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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2015 14:34:46 GMT -5
leadership means saying what is right, not what will win votes. Conundrum. Winning the votes is what puts you in a leadership position.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 6, 2015 14:41:55 GMT -5
When I was pregnant with DD, I found out I had no immunity to German measles. Obviously I could not be immunized then but I had to be super careful. Don't know why I wasn't tested with DS I remember having to get the vaccine at the pediatric office and signing all kinds of forms stating I wasn't pregnant and had no plans to do so in the next 6 months. Thank GOD people were mostly civilized then and had themselves and their kids vaccinated. But she could have been born dead or horribly disabled.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 6, 2015 14:51:45 GMT -5
leadership means saying what is right, not what will win votes. Conundrum. Winning the votes is what puts you in a leadership position. if you have to sacrifice your soul to become a leader, then we shall forever be ruled by soul-less men and women. is that really the fate you see for us?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2015 14:52:03 GMT -5
When I was pregnant with DD, I found out I had no immunity to German measles. Obviously I could not be immunized then but I had to be super careful. Don't know why I wasn't tested with DS I remember having to get the vaccine at the pediatric office and signing all kinds of forms stating I wasn't pregnant and had no plans to do so in the next 6 months. Thank GOD people were mostly civilized then and had themselves and their kids vaccinated. But she could have been born dead or horribly disabled. I knew a mother years ago who absolutely refused to get vaccines for her or her kids. She wouldn't even get a flu shot when working as a caregiver. She was afraid to have anything injected into her. There was nothing I could say to change her mind. Her kids eventually got vaccinated for the usual stuff when they were older and on their own. It was needless risk for her and the kids and for who ever they came in contact with.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2015 14:57:18 GMT -5
Conundrum. Winning the votes is what puts you in a leadership position. if you have to sacrifice your soul to become a leader, then we shall forever be ruled by soul-less men and women. is that really the fate you see for us? Unfortunately, it's all I see now. The ones who don't toe the line of vote/poll popularity aren't long for their office. A shortcoming of an aging democratic system of government ?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 6, 2015 15:11:57 GMT -5
if you have to sacrifice your soul to become a leader, then we shall forever be ruled by soul-less men and women. is that really the fate you see for us? Unfortunately, it's all I see now. The ones who don't toe the line of vote/poll popularity aren't long for their office. A shortcoming of an aging democratic system of government ? would you consider me a googley eyed optimist if i refuse to give in to that cynicism?
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Feb 6, 2015 15:14:05 GMT -5
It isn't just about the one's that can't vaccinate. It is also about maintaining herd immunity. Vaccines aren't 100% effective, but you don't know who falls into the 1-5% who aren't protected. So, it is about protecting them as well. Then it is about protecting our society. We aren't going to force everyone in the general public to vaccinate just because. But, if we require certain vaccinations to attend public schools, then most will comply & we will maintain herd immunity levels of vaccination rates.
You are making it about 1 single kid. It isn't about 1 single kid. It is about the whole bigger picture. Doing this not only helps to protect that kid, but it also helps to protect siblings that aren't old enough to be vaccinated, it protects those few for whom the vaccinations didn't work & they don't even know. Hell, it protects the unborn from dying or being born with lifelong disabilities if their mother was unable to vaccinate. It protects us from an epidemic that could hospitalize thousands & cost lives.
Yes, 1 kid not getting the shot doesn't make the difference. But, when tons of kids don't get the shot because 'you don't need it if everyone else has had the shot', then immunity starts breaking down.
Actually I'm making it more than one single kid. I'm just using 1 kid to ask my question. Why is it ok to force a person to undergo a medical procedure in instance A but not instance B? Now I'm just confused. What medical procedure are you referring to with B? Not bringing peanuts to school?
Assuming that is what you were referring too...Because the kid allergic to peanuts can adequately protect himself without requiring that much imposition on others. Making an entire school peanut-free is in almost all cases overkill to protect a kid with allergies. Keeping herd immunity is a necessity to prevent epidemics from starting. If we found that 80% vaccination rate was enough to protect everyone & we did fine maintaining that, then no problem. But we need somewhere around 95% & too many are opting out putting everyone at risk.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 6, 2015 15:16:23 GMT -5
Yes. But it's a nice thought.
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sam
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Post by sam on Feb 6, 2015 15:18:07 GMT -5
I'm surprised 11 pages later we haven't had any non vaxers (other than those who can't) chime in to help everyone understand their decision.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 6, 2015 15:24:28 GMT -5
I don't think id admit it if I was one.
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sam
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Post by sam on Feb 6, 2015 15:28:45 GMT -5
Do we not know how to play nice?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 6, 2015 15:31:00 GMT -5
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sam
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Post by sam on Feb 6, 2015 15:33:28 GMT -5
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 6, 2015 15:33:58 GMT -5
While it's not an individual person the book I recommended a few pages back does a wonderful job of taking you thru the anti-vax movement from its beginnings to the present.
It was a really interesting book. It was fascinating to read about how the anti-vaccination movement has changed over the centuries. Believe it or not the concept of inoculation is very old, it's not a recent concept. People didn't understand the exact science behind it but they understood it worked and the benefit it had for the individual/society.
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sam
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Post by sam on Feb 6, 2015 15:40:04 GMT -5
Drama: Nothing in the book changed your mind about vaccinating?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 6, 2015 16:01:01 GMT -5
If their choice harms me or mine, yes, I do. If you want to practice voo doo in your own home, whatever. Don't bring it into my life or my childs.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 6, 2015 16:05:57 GMT -5
Then I have the right to practice that belief as long as it has no possibility of harming others. In the privacy of my own home or property.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 6, 2015 16:12:51 GMT -5
Drama: Nothing in the book changed your mind about vaccinating
Nope. I go with the body of literature that is the biggest and has the most support behind it. There are 25+ years of research behind our current vaccinations. When I look up vaccinations on PubMed I get 6,218 pages worth of peer reviewed respected journal publications on the subject.
If you want to convince me that you're right not to vaccinate then you better have a bigger body of literature and it better be of similar quality. Dr. Google, Jenny McCarthy, Suzanne Somers, your best friend's mother doesn't count.
It was interesting to read the "logic" behind a lot of it and it was also interesting to read about how the stats have turned upside down in recent years when it comes to who resists vaccination and why that seems to be the case.
But there wasn't any actual scientific evidence that would convince me to change my mind. Until there is enough peer reviewed published material to overturn 25+ years of research you're not going to convince me.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2015 16:20:00 GMT -5
Unfortunately, it's all I see now. The ones who don't toe the line of vote/poll popularity aren't long for their office. A shortcoming of an aging democratic system of government ? would you consider me a googley eyed optimist if i refuse to give in to that cynicism? Of course not. When I think about politics in general, I seem to be trending into a negative/cynical cycle again. It will pass. Maybe I should turn off the network news for a while.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 6, 2015 16:31:31 GMT -5
It isn't inconsistent at all. As a parent if my kid has a peanut allergy, I'm not demanding the entire school not eat peanut butter. If my child has a medical reason to not be vaccinated, I'm thinking I'm not putting them out in public much anyway, but that's just me. If I feel my child should be in a public school setting, then I'm going to ask that my child be put in a class with children that have no issues with being vaccinated. Most parents are still responsible people. For the rest of the school, well, I'd hope the people whose children can't be medically vaccinated try to make sure they don't interact much if at all, with mine. Those who can be medically vaccinated and choose not to? They can go suck wind as far as I'm concerned. They're a menace to society and should be quarantined for public good.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Feb 6, 2015 17:30:10 GMT -5
So in other words you don't have any problems taking away someone's free choice over their body because you lose personal benefit if they choose the 'wrong way'? Basically what Zib said. Freedom of choice ends when you are risking harm on others. That's why driving drunk is illegal. That's why kids have to ride in car seats even if as a parent you don't believe in car seats.
As far as my personal choices...I can't think of any examples where I would be so self-centered & arrogant to not care that my choices could harm or kill others.
Note - I don't think MOST anti-vax folks are self-centered or arrogant. I think most are misinformed about vaccines & scientifically illiterate.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 6, 2015 17:53:39 GMT -5
Interesting article. Nothing scientific or medical. I am not a scientist, but I am a mother — I know why my son has autismLast week I was surfing the Internet and came across a headline proclaiming autism and circumcision are linked. I couldn’t help myself. I laughed out loud. In no certain order, I have read the following explanations for autism over the years: Autism is caused by mercury. Autism is caused by lead. Autism begins with poor maternal bonding. Certain pesticides may trigger autism. Plastics. Gluten aggravates autism spectrum disorder. People with autism should eat more strawberries. Too much automotive exhaust is a leading cause of autism. Chemicals found on non-stick cookware may trigger autism. The one about maternal bonding is sort of painful for me. The truth is, I did have a hard time bonding with infant Jack. The little guy shrieked and whined and cried for a solid year. He started sleeping through the night at six weeks, and stopped at three months. I am not a scientist, but I am a mother — I know why my son has autism
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Feb 6, 2015 18:03:57 GMT -5
So in other words you don't have any problems taking away someone's free choice over their body because you lose personal benefit if they choose the 'wrong way'? Basically what Zib said. Freedom of choice ends when you are risking harm on others. That's why driving drunk is illegal. That's why kids have to ride in car seats even if as a parent you don't believe in car seats.
As far as my personal choices...I can't think of any examples where I would be so self-centered & arrogant to not care that my choices could harm or kill others.
Note - I don't think MOST anti-vax folks are self-centered or arrogant. I think most are misinformed about vaccines & scientifically illiterate.
Allergies are also totally different. A person has to actually come into contact or even ingest the allergen in order to be affected. I can catch the measles from touching a doorknob without ever seeing the person who left the measles bug on that doorknob. and they might not even know they have been infected as you are contagious 2 to 3 weeks before actually getting sick from it. the issue with allergies like peanuts in schools is the solution is actually just a false sense of security at best. And that to me is actually more dangerous than doing nothing. Put in other words anyone who is counting on the memory and hand washing ability of a bunch of 7-10 year olds to keep their kid alive has a serious screw loose!
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 6, 2015 18:22:53 GMT -5
Did no one jump on virgils claim that tens of millions needed to be not vaccinated? And how that's false. Because it was in 2000/2001 when measles was deemed eradicated in the US. Infection rates have been rising for the last several years, as vaccine rates drop. Herd immunity is already suffering.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 6, 2015 18:36:03 GMT -5
Someone with a peanut allergy (or other serious allergy) can carry an epi pen. There is no equivalent to an epi pen for the diseases for which vaccines have been developed.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Feb 6, 2015 18:38:06 GMT -5
Did no one jump on virgils claim that tens of millions needed to be not vaccinated? And how that's false. Because it was in 2000/2001 when measles was deemed eradicated in the US. Infection rates have been rising for the last several years, as vaccine rates drop. Herd immunity is already suffering. No, no one touched it. Quick math gets me 11 million unvaccinated drops us below the 95% I have always heard for herd immunity. That is after you remove those that are too young to get the vaccine. I have no idea the number of people that can't get vaccinated. Depending on that number you could easily be under 10 million unvaccinated.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 7, 2015 9:44:02 GMT -5
Did no one jump on virgils claim that tens of millions needed to be not vaccinated? And how that's false. Because it was in 2000/2001 when measles was deemed eradicated in the US. Infection rates have been rising for the last several years, as vaccine rates drop. Herd immunity is already suffering. There are 74 million children in America. Herd immunity thresholds range from 75%-94% for MMR, according to Wiki. Ergo herd immunity theoretically breaks down when 4-19 million children aren't vaccinated. I suppose that's "ten of millions" on average, not "tens", but it's not as if the distinction is relevant to the argument. If you dispute these numbers, supply us with your own.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 7, 2015 10:09:23 GMT -5
Did no one jump on virgils claim that tens of millions needed to be not vaccinated? And how that's false. Because it was in 2000/2001 when measles was deemed eradicated in the US. Infection rates have been rising for the last several years, as vaccine rates drop. Herd immunity is already suffering. There are 74 million children in America. Herd immunity thresholds range from 75%-94% for MMR, according to Wiki. Ergo herd immunity theoretically breaks down when 4-19 million children aren't vaccinated. I suppose that's "ten of millions" on average, not "tens", but it's not as if the distinction is relevant to the argument. If you dispute these numbers, supply us with your own. You can't use just child numbers. There are adults that are vectors of the disease as well. In the adult population, those of us that were born before late 1960s had the disease. Those born later got immunized before people got up in arms about vaccines and refused to vaccinate. So this is the second and third generation of adults who are opting their kids out of immunization. Add to this that you have an increasing of adults like Zib's DH who have transplants, adults with autoimmune diseases and cancers and there is probably about 10% of the adult population that CANNOT be immunized as well. Last I heard, there is 300+ million in the US. 10% unvaccinated OR UNIMMUNE due to age and medical reasons is around 30 million. FWIW....a local MAN has just been hospitalized with measles. Childhood diseases affect adults too, and many times with worse repercussions.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 7, 2015 10:38:39 GMT -5
Somebody should point out to this doctor that if everybody in a nation intent on conquest dodged the draft, there would be far fewer conquered nations. Ergo the "ethical" course of action is entirely contingent on whether one believes a conquest is necessary for the prevention of greater injustice.
However, this would imply that rather than trusting the state and having the entire populace uniformly subject to the draft on the leaders' say so, ethical citizens ought to dodge the draft if they deeply believe the war is unjust or unnecessary. And if everyone did this rather than vesting their trust in the good judgment of the nation's leaders, the draft wouldn't actually be a draft.
Finally, in a world where every man categorically refused to take up arms against his brother, there would be no war. Hence we conclude by the principle of universal law that refusing to take up arms is an ethical course of action.
Thus in the span of few sentences we have concluded that dodging the draft is ethical, not dodging the draft is ethical, and conditionally dodging the draft is ethical.
That's one of the reason these ethical postulates fall apart for me. They're mutable based on scope, context, and degree of generality.
The same is true for the ethics of vaccination. If one construes vaccination as "blindly trusting in medical authorities", historical retrospective shows us the evils of many societies that did this, ergo we conclude that not vaccinating our children is the more ethical course of action. The same conclusion follows if we construe vaccination in the same light as circumcision, i.e. violating our children's bodies without their consent, which some people consider grossly unethical. Add in a few more variables, narrow the scope, and our conclusion flips back to vaccination being ethical again. A great exercise in philosophical whimsy, but it's certainly not going to convince people to vaccinate their children.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 7, 2015 10:43:55 GMT -5
There are 74 million children in America. Herd immunity thresholds range from 75%-94% for MMR, according to Wiki. Ergo herd immunity theoretically breaks down when 4-19 million children aren't vaccinated. I suppose that's "ten of millions" on average, not "tens", but it's not as if the distinction is relevant to the argument. If you dispute these numbers, supply us with your own. You can't use just child numbers. There are adults that are vectors of the disease as well. In the adult population, those of us that were born before late 1960s had the disease. Those born later got immunized before people got up in arms about vaccines and refused to vaccinate. So this is the second and third generation of adults who are opting their kids out of immunization. Add to this that you have an increasing of adults like Zib's DH who have transplants, adults with autoimmune diseases and cancers and there is probably about 10% of the adult population that CANNOT be immunized as well. Last I heard, there is 300+ million in the US. 10% unvaccinated OR UNIMMUNE due to age and medical reasons is around 30 million. FWIW....a local MAN has just been hospitalized with measles. Childhood diseases affect adults too, and many times with worse repercussions. I was thinking of public schools, daycares, etc., but if you want to use the greater population, "tens of millions" it is. Take it up with justme. She's the one claiming that herd immunity will break down well before "tens of millions".
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