EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Feb 2, 2015 22:50:39 GMT -5
Time to turn in that medical license....
talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/jack-wolfson-vaccines-doctor-measles
The doctor said that children should not avoid getting infections such as measels and mumps. "These are the rights of our children to get it," he told KPNX.
The CNN interviewer asked Wolfson repeatedly if he could live with himself if his unvaccinated child got other children, like Sacks' daughter, fatally sick.
“I could live with myself easily. It’s an unfortunate thing that people die, but people die. And I’m not going to put my child at risk to save another child,” he said.
"I'm not going to sacrifice the wellbeing of my child," he added. "My child is pure."
time.com/3689645/wolfson-antivaccine-measles/
Why the hell are Christie and others paying any heed to these crazy people at all? CNN shares in the blame of any children that die for putting his ass on the air (as if there was any debate to be had) where he might influence other idiots.
Inexplicable.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 3, 2015 0:22:35 GMT -5
They value the freedom of choice more than they value eliminating the small risk that their children will be infected by the measles, develop serious complications, and die. It's really not that complicated. Call it pro choice for vaccines.
As for liability, he's no more liable for deaths resulting from eschewing vaccines than pro-vax doctors are liable for deaths resulting from recommending vaccines.
There's a vaccine debate presently active over in EE. You'll probably want to repost this over there if you want people to discuss it.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 3, 2015 11:49:13 GMT -5
and if that small risk turns into an epidemic? what then?
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Feb 3, 2015 12:39:41 GMT -5
They value the freedom of choice more than they value eliminating the small risk that their children will be infected by the measles, develop serious complications, and die. It's really not that complicated. Call it pro choice for vaccines. As for liability, he's no more liable for deaths resulting from eschewing vaccines than pro-vax doctors are liable for deaths resulting from recommending vaccines. There's a vaccine debate presently active over in EE. You'll probably want to repost this over there if you want people to discuss it. And why is it a small risk......Ahhh the good old vaccine free days where measles killed millions
Anyway- I was not planning on discussing the pros and cons of vaccinations- there is no debate to be had- over and done.
I was questioning what the hell Christie and Paul are doing by even acknowledging these morons. Are they just planning on losing the primary?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 3, 2015 12:49:43 GMT -5
leadership means saying what is right, not what will win votes.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Feb 3, 2015 12:52:31 GMT -5
leadership means saying what is right, not what will win votes. Are we talking theory, or reality?
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 3, 2015 12:57:37 GMT -5
leadership means saying what is right, not what will win votes. This concept explains a lot about politicians and politics right now.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 3, 2015 13:12:40 GMT -5
The smallpox vaccine should be voluntary and at the discretion of the parents.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 3, 2015 13:16:53 GMT -5
It's probably part to pander to those that believe that crap and part to just not agree with Obama.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Feb 3, 2015 13:37:28 GMT -5
I doubt there is enough anti-vaccine people to make a blip in any election- at least I really hope so.
I wonder if Christie will be quarantining kids with measles or does that only apply to people that don't have fearbola.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Feb 3, 2015 13:42:06 GMT -5
The smallpox vaccine should be voluntary and at the discretion of the parents. Apparently Rand Paul thinks so.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 3, 2015 13:49:13 GMT -5
The smallpox vaccine should be voluntary and at the discretion of the parents. Apparently Rand Paul thinks so. Dr. Ben Carson doesn't. Imagine that.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 3, 2015 13:51:50 GMT -5
leadership means saying what is right, not what will win votes. Are we talking theory, or reality? reality. qed, those that fail to do this are not actually leaders. they are followers.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 3, 2015 14:04:53 GMT -5
I doubt there is enough anti-vaccine people to make a blip in any election- at least I really hope so.
I wonder if Christie will be quarantining kids with measles or does that only apply to people that don't have fearbola. I have no idea anymore. My fb news feed almost always has at least one pro or anti vax on it.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 3, 2015 14:15:17 GMT -5
oh, by the way, UNLIKE EBOLA, measles is, in fact, an airborne disease and highly contagious.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 3, 2015 14:25:37 GMT -5
Just saw an article about a daycare in California that had to close because an infant got measles. None of the kids in the infant room were old enough for the shot so they're now under three week quarantine.
That's gotta be fun for the parents.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 3, 2015 14:28:32 GMT -5
Just saw an article about a daycare in California that had to close because an infant got measles. None of the kids in the infant room were old enough for the shot so they're now under three week quarantine. That's gotta be fun for the parents. Ouch. That would so totally suck as a parent. Any word if any of the parents of the infants are anti-vaccination? I'm curious if this would be a contingency they'd have planned for. And I'm only be a little bit snide here - mostly curious.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 3, 2015 14:35:25 GMT -5
They value the freedom of choice more than they value eliminating the small risk that their children will be infected by the measles, develop serious complications, and die. It's really not that complicated. Call it pro choice for vaccines. As for liability, he's no more liable for deaths resulting from eschewing vaccines than pro-vax doctors are liable for deaths resulting from recommending vaccines. There's a vaccine debate presently active over in EE. You'll probably want to repost this over there if you want people to discuss it. And why is it a small risk......Ahhh the good old vaccine free days where measles killed millions
Anyway- I was not planning on discussing the pros and cons of vaccinations- there is no debate to be had- over and done.
I was questioning what the hell Christie and Paul are doing by even acknowledging these morons. Are they just planning on losing the primary?
See the debate in the other vaccine thread. The risk of measles leading to serious complications or death is sub-1%, i.e. a small risk. No, the fact that it's a small risk doesn't mean it's a good idea to eschew the vaccine. No, the fact that a sub-1% chance applied to millions of people equals many deaths does not negate the fact that is it a small risk. No, the fact that it no longer seems like a small risk "when it happens to you" does not negate the fact that it is a small risk. Why are politicians acknowledging the anti-vaccine movement? Because they're pro-liberty, and with the recent measles outbreak this happens to be the personal liberty issue at the forefront of people's minds at this cosmic moment in time.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 3, 2015 14:36:11 GMT -5
oh, by the way, UNLIKE EBOLA, measles is, in fact, an airborne disease and highly contagious.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 3, 2015 14:44:55 GMT -5
and if that small risk turns into an epidemic? what then? The state declares martial law and forces parents to inject their children with whatever substances it deems necessary? You tell me. You're the guy who flips between "social contract" and "the government has no right!" on a hair trigger. Is this "social contract" or "government has no right!"?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 3, 2015 14:45:17 GMT -5
oh, by the way, UNLIKE EBOLA, measles is, in fact, an airborne disease and highly contagious. you're right. i couldn't resist. OH THE SHAME!
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 3, 2015 14:46:11 GMT -5
and if that small risk turns into an epidemic? what then? The state declares martial law and forces parents to inject their children with whatever substances it deems necessary? You tell me. You're the guy who flips between "social contract" and "the government has no right!" on a hair trigger. Is this "social contract" or "government has no right!"? this is an interesting observation, but i don't think it is very accurate.
the social contract endows the government with powers from those who consent to give it. it does not endow the government to powers that are forbidden by the constitution (or in case law, when the constitution fails to answer the question).
in this case, i think either case could be made. however, i was not actually arguing for a government mandate. what i was arguing is that we stop making stupid arguments about whether the vaccine turns kids into retards or not. that is well established. i think the government should advise people to get vaccinated. i think that schools should probably demand it, if they had any jurisdiction or sense, given the highly contagious nature of the disease, and the fact that they are public institutions, with the associated public risks.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 3, 2015 14:47:11 GMT -5
I'm going for C. Social contract overseen by the gov't to ensure that it stays cheap enough to continue to vaccinate.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 3, 2015 14:57:39 GMT -5
I've searched and can't find the last time someone died from the measles vaccine. Based on last year's numbers 440 people died in the last hour from measles. Which should I chose? Such a tough question...
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Feb 3, 2015 15:02:02 GMT -5
Gaaahhhh!
I am a firm believer in less government intrusion into personal lives. I don't think we have the right to force anyone to get vaccinated.
But I'm on the fence about requiring vaccinations to attend publically funded schools. (Interesting side note - the non compliance rate at DD's old private school was about 12% - that just blew my mind).
Personal choice over public safety, what a conflict.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 3, 2015 15:39:21 GMT -5
The state declares martial law and forces parents to inject their children with whatever substances it deems necessary? You tell me. You're the guy who flips between "social contract" and "the government has no right!" on a hair trigger. Is this "social contract" or "government has no right!"? this is an interesting observation, but i don't think it is very accurate.
the social contract endows the government with powers from those who consent to give it. it does not endow the government to powers that are forbidden by the constitution (or in case law, when the constitution fails to answer the question).
in this case, i think either case could be made. however, i was not actually arguing for a government mandate. what i was arguing is that we stop making stupid arguments about whether the vaccine turns kids into retards or not. that is well established. i think the government should advise people to get vaccinated. i think that schools should probably demand it, if they had any jurisdiction or sense, given the highly contagious nature of the disease, and the fact that they are public institutions, with the associated public risks.
I thought Paul managed to convince you that the social contract has nothing to do with consent. You're born into it and required to adhere to the terms whether or not you like them. The only escape is to move to Antarctica. Since you've insisted that getting to an ID-issuing office once every five years is divesting people of their right to vote, I can only assume that you consider "If you don't like it, move to Antarctica." to be divesting people of their right to decline the social contract. As for government powers forbidden by the Constitution, I'm not sure if you've looked around lately, but... Thirdly, anti-vaccine parents/doctors are generally worried about allergic reactions, autoimmune disorders, autism, and the known unknowns of vaccines, not what you've suggested. I'll also point out that numerous posters take considerable offense to the word "retards", especially when the term is used as a catch-all. Finally, if public schools demand vaccines, so be it. Parents will take their kids out of public schools en masse and either homeschool them or put them in private schools with no such requirements. In the case of homeschooling, it will significantly reduce the kids' risk of coming into contact with an infected person in the first place, hence it all works out for the best. Let's just hope that Sec. Holder and others who've openly talked about abolishing home schooling in America don't get their way in the interim.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 3, 2015 15:40:01 GMT -5
Gaaahhhh! I am a firm believer in less government intrusion into personal lives. I don't think we have the right to force anyone to get vaccinated. But I'm on the fence about requiring vaccinations to attend publically funded schools. (Interesting side note - the non compliance rate at DD's old private school was about 12% - that just blew my mind). Personal choice over public safety, what a conflict. If you don't support mandatory vaccines, the terrorists win.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 3, 2015 15:43:24 GMT -5
Gaaahhhh! I am a firm believer in less government intrusion into personal lives. I don't think we have the right to force anyone to get vaccinated. But I'm on the fence about requiring vaccinations to attend publically funded schools. (Interesting side note - the non compliance rate at DD's old private school was about 12% - that just blew my mind). Personal choice over public safety, what a conflict. If you don't support mandatory vaccines, the terrorists diseases win. Fixed that.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 3, 2015 15:43:39 GMT -5
Please explain to me how Chris Christie can insist on the quarantine of a nurse who worked with Ebola patients in Africa, even though she did not show any signs of the disease, and but then say that vaccinating children is a parent's choice?
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Feb 3, 2015 15:45:13 GMT -5
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