Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,615
|
Post by Tennesseer on Feb 4, 2015 18:57:25 GMT -5
Forget the driver not buckling up. Maybe not requiring your passengers, including children, to be buckled up harms them (others) when the driver is involved in an accident.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Feb 4, 2015 18:58:00 GMT -5
Yes we should have aright to chose, but when it comes to public health and public safety (think car seat belts) your choice should not put others in danger. As far as the posted side affects, ever read the side affects for common medicines? They cover everything from the reason you are taking them to every pain you can think of. Just covering their asses. Just curious. How does a person not wearing a seat belt put others in danger? the argument is typically not made on that basis. it is typically made on the cost of the driver at the hospital, putting back together the ripped apart pieces. so long as drivers are OK with not being treated at the hospital, i think we should let people go ahead and not wear seatbelts. that way, no resources will be used preserving their lives, which they didn't see fit to protect.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 4, 2015 19:06:32 GMT -5
Well to use an often used logic tactic... a death is a death even if it's rare. But I'll go back to my original point... I'm not anti vaccination. I'm pro-questioning and freedom to choose. i hope i am not the only one here who sees a certain inconsistency with a certain OTHER hot button issue, here. If you mean that 95% of the people in this thread A-OK with compulsory vaccination (or with imposing penalties and restrictions only on families that choose not to vaccinate) also swear up, down, left, and right that government has no business interfering with people's bodies, you are indeed not alone in your observation.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Feb 4, 2015 19:08:43 GMT -5
i hope i am not the only one here who sees a certain inconsistency with a certain OTHER hot button issue, here. If you mean that 95% of the people in this thread A-OK with compulsory vaccination (or with imposing penalties and restrictions only on families that choose not to vaccinate) also swear up, down, left, and right that government has no business interfering with people's bodies, you are indeed not alone in your observation. close enough. edit: i should point out, however, that i have not in this thread insisted that "the government mandate" anything.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 18, 2024 21:31:26 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 19:09:35 GMT -5
Yes. That's what Family Court is for. And that is what happened. Unfortunately they had to induce labor at 30 weeks, so there is a high chance the kid will have disabilities. But, the courts cannot force in-utero blood transfusions & the kid was going to die. So, the doctors convinced the mother to induce that early to give the kid a chance to survive & then went through the courts to force a blood transfusion that the mother refused.
I just am curious how people that don't want the govt to interfere with these issues feel about situations like this. Should the govt let the parents make bad decisions that would lead to death? Is there anytime when interfering is acceptable? I guess I am asking, is there a gray area or is it always non-interference is best?
Wait, they wanted to force the pregnant woman to get transfusions?
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on Feb 4, 2015 19:12:39 GMT -5
Lets start by getting every illegal and legal immigrant vaccinated.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 18, 2024 21:31:26 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 19:14:55 GMT -5
Like swamp said, court intervention requires imminent harm (or something to the effect) .. That to me I'd not vaccinations.
I personally think people shouldn't let their 10 and 6 year olds walk a mile and spend the afternoon in the park alone... I think that is dangerous...
You need to decide how much you want the state deciding what you should and should not be able to do...
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 18, 2024 21:31:26 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 19:16:13 GMT -5
Lets start by getting every illegal and legal immigrant vaccinated. Legal ones are. Husband had to have them ... They kept losing his chicken pox verification, I think he had that one like 3 times ...
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Feb 4, 2015 19:19:56 GMT -5
And that is what happened. Unfortunately they had to induce labor at 30 weeks, so there is a high chance the kid will have disabilities. But, the courts cannot force in-utero blood transfusions & the kid was going to die. So, the doctors convinced the mother to induce that early to give the kid a chance to survive & then went through the courts to force a blood transfusion that the mother refused.
I just am curious how people that don't want the govt to interfere with these issues feel about situations like this. Should the govt let the parents make bad decisions that would lead to death? Is there anytime when interfering is acceptable? I guess I am asking, is there a gray area or is it always non-interference is best?
Wait, they wanted to force the pregnant woman to get transfusions? No, the baby needed a blood transfusion. The baby was several anemic to the point it was at high risk of forming hydrops, which can cause brain damage or death. They can give a transfusion in-utero, but she can refuse that. Leaving the only option to deliver the baby extremely early & then give the blood transfusion to the baby, which would be court ordered. I suppose she could have refused to be induced as well, but she did choose that option.
|
|
kittensaver
Junior Associate
We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
Joined: Nov 22, 2011 16:16:36 GMT -5
Posts: 7,983
|
Post by kittensaver on Feb 4, 2015 19:27:01 GMT -5
You need to decide how much you want the state deciding what you should and should not be able to do...
BEFORE they take that decision away from you . . . thus the need/desire/ability to freely question "authority."
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on Feb 4, 2015 19:31:55 GMT -5
Lets start by getting every illegal and legal immigrant vaccinated. First you try to make it about liberals and now you're trying to make it about immigrants. Do try to focus.
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on Feb 4, 2015 19:36:04 GMT -5
Lets start by getting every illegal and legal immigrant vaccinated. First you try to make it about liberals and now you're trying to make it about immigrants. Do try to focus. Do you agree or disagree ?
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on Feb 4, 2015 19:43:46 GMT -5
Lets start by getting every illegal and legal immigrant vaccinated. First you try to make it about liberals and now you're trying to make it about immigrants. Do try to focus. You hacked the Nationwide thread by posting music videos soooo I think I am still on topic
|
|
NastyWoman
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 20:50:37 GMT -5
Posts: 14,420
Member is Online
|
Post by NastyWoman on Feb 4, 2015 20:12:32 GMT -5
Lets start by getting every illegal and legal immigrant vaccinated. Legal ones are. Husband had to have them ... They kept losing his chicken pox verification, I think he had that one like 3 times ... It's a series of 3 shots. Quite expensive too. Ask me how I know...
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Feb 4, 2015 20:32:25 GMT -5
Lets start by getting every illegal and legal immigrant vaccinated. vaccinations are required for legal immigrants, unless you plead a compelling exemption.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 18, 2024 21:31:26 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 20:50:06 GMT -5
I really don't think chicken pox is a three series...
|
|
NastyWoman
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 20:50:37 GMT -5
Posts: 14,420
Member is Online
|
Post by NastyWoman on Feb 4, 2015 20:55:48 GMT -5
I really don't think chicken pox is a three series... well then they jabbed me twice for no reason...
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 18, 2024 21:31:26 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 20:59:01 GMT -5
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Feb 4, 2015 22:44:24 GMT -5
i hope i am not the only one here who sees a certain inconsistency with a certain OTHER hot button issue, here. You want to see someone's head explode... Use the phrase "my body, my choice" in the context of vaccines I would actually agree when it comes to adults, with the exception of say healthcare workers or daycare workers. I think people routinely working around small children or at risk populations should be immunized. I also think it is fine to have a choice for your kids, unless your children are around other children (like a school or daycare). I am all for choice unless you are in an environment that puts others at risk by choosing not to vaccinate. Then your choice could negatively impact the health & safety of others.
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Feb 4, 2015 22:49:25 GMT -5
Might be some overlap on issues but young children have no choice- of course according to Paul they are owned by their parents so they are merely property- but that goes against personhood and government protection of the unborn- which would lead directly to government protection of newborns- thereby putting pro-life in the same camp with pro-vaccine negating parental 'choice' which Paul says they should have and now my head is going to explode
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 18, 2024 21:31:26 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 23:14:38 GMT -5
But Angel they have a choice to work in that environment or not...
|
|
Wisconsin Beth
Distinguished Associate
No, we don't walk away. But when we're holding on to something precious, we run.
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:59:36 GMT -5
Posts: 30,626
|
Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 5, 2015 7:42:20 GMT -5
I really don't think chicken pox is a three series... For my kids, the chicken pox vac was a 2 shots but I don't remember the time frame for them.
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Feb 5, 2015 9:22:09 GMT -5
I'm not for forcing vaccines, but I am perfectly ok with them being required in places like hospitals and school. Don't want to vaccinate your kid? Homeschool or kind a private that will accept him.
If the school let unvaccinated kids in and there was an outbreak and one of the unvaccinated kids ended up dead or deaf, do you think the parents would just say "well I guess Timmy just wasn't meant to survive with his weaker immune system" or sue the school for creating an environment where the measles could quickly and easily spread to everyone?
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,869
|
Post by zibazinski on Feb 5, 2015 9:50:52 GMT -5
Not just the school. I'd be going after the parents of the "carrier" as well. To me that is no different than sending your kid to school with a loaded gun.
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 5, 2015 9:51:50 GMT -5
I'm not for forcing vaccines, but I am perfectly ok with them being required in places like hospitals and school. Don't want to vaccinate your kid? Homeschool or kind a private that will accept him. If the school let unvaccinated kids in and there was an outbreak and one of the unvaccinated kids ended up dead or deaf, do you think the parents would just say "well I guess Timmy just wasn't meant to survive with his weaker immune system" or sue the school for creating an environment where the measles could quickly and easily spread to everyone? This can be said about any congregation of people though. Disneyland was the most recent congregation. What about doctor's offices? You bring your unimmunized child to an office and said kid has measles, you have just infected all the kids in that office.....including those babies there for well baby visits. BTW......it was just announced on TV that a Port Angeles man has been hospitalized due to measles.
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Feb 5, 2015 10:47:45 GMT -5
I'm not for forcing vaccines, but I am perfectly ok with them being required in places like hospitals and school. Don't want to vaccinate your kid? Homeschool or kind a private that will accept him. If the school let unvaccinated kids in and there was an outbreak and one of the unvaccinated kids ended up dead or deaf, do you think the parents would just say "well I guess Timmy just wasn't meant to survive with his weaker immune system" or sue the school for creating an environment where the measles could quickly and easily spread to everyone? This can be said about any congregation of people though. Disneyland was the most recent congregation. What about doctor's offices? You bring your unimmunized child to an office and said kid has measles, you have just infected all the kids in that office.....including those babies there for well baby visits. BTW......it was just announced on TV that a Port Angeles man has been hospitalized due to measles. I have heard of some pediatricians not taking parents that don't vaccinate. Yes it will spread in any congregation, but children ate forced to be schooled. A parent can't elect not to and for most that have two income families that means public school. In that limited context I'm ok with the government demanding something that keeps my child safe.
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Feb 5, 2015 10:47:54 GMT -5
I'm not for forcing vaccines, but I am perfectly ok with them being required in places like hospitals and school. Don't want to vaccinate your kid? Homeschool or kind a private that will accept him. If the school let unvaccinated kids in and there was an outbreak and one of the unvaccinated kids ended up dead or deaf, do you think the parents would just say "well I guess Timmy just wasn't meant to survive with his weaker immune system" or sue the school for creating an environment where the measles could quickly and easily spread to everyone? This can be said about any congregation of people though. Disneyland was the most recent congregation. What about doctor's offices? You bring your unimmunized child to an office and said kid has measles, you have just infected all the kids in that office.....including those babies there for well baby visits. BTW......it was just announced on TV that a Port Angeles man has been hospitalized due to measles. Public places will always be a risk. Unless you force vaccines on everyone, then the risk exists.
There are doctors now that won't accept patients that choose not to vaccinate for this very reason. I don't think this is very common, but if more outbreaks start occurring, then more doctors might take a stand to protect their other patients.
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Feb 5, 2015 10:49:19 GMT -5
i have heard of some pediatricians not taking parents that don't vaccinate. I'm starting to feel like I just follow you around & repeat everything you say 15 seconds after you say it.
|
|
973beachbum
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:13 GMT -5
Posts: 10,501
|
Post by 973beachbum on Feb 5, 2015 11:57:42 GMT -5
This is a tough one but I am on the side of the public good being done first and explaining it to thick headed people afterward. My DD had a mild reaction to her first pertussis vaccine and a moderate reaction to the second. As a result she can't get a booster of it every again. The risk of her having a severe reaction is just too high. When she was little the world was different though. The Dr's told me it was okay because since almost everyone else was vaccinated she would be protected by the herd immunity. Guess that isn't going to help now. I actually knew a man who got whooping cough from his grandson. He was 50 and was in and out of the hospital for 6 months. When I first heard him coughing I thought he had lung cancer or something it was so bad. He eventually died from the damage it did to his lungs and heart. I always wonder how his daughter and grandson feel when they think of him. I can't imagine living knowing I killed my father or grandfather.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,869
|
Post by zibazinski on Feb 5, 2015 12:45:12 GMT -5
We avoid children as much as possible and don't see the former stepson with the two little ones in daycare. I cannot take the chance with DH's health or mine to infect him. Even with those precautions, he's back in hospital with low white count. Nothing is perfect but we try like hell.
|
|