "It's complex." and "It's a sticky issue." non-answers in this thread, I'm definitely not alone.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 5, 2015 16:37:06 GMT -5
One would have thought from certain other debates that YMAM posters would balk at the notion of professionals exercising discriminate judgment.
They already do. It is not uncommon for a physician to 'fire' a non-compliant patient.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 16:42:08 GMT -5
What if a family can't realistically homeschool their child? A single-parent family, or a situation where two incomes are needed to make ends meet? What then? Are you OK with forcing vaccines families too poor to opt out? It's already been done and I'm ok with it. I'm one of the few my age that have first hand experience with what some of these diseases did before vaccines and I have enough knowledge to seek out reliable, confirmed, scientific studies about vaccines.
And I honestly can't fathom the mental gymnastics those that refuse to vaccinate because they don't trust science and doctors but then turn around and trust them to keep your kid alive or prevent lasting harm. Or faithfully follow all the dos and don'ts while pregnant, if drs lie after you pop the kid they're lying before so bring on the sushi, cigarettes, and alcohol!
A lot of them don't. They use alternatives. Some of them home birth or midwife center birth and go home the same day, holistic, homeopathic, etc...
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 5, 2015 16:49:49 GMT -5
One would have thought from certain other debates that YMAM posters would balk at the notion of professionals exercising discriminate judgment.They already do. It is not uncommon for a physician to 'fire' a non-compliant patient. It seems quite reasonable, don't get me wrong. My mind keeps on wandering back to certain other situations where a doctor/pharmacist saying "You will do this; you will do this; otherwise I will not treat you." elicited more of a torches-and-pitchforks-revoke-the-bastard's-license reaction from our resident posters.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 5, 2015 16:58:35 GMT -5
I would argue that in one instance my decision only affects me and mine. I'm not putting the public in harm's way.
If I choose not to vaccinate then I am putting all the babies under a year old at my child's daycare at risk. I am putting people like zib's DH at risk. I am putting people I come into contact with at work at risk.
It's one of those "lives of the many" type situations. For the most part I am supportive of people having the rights to their own bodies and parents being able to make decisions for their children.
But when it starts to impinge on my rights there is a problem. Abby will be vaccinated but she can't have the MMR till she's a year old. You (hypothetical) not vaccinating puts her in danger even though I am making the opposite choice. I have no vote in you putting my child into harm's way.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Feb 5, 2015 17:04:10 GMT -5
It's already been done and I'm ok with it. I'm one of the few my age that have first hand experience with what some of these diseases did before vaccines and I have enough knowledge to seek out reliable, confirmed, scientific studies about vaccines.
And I honestly can't fathom the mental gymnastics those that refuse to vaccinate because they don't trust science and doctors but then turn around and trust them to keep your kid alive or prevent lasting harm. Or faithfully follow all the dos and don'ts while pregnant, if drs lie after you pop the kid they're lying before so bring on the sushi, cigarettes, and alcohol!
Fair enough. But if we're being honest, the statement "I'm not for forcing vaccines." isn't accurate. The most that can be said is that you tolerate not forcing vaccines under some circumstances. I don't fathom how people can so readily divorce their views on vaccination, wherefor they condone heavy-handed state interference "for the public good", from their views on that which shall not be named, where personal choice and freedom are so highly valued that they trump all other factors including life itself.
I can at least understand the mentality of the individual who values freedom of choice (i.e. keeping government "out of people's bodies") above the collective good of society, and is consistent in his/her priorities. I may not agree with their values, but I understand them. What I fail to understand is how reasonable people so readily rationalize around the glaring inconsistencies in their values when accommodating incompatible viewpoints (e.g. having witnessed the ravages of disease in an unvaccinated community first-hand and becoming convinced state intervention is necessary). It's as though they've never critically examined what they believe and why. Their values are simply a patchwork of rationalizations, omissions, and circular logic constructed with the express goal of justifying a pastiche of personal ideals. One's fundamental values shouldn't change based on context. Although many situations do admit relevant distinctions that avoid contradictions, this issue of whether or not the state has the fundamental right to invade citizens' bodies for the collective good of society isn't one of them. Nor can this be construed as a matter of degree, since the mortality of that which shall not be named is many orders of magnitude greater than the mortality toll due to unvaccinated children. I see no logical way to reconcile the schism between the two, and given the number of "It's complex." and "It's a sticky issue." non-answers in this thread, I'm definitely not alone. You don't fathom it because you aren't paying attention to the differences between the two situations. In this situation an unvaccinated child can pose a risk to others. Whereas, what a woman chooses to do with her body will never pose a risk to the health or safety of someone else's child.
This is about protecting the safety of others, which I put above freedom of choice. This is why if the family chooses to homeschool, then I don't care what they do as far as vaccinations. They are making that choice without impacting the safety of other public school children.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 17:04:45 GMT -5
One would have thought from certain other debates that YMAM posters would balk at the notion of professionals exercising discriminate judgment.They already do. It is not uncommon for a physician to 'fire' a non-compliant patient. It seems quite reasonable, don't get me wrong. My mind keeps on wandering back to certain other situations where a doctor/pharmacist saying "You will do this; you will do this; otherwise I will not treat you." elicited more of a torches-and-pitchforks-revoke-the-bastard's-license reaction from our resident posters. Can you give me a for instance ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 17:06:58 GMT -5
A lot of my anti vac friends do not really see doctors unless absolutely necessary for acute type issues. And a lot of peds around here won't take anti vac.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 5, 2015 17:12:45 GMT -5
I think people are confusing lack of choice with consequence of your choice. You have a choice to do anything in America, but that does not free you from consequence. Choose to murder? Enjoy your jail sentence. Choose to work, here's your tax bill. Choose not to vaccinate your child - have fun homeschooling. We as a society have deemed certain things more desirable, some things mandatory. I'm not sure of one that takes away your choice from you, but all choices have consequences. Welcome to a free life.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 17:15:04 GMT -5
I know several Again this is an area in which homeschooling skews my averages I'd guess
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 17:17:34 GMT -5
Choosing to murder or to pay taxes is NOT akin to medical intervention... Not in my book. I think mandatory medical intervention sets a different kind of precedence.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 5, 2015 17:18:23 GMT -5
You must know my friend who homebirthed, used chiropractic manipulation on her infant, non-vaxxing, homeopathic doctor, and sees spiritualists. She also held a chicken pox party when her son caught it. Not sure on the spiritualist and if that differs from a Christian church or not, but otherwise that's my bros family. At least their chiropractor offers a monthly rate. Though actually I wouldn't mind one if they had a reasonable rate.
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