Kids are Too Young for Age Appropriate Activities?

[giramomma]

So here's an interesting thing that I've been watching in activities my older two kids are in.

The kids are told they are "too young" to do things.

DD1 is in girl scouts. Excited to sell cookies. The parents in charge of the cookie sale won't let the girls do direct sales (give folks cookies on the spot). They have to go to people, take orders, and then deliver the orders after the cookies have arrived. The reasoning given is that 7 year olds aren't old enough to direct sales with their parents shadowing. I'm not sure why the parents have picked a course of action that will take far more work. I'm not sure why a 7 yo is not able to pull a wagon a few blocks at a time with a parent walking a few steps behind...

I went to a scout meeting last night for a troop DS wants to join. The boys aren't leading/in charge. They sit around and wait for the adult to tell them what to do. Every time I challenge why the boy's aren't taking the lead I'm told, "Oh the boys are just too young to learn to lead or be in charge." They are 11 and 12 by the way. And that's pretty much the essence of scouting..that the troop is boy led, not adult led.

I find this fascinating to watch, actually. Particularly with the littlest, she attends a preschool that encourages kids and independence. I not once have said the preschool teacher say "Oh, you are too young to do this or that. You can't do it." I don't hear parents say "No, two year old-3 year old, you are too young to do completely age appropriate things. Sorry."

Let's be clear: I'm not suggesting that my kids do inappropriate things. We don't let them. But my kids can function at a basic level without being told what to do every second. They know better that to sit around and wait for us. We don't really take away their independence, unless we need to. We give our kids enough rope to hang themselves. They haven't yet. When they do, we'll know how much they can handle.  The trend I'm seeing now is that you say "Oh, sorry sweetie, you just can't handle having the rope at all", regardless if the child can or can't.

So when is this shift made?  Do you think it's made in kindy? Why do we spend so much time getting kids independent when they are 2 and 3, and then take it all back when they are school aged?

[Deleted]

I would change troops.  Ours is nothing like that, the boys run everything and the adults are just in the background "oiling the cogs" so to speak. Of course, it sounds like your troop is all very young though.  In ours, the 11-12 year olds are helped along quite a bit, but by the 15-17 year olds.  A Life or Eagle Scout is elected to guide the incoming younger patrol their first year and act as a mentor.  He's the one that keeps them in line in meetings and makes sure they're on track.   

[Wisconsin Beth]

I bet the Girl Scouts aren't visualizing the girls selling door to door either - it's Mom/Dad/Aunt (guilty here) taking the paperwork into work and passing it around.  Then the kid helps bag up the stuff, label it and may be present to delivery at the work place if the school has off that day. 

And I suspect the independence shift happens once the kids are potty trained.  As a parent, I was desperate for the kids to be done potty training.  And dressing themselves.  And sleep/bedtime stuff (still am on this one) but then there are other things I just got used to handling (like cutting food) and somehow my kids are 5 and 6.5 and handing knives over to me at restaurants.  And until last summer, it never occurred to me to have them cut their own hot dogs.  Or make their own PB&J. 

[thyme4change]

Years ago - door to door was all I saw girl scouts doing.  Now, every frickin' weekend I have to tell some adorable 8 year old that I am not going to buy cookies outside of every frickin' grocery store (or whatever group is selling whatever thing.)  I thank the parent that said no to that activity.  I don't care what their reason is.

I also wonder about the fund raising aspect.  I get how it originated, but I really feel that troops in "rich" areas seem to be the most aggressive, and I am not super-excited to subsidize the extra-circular activities of the children of millionaires.  I don't ask them to donate to my daughter's dance troop - or even her school.  I would rather give my money to groups that I know are giving activities and opportunities to children that would otherwise not be able to afford them.  

[milee]

Jan 27, 2015 8:54:59 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

there are other things I just got used to handling (like cutting food) and somehow my kids are 5 and 6.5 and handing knives over to me at restaurants.  And until last summer, it never occurred to me to have them cut their own hot dogs.  Or make their own PB&J. 

  I can't tell if I'm the best parent in the world for encouraging independence at an early age or if that's just a cover for my bone laziness...  by the time each of my boys was 3, they made their own breakfast and snacks.  The only reason I made the lunch and dinner was because I make family meals but they'd help.  Part of that is probably just inborn temperament, though.  Each of them wanted to do their own thing and loved being able to make things.  Heck, at 3 they got such a kick out of it, they'd even make the rest of us breakfast or morning drinks.  When the older one was 3, he loved making his daddy coffee and the younger at 3 made tea.  Both were good at making egg sandwiches (cook egg in a glass ramekin in the microwave while English muffin is toasting, top with cheese and egg).  Yes, they both made a mess and didn't do a great job cleaning it up, but since they were 3 I figured that was part of the deal and OK.

[thyme4change]

Jan 27, 2015 8:54:59 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

 And until last summer, it never occurred to me to have them cut their own hot dogs.  Or make their own PB&J. 

My kids started packing their own lunches in K or 1st grade.  I remember my husband was a little freaked out, that they were too young to do so.  I told him he could stand there and watch them.  Best thing we ever did.  Now I know the kids won't starve to death in a house full of peanut butter and bread.  

[mroped]

I took our son a few times at the Boy Scouts and came out completely dissapointed and somewhat scared!
Was not only the fact that the adults were leading them arround so much that the kids were kinda confused but was also the whole ritual at the beginning and end of their meetings!
Down to the last detail including the handkerchief.

All of it reminded me of growing up in communism going through the same things. And I mean all of them including the uniforms and rituals so it poped into my head that in "the land of free" we are preparing and instructing a small group of nothing else but future communists!

Needles to say that I came home and told my wife that if the kid wants to keep on going she'll have to take him. Luckly he didn't care that much for it and dropped!

Maybe was just the group that operates arround here but I doubt it!

[Deleted]

The rituals have a purpose. It's to instill a sense of brotherhood and camaraderie amongst the boys. You didn't stick with it long enough to see how great scouting can be. The things my son has accomplished through scouting already in just two years is pretty impressive.

I'm a bit biased though.  My Dad has been serving with the council for 35 years and is a huge advocate for the program.  My brother made Eagle at the age of 15. 

[giramomma]

Jan 27, 2015 8:54:59 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

And I suspect the independence shift happens once the kids are potty trained.  As a parent, I was desperate for the kids to be done potty training.  And dressing themselves.  And sleep/bedtime stuff (still am on this one) but then there are other things I just got used to handling (like cutting food) and somehow my kids are 5 and 6.5 and handing knives over to me at restaurants.  And until last summer, it never occurred to me to have them cut their own hot dogs.  Or make their own PB&J. 

It's not just scouts, though.

My kids make their own lunch and know how to clean parts of a house. I don't have to remind them to clear the table after meals. My kids know better than to sit around at breakfast time and wait for me to serve them or start getting breakfast out. We give my kids freedom to roam around the neighborhood as long as we know where they are. They are given freedoms for which activities they join, when they start, when they stop. They are given freedom to read anything as long as it's appropriate. Same thing with clothing.

We give them space to fail. And so far, they haven't. I know they will when they are teens/early adults. I'm expecting it.

We didn't go from encouraging independence to saying "No, sorry, you can no longer learn to take care of yourself, have freedom, "

It seems like parents set the bar so low for kids these days. I guess that's my point. I don't feel like the bar is set particularly high for our children. But every time we do set the bar, they meet it.

[The Captain]

Jan 27, 2015 9:04:42 GMT -5 milee said:

Jan 27, 2015 8:54:59 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

there are other things I just got used to handling (like cutting food) and somehow my kids are 5 and 6.5 and handing knives over to me at restaurants.  And until last summer, it never occurred to me to have them cut their own hot dogs.  Or make their own PB&J. 

  I can't tell if I'm the best parent in the world for encouraging independence at an early age or if that's just a cover for my bone laziness...  by the time each of my boys was 3, they made their own breakfast and snacks.  The only reason I made the lunch and dinner was because I make family meals but they'd help.  Part of that is probably just inborn temperament, though.  Each of them wanted to do their own thing and loved being able to make things.  Heck, at 3 they got such a kick out of it, they'd even make the rest of us breakfast or morning drinks.  When the older one was 3, he loved making his daddy coffee and the younger at 3 made tea.  Both were good at making egg sandwiches (cook egg in a glass ramekin in the microwave while English muffin is toasting, top with cheese and egg).  Yes, they both made a mess and didn't do a great job cleaning it up, but since they were 3 I figured that was part of the deal and OK.

Awww...come on over - we'll fight off social services together!

[Wisconsin Beth]

Jan 27, 2015 9:07:27 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Jan 27, 2015 8:54:59 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

 And until last summer, it never occurred to me to have them cut their own hot dogs.  Or make their own PB&J. 

My kids started packing their own lunches in K or 1st grade.  I remember my husband was a little freaked out, that they were too young to do so.  I told him he could stand there and watch them.  Best thing we ever did.  Now I know the kids won't starve to death in a house full of peanut butter and bread.  

Yeah, I'm working on me and them.  And there was a point when they wanted to help make sandwiches.  And I let them.  I don't know how that got dropped by us.   

[Formerly SK]

I'm guilty of this.  Because DS1 has autism and ADHD, I can't really expect much of him (although I continually try).  But, since I'm always doing everything for him, I didn't think to start having DS2 (18 mo younger) do things independently.  DS2 is 8yo now, and I'm realizing he really needs to get more independent (make his own meals, laundry, etc).  One of my goals this year is get him MUCH more independent.  To this end, I ended bedtimes a couple weeks ago.  Kids have to be in their rooms with the door shut at 8pm.  But they can read as long as they like.  If they read until 11pm, they'll be tired the next day and face the natural consequences.  If they read until 9pm, they'll feel great in the morning.  It has worked out really well with DS2 and I can tell he enjoys the independence/control.  DS1 (as usual) struggles.

[Miss Tequila]

Jan 27, 2015 9:04:17 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Years ago - door to door was all I saw girl scouts doing.  Now, every frickin' weekend I have to tell some adorable 8 year old that I am not going to buy cookies outside of every frickin' grocery store (or whatever group is selling whatever thing.)  I thank the parent that said no to that activity.  I don't care what their reason is.

I also wonder about the fund raising aspect.  I get how it originated, but I really feel that troops in "rich" areas seem to be the most aggressive, and I am not super-excited to subsidize the extra-circular activities of the children of millionaires.  I don't ask them to donate to my daughter's dance troop - or even her school.  I would rather give my money to groups that I know are giving activities and opportunities to children that would otherwise not be able to afford them.  

I don't sell stuff for my kids school or their activities. I always take a buyout because it is MY responsibility to pay for my child's activities, not family/friends/strangers. As such, I absolutely refuse to buy from anyone else's fundraisers....and I get extremely freaking ticked off when I am bombarded by everyone hawking their shit every time I try to enter a store.

[mroped]

Any ritual that is integral part of an organization is in place so it's members follow it without question. That's my problem with it! The definition of it: ritual- follow, don't ask!

doesnt that tell the young ones that is alright to just follow and do what they are told because the one in charge knows better?
I can see that in the military, there is necessary but we have to understand that the military is set up as a hierarchical dictatorship not a democracy or anything that allows you to question!

[Deleted]

The Boy Scouts roots are military.  It was meant to instill the same discipline and self-preservation skills that soldiers received. 

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2015 10:40:12 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

The Boy Scouts roots are military.  It was meant to instill the same discipline and self-preservation skills that soldiers received. 

So were the Hitler Youth and Communist Youth... 

[Tiny]

Jan 27, 2015 10:25:05 GMT -5 mroped said:

Any ritual that is integral part of an organization is in place so it's members follow it without question. That's my problem with it! The definition of it: ritual- follow, don't ask!

doesnt that tell the young ones that is alright to just follow and do what they are told because the one in charge knows better?
I can see that in the military, there is necessary but we have to understand that the military is set up as a hierarchical dictatorship not a democracy or anything that allows you to question!

The kind of ritual you are talking about is everywhere.   Every school kid (in private religious or public) starts the day of school with some kind of 'ritual' - Do kids in grade school still have to start the day with the Pledge of Allegiance (to the Flag)?
I'm pretty sure there's even the morning 'ritual' of taking attendance.  There's plenty of that thru out the day - the lining up to change class rooms, bathroom breaks, the end of the day whatever...
 

[Deleted]

As for the topic at hand, it's one of those weird things I see, making kids do certain things that seem crazy to me, meanwhile not giving them breathing room to make their own decisions and follow their own lead.. I don't know... I don't get it. We were not scout families. But I see it all over.

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2015 10:45:13 GMT -5 oped said:

Jan 27, 2015 10:40:12 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

The Boy Scouts roots are military.  It was meant to instill the same discipline and self-preservation skills that soldiers received. 

So were the Hitler Youth and Communist Youth... 

Yes.  The Boy Scouts is just like them. 

You took your kid to a few meetings and didn't like it.  Fine. It's not for everyone.  But saying it's about turning kids communist is ridiculous. 

[Deleted]

Actually, it's my husband, who grew up in communist Romania, who had flashbacks to young patriot meetings any time he tried to do Boy Scout.

[Deleted]

I wasn't saying it was turning them into communist. What indoctrination turns people into always depends upon those doing the indoctrination... Interesting the methods don't seem to vary that much. 

[Tiny]

So when is this shift made? Do you think it's made in kindy? Why do we spend so much time getting kids independent when they are 2 and 3, and then take it all back when they are school aged?

 
IDK,  I've seen/heard of parents doing their kids homework/projects well into HS... 

[Ryan]

Jan 27, 2015 7:23:27 GMT -5 giramomma said:

So here's an interesting thing that I've been watching in activities my older two kids are in.

The kids are told they are "too young" to do things.

DD1 is in girl scouts. Excited to sell cookies. The parents in charge of the cookie sale won't let the girls do direct sales (give folks cookies on the spot). They have to go to people, take orders, and then deliver the orders after the cookies have arrived. The reasoning given is that 7 year olds aren't old enough to direct sales with their parents shadowing. I'm not sure why the parents have picked a course of action that will take far more work. I'm not sure why a 7 yo is not able to pull a wagon a few blocks at a time with a parent walking a few steps behind...

I went to a scout meeting last night for a troop DS wants to join. The boys aren't leading/in charge. They sit around and wait for the adult to tell them what to do. Every time I challenge why the boy's aren't taking the lead I'm told, "Oh the boys are just too young to learn to lead or be in charge." They are 11 and 12 by the way. And that's pretty much the essence of scouting..that the troop is boy led, not adult led.

I find this fascinating to watch, actually. Particularly with the littlest, she attends a preschool that encourages kids and independence. I not once have said the preschool teacher say "Oh, you are too young to do this or that. You can't do it." I don't hear parents say "No, two year old-3 year old, you are too young to do completely age appropriate things. Sorry."

Let's be clear: I'm not suggesting that my kids do inappropriate things. We don't let them. But my kids can function at a basic level without being told what to do every second. They know better that to sit around and wait for us. We don't really take away their independence, unless we need to. We give our kids enough rope to hang themselves. They haven't yet. When they do, we'll know how much they can handle.  The trend I'm seeing now is that you say "Oh, sorry sweetie, you just can't handle having the rope at all", regardless if the child can or can't.

So when is this shift made?  Do you think it's made in kindy? Why do we spend so much time getting kids independent when they are 2 and 3, and then take it all back when they are school aged?

The way you describe it, I think you're reading too much into things.  Maybe they don't want to order a bunch of cookies that aren't presold and then have to worry about parents trying to return 100 boxes of thin mints that they couldn't unload?  I don't see how they can say they are old enough to sell cookies to be delivered at a later date and not old enough to sell cookies that are sitting in a wagon next to you.  

It's probably better for everyone if you just get the preorders and then you know exactly how many to order.  Maybe they think they are doing you a favor by relieving you of having to sit in front of the grocery store selling your excess cookies.

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2015 10:59:06 GMT -5 Tiny said:

So when is this shift made? Do you think it's made in kindy? Why do we spend so much time getting kids independent when they are 2 and 3, and then take it all back when they are school aged?

 
IDK,  I've seen/heard of parents doing their kids homework/projects well into HS... 

This is my Aunt.  She has been adopting infants up into her 50's.  She has 9 kids and 4 still at home, ages 14, 16, 18 and 40 something (severely disabled).

She does all their homework.  Like all of it.  Writes their reports, does their science projects, all the busy stuff.  I used to give her hell about it and she'd just tell me her goal is just to get them through high school and it wards off Alzheimers (she's 65).  She insisted her kids would do great in college or with whatever they chose to do after high school, but they first needed to pass all this crap. 

Well, so far she's been right.  Of the 5 that have launched only one is struggling, but he has some issues to overcome with being born to a severe drug using mother and having fetal alcohol syndrome.  I think there was some permanent damage done to him before he was even born.  The other 4 are very successful and motivated despite no homework as teenagers.  The 18 year old still at home is amazing.  I talked about him before with all the businesses he's started since he was 10 or 11.  He bought his own car at 17...like nice, newer car...with cash and always is thinking about how he can turn a buck.  Two of her daughters went on to be teachers and both have their masters.  One is in the military and doing well there...

I'm starting to get sold on the homework being a time consuming waste which is why I send my kids to a school that doesn't assign it.  It only goes to 8th grade though.  After that it's going to suck.

 

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

The Girl Scouts have been doing preorder sales like that for years.  That's how I sold with them in the 80s.  It is because of the reason that Ryan pointed out.  There are no "returns" on GS cookies (or you may be only able to return full cases... I ca't remember).  The troops have to pay for whatever they order.  If they presell, they have a better idea how many to order.  They will add a few boxes of cookies for site sales (in front of stores, etc) and hope that they sell all of their cookies.  If not, the leftovers come out of the profits.  

When I sold, the troop made 40 cents per box.  The price of the bix was $2.50 ($1.30 went to the council to pay for camps, workshops, etc).  If you don't do preorders and have 10 cases left over, you are paying $2.10 for each box (12 boxes per case) out of the profit of 40 cents per box you made.  

You can also only buy from the council by the case (12 boxes).  Some cookies don't sell as well (The thin mints sell out quick, the others not so fast).  So, you don't want to be stuck with 11 boxes because you had to break a case and have these extras.

[Deleted]

That is so interesting MPL... I wonder why she didn't just homeschool?

[Wisconsin Beth]

Jan 27, 2015 12:17:42 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Jan 27, 2015 7:23:27 GMT -5 giramomma said:

So here's an interesting thing that I've been watching in activities my older two kids are in.

The kids are told they are "too young" to do things.

DD1 is in girl scouts. Excited to sell cookies. The parents in charge of the cookie sale won't let the girls do direct sales (give folks cookies on the spot). They have to go to people, take orders, and then deliver the orders after the cookies have arrived. The reasoning given is that 7 year olds aren't old enough to direct sales with their parents shadowing. I'm not sure why the parents have picked a course of action that will take far more work. I'm not sure why a 7 yo is not able to pull a wagon a few blocks at a time with a parent walking a few steps behind...

I went to a scout meeting last night for a troop DS wants to join. The boys aren't leading/in charge. They sit around and wait for the adult to tell them what to do. Every time I challenge why the boy's aren't taking the lead I'm told, "Oh the boys are just too young to learn to lead or be in charge." They are 11 and 12 by the way. And that's pretty much the essence of scouting..that the troop is boy led, not adult led.

I find this fascinating to watch, actually. Particularly with the littlest, she attends a preschool that encourages kids and independence. I not once have said the preschool teacher say "Oh, you are too young to do this or that. You can't do it." I don't hear parents say "No, two year old-3 year old, you are too young to do completely age appropriate things. Sorry."

Let's be clear: I'm not suggesting that my kids do inappropriate things. We don't let them. But my kids can function at a basic level without being told what to do every second. They know better that to sit around and wait for us. We don't really take away their independence, unless we need to. We give our kids enough rope to hang themselves. They haven't yet. When they do, we'll know how much they can handle.  The trend I'm seeing now is that you say "Oh, sorry sweetie, you just can't handle having the rope at all", regardless if the child can or can't.

So when is this shift made?  Do you think it's made in kindy? Why do we spend so much time getting kids independent when they are 2 and 3, and then take it all back when they are school aged?

The way you describe it, I think you're reading too much into things.  Maybe they don't want to order a bunch of cookies that aren't presold and then have to worry about parents trying to return 100 boxes of thin mints that they couldn't unload?  I don't see how they can say they are old enough to sell cookies to be delivered at a later date and not old enough to sell cookies that are sitting in a wagon next to you.  

It's probably better for everyone if you just get the preorders and then you know exactly how many to order.  Maybe they think they are doing you a favor by relieving you of having to sit in front of the grocery store selling your excess cookies.

Except I've been told that they now require you to round up to the nearest case.  They're not shipping the exact amount to you. YOu have 333 boxes of Thin Mints ordered for the entire troop and you're getting 28 cases (assuming 12 boxes of cookies to a case) so you'll end up with 336 boxes of Thin Mints. 

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2015 12:30:28 GMT -5 oped said:

That is so interesting MPL... I wonder why she didn't just homeschool?

Not sure.  But she was a nurse and just recently retired. 

Also, even though she just wants to "get them through", she does seem to put a lot of thought into the school choice because the last 4 were in 3 different schools.  One was in the public, two went to a small private Baptist school (uniforms and all) and the other was in a charter. 

[Chocolate Lover]

My big question here is HOW CAN YOU NOT OFFLOAD THIN MINTS?!?!?! 

[Deleted]

My cousin had GS cookies left after last year but we could only buy them by the case.  I didn't want them that bad.