Arguing in front of kids

[midjd]

Do you do it? Avoid it at all costs? Try to avoid and fail? What are the reasons behind your approach?

DH and I grew up in very different households, and I think it shows itself in our approaches to conflict. His parents have been married 30+ years and I don't think have EVER had an argument. DH tends to shut down at the first hint of conflict, and will obsess over a relatively minor disagreement for hours.

My parents fought constantly until they divorced when I was 14. (I was going through some old boxes upstairs and found a story I'd written for school in 4th grade where I described in great detail the time my dad kicked my mom out of the car on our vacation ). Although I think that level of conflict is not healthy for children, it did give me some perspective (and some "what not to do"s for my own marriage). 

I don't think children should regularly be exposed to screaming fights between their parents, or even frequent non-screaming arguments/bickering. But I do think there is some merit to the idea that we have to teach kids to "fight" fairly. It seems important for kids to realize that sometimes parents disagree, and sometimes their friends, coworkers, future spouses will disagree with them, but this isn't the end of the world and you can work through it. What's your take?

[yogiii]

Avoid and fail

Typically they're short arguments but what we do I apologize to each other in front of the kids and then apologize to the kids themselves and explain that mommy or daddy was having a rough day and that everyone has rough days sometimes, it's ok to be upset but it isn't nice to take it out on people.

[yogiii]

and you know what, I'll admit, it's usually mommy that's having the rough day.  Things are much more calm when people sleep through the night!  A lot of my little outburst are simply due to pure exhaustion, feeling overwhelmed.  They aren't really marriage problems, so I think it depends on what the argument is stemming from.

[Shooby]

I think that you should argue SOME in front of the kids. To pretend to never have disagreements is setting up a false reality. And, it is healthy for them to see you fight and then resolve it and move on and understand that just because you have a disagreement and get mad at each other, it isn't the end of the world.  And explain, sometimes daddy and I get mad at each. And, sometimes you get mad at your brother or friends and that isn't the end of the world, doesn't mean we don't all love each other and no a disagreement does not mean anyone is getting a divorce.

However, if you have a lot of nasty, intense fights, name calling, screaming, throwing things, etc, then yes you need to think how that is affecting your kids, even if you try to hide it. You really can't hide that kind of fighting anyway so the notion that you are doing that in front of your kids is nonsense unless you live in a 20,000 sq foot house. Kids deserve to have peace in their home and not always be walking on eggshells. But, some disagreement is healthy.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I don't think the way my parents fought in front of us was appropriate, lots of yelling/screaming, sometimes throwing things and threats of divorce.

That being said we did always see them make-up afterwards. They've been married for 32 years. So while their method of conflict resolution was terrible I did take away that no matter how mad DH and I get at each other we can work thru it.

We don't fight like that around Gwen, we both agree that isn't appropriate.

DH's parents don't fight. They sit on everything and passive aggressively talk about each other behind their backs. I DEFINETLY don't want Gwen picking up that it is OK to be dismissed and then have your spouse talk about you behind your back.

They're also very old fashioned in that FIL's word is law. I don't want her learning that either, this isn't 1950. I want her to understand she has a right to her own voice and should exercise it.

I can't say we're the perfect models of conflict resolution when you consider our backgrounds. We have argued in front of her and argued loudly at times. If she gets upset we bring her into it and explain that mommy/daddy disagree sometimes and that's OK. We also let her know when we've made up.

I don't want to hide it and have her get the idea that we are somehow perfect. I don't want her thinking later on there is something wrong the first time she fights with her spouse. I also don't want to hide things from her only to spring that we're getting a divorce after years of quietly building up resentment.

Human beings don't always agree with each other and sometimes pretty passionately. That doesn't mean we're bad people. What is important is that DH and I eventually work out our problems.

That's what I want her to learn.

[The Captain]

Jan 22, 2015 10:25:55 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I don't think the way my parents fought in front of us was appropriate, lots of yelling/screaming, sometimes throwing things and threats of divorce.

That being said we did always see them make-up afterwards. They've been married for 32 years. So while their method of conflict resolution was terrible I did take away that no matter how mad DH and I get at each other we can work thru it.

We don't fight like that around Gwen, we both agree that isn't appropriate.

DH's parents don't fight. They sit on everything and passive aggressively talk about each other behind their backs. I DEFINETLY don't want Gwen picking up that it is OK to be dismissed and then have your spouse talk about you behind your back.

They're also very old fashioned in that FIL's word is law. I don't want her learning that either, this isn't 1950. I want her to understand she has a right to her own voice and should exercise it.

I can't say we're the perfect models of conflict resolution when you consider our backgrounds. We have argued in front of her and argued loudly at times. If she gets upset we bring her into it and explain that mommy/daddy disagree sometimes and that's OK. We also let her know when we've made up.

I don't want to hide it and have her get the idea that we are somehow perfect. I don't want her thinking later on there is something wrong the first time she fights with her spouse. I also don't want to hide things from her only to spring that we're getting a divorce after years of quietly building up resentment.

Human beings don't always agree with each other and sometimes pretty passionately. That doesn't mean we're bad people. What is important is that DH and I eventually work out our problems.

That's what I want her to learn.

I started to type my post then realized you and I were almost a match.

I think it's important to argue in front of your kids for the above reasons.  In addition, it's important to teach your kids the right way to have an argument/practice conflict resolution.

DH and I, when we do argue, fight fair.  There are rules and part of the process is resolving the item you're arguing about. No this didn't come naturally, it took many sessions with a marriage therapist to figure it out.

Even after 10+ years of "practice" it still takes work, a lot of it.

[Deleted]

Ok, you don't want to scream and throw things all the time. But I think its essential people argue in front of their kids. My friends husband honestly thinks his parents had a relationship like the 50s shows he loves... He is always nostalgic for a different age which, no matter how much we talk he doesn't see never really existed. They never disagreed in front of him and it set up wildly unrealistic expectations.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

There are rules and part of the process is resolving the item you're arguing about. No this didn't come naturally, it took many sessions with a marriage therapist to figure it out

Yeah we're still working on that. It's HARD when you have absolutely no one to draw on for examples. We've had to figure out how to fight fair from scratch.

They don't pick up on it now but I always ask myself when fighting with DH if what I am about to say is something I won't be able to take back.

Like my parents would always yell the D word at each other. I don't do that with DH, if I utter that word it is because I am actually considering it and it has to be a situation serious enough to warrant it. I cringe during thread discussions where female posters scream that the OP better divorce because the spouse doesn't do the dishes or whatever. You don't say the word "divorce" unless you actually plan to walk, it should never be a threat used to coerce your spouse into cooperating/agreeing with you.

I also never issue ultimatums either when we fight. There is no dramatic "If you don't X I'll (insert threat here". I save those for very serious situations, like DH's relapse for example.  To me arguing like that needs to  be left behind on the  playground/HS locker room.  You never issue ultimatums unless you're ready for the person you are disagreeing with to call your bluff and then you have to follow thru.   Endless threatening your spouse doesn't solve anything.

[Deleted]

We don't argue much at all, but any disagreements are handled in private. Granted we only have nephews visiting occasionally but I wouldn't argue in front of them. I grew up in a dog eat dog, bickering household, DW was the opposite.

[travelnut11]

Jan 22, 2015 10:32:11 GMT -5 oped said:

Ok, you don't want to scream and throw things all the time. But I think its essential people argue in front of their kids. My friends husband honestly thinks his parents had a relationship like the 50s shows he loves... He is always nostalgic for a different age which, no matter how much we talk he doesn't see never really existed. They never disagreed in front of him and it set up wildly unrealistic expectations.

I totally agree with this.  My boyfriend in college never saw his parents fight or argue and as such he didn't handle disagreement/arguments very well.  I'm sure his parents had these issues they just never did in front of their kids and I think it did him a huge disservice.  I think it's important for kids to understand that disagreements happen but also to model good conflict resolution.  Violent and physical fights (which shouldn't be happening anyway among mature adults) are a definite no-no however.

[Lizard Queen]

Hmm. DH and I never really argue. Should I pick a fight with him for the kids sake?

[gs11rmb]

I avoid arguing in front of the children but my DH does not - it makes it difficult!  I am naturally conflict averse but will stand up for myself, so it's hard trying to defuse a situation so the girls don't overhear without coming off as weak.  I'm at a bit of a loss how to resolve this situation.

[yogiii]

Jan 22, 2015 10:42:09 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Hmm. DH and I never really argue. Should I pick a fight with him for the kids sake?

You need your sleep interrupted more.  It does wonders for the mental state

[tloonya]

Our DD used to laugh her ass off when we were arguing. IDK, should we stop and take fun away from her?

We do not argue anymore, she says we are 'different' from her friend's parents because it seems like all of them
hate each other. Should I tell her we just living in apathy and don't give a damn anymore?

[giramomma]

We were pretty bad with inappropriate fighting when DS was little. But our marriage was dysfunctional. I'm just thankful that he was too young to remember it. (He doesn't remember anything before he was 3).

Now we're much better. But, if I don't take care of myself, it's very easy for me to fall back into old habits. Money right now is the huge trigger.

DH thinks we might need a new water heater, because you know, we haven't bled enough money over the past two years. That was good for a fight Monday night.  And yes, the kids heard. And yes, I apologized, saying that my coping skills were poor at that moment. And yes, in hindsight I was embarrassed.

DH and I really don't disagree on much of anything. I mean, I know we do, but it's mostly on petty shit that really doesn't make a difference. We just don't have the energy to "discuss" things at that level anymore.

I also purposefully chose DH because we agreed on the major things: money, sex, parenting, religion, and lifestyle. I figure once you get all the biggies down, the rest doesn't really matter.

Once DH and I got ourselves into functional human beings (instead of dysfunctional ones), actually, for the most part, our marriage has been pretty easy.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

You need your sleep interrupted more. It does wonders for the mental state

I'm so glad we got a sleeper this time around.

We were so sleep deprived with Gwen that we almost got in a fist fight over whether or not I had washed his underwear.

[tloonya]

Jan 22, 2015 11:03:36 GMT -5 yogiii said:

Jan 22, 2015 10:42:09 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Hmm. DH and I never really argue. Should I pick a fight with him for the kids sake?

You need your sleep interrupted more.  It does wonders for the mental state

Sure! And if you'll get physical they will get more kick out of it

[Bob Ross]

I like to argue in front of kids.

Like they'll say that the new Call of Duty is rad, and then I'll say it sucks, and they'll say "does not", and I'll say "does so" and this goes on for a bit until I end up taking their lunch money because I'm bigger than they are.

Speaking of which, what's the best way to invest a bunch of spare change?

[midjd]

Jan 22, 2015 10:51:33 GMT -5 @tbird said:

Jan 22, 2015 10:17:36 GMT -5 midjd said:

Do you do it? Avoid it at all costs? Try to avoid and fail? What are the reasons behind your approach?

DH and I grew up in very different households, and I think it shows itself in our approaches to conflict. His parents have been married 30+ years and I don't think have EVER had an argument. DH tends to shut down at the first hint of conflict, and will obsess over a relatively minor disagreement for hours.

My parents fought constantly until they divorced when I was 14. (I was going through some old boxes upstairs and found a story I'd written for school in 4th grade where I described in great detail the time my dad kicked my mom out of the car on our vacation ). Although I think that level of conflict is not healthy for children, it did give me some perspective (and some "what not to do"s for my own marriage). 

I don't think children should regularly be exposed to screaming fights between their parents, or even frequent non-screaming arguments/bickering. But I do think there is some merit to the idea that we have to teach kids to "fight" fairly. It seems important for kids to realize that sometimes parents disagree, and sometimes their friends, coworkers, future spouses will disagree with them, but this isn't the end of the world and you can work through it. What's your take?

a lack of agreement (disagreement) is different than a fight. I don't think people should fight in front of their kids, to discuss a point of disagreement calmly, that may be useful.

To me there are a few levels.

Fight = yelling/screaming, tears, possibly throwing objects, threats of divorce, etc.
Argument = semi-raised voices, high emotions but ability for one/both to walk away before it turns into a fight and return when things have cooled down.
Disagreement = calm voices, "I" statements, etc.

By these standards, DH and I have not had a fight since before we were married. We argue two or three times a year. We disagree maybe once a month.

I guess I'm trying to evaluate whether it's OK for DD to witness arguments, or if only calm disagreements are the way to go. One of the things that has helped my marriage immensely is to just walk away when I can sense my temper rising or think I might say something I'll regret -- I think learning to do this could be of use to DD (especially as she seems to have inherited my temper). But I really don't know. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I don't know if you can really say what is best. You'd think with the way my parents fought I should have grown up to be a serial killer or something.

I did learn I do not want to be like that with my spouse and we took steps to learn better habits in marital counseling.

And there is a lot I value about my parents marriage. They've put each other thru a lot crap and yet they are still married to each other after 32 years. They aren't in separate beds or hating each others guts either, they are still very much in love with each other.

It's part of what made me fight so hard for my marriage even though nobody could blame if me if I walked. If my parents could make it 32 years I wasn't throwing in the towel after just a couple.

[Firebird]

Interesting thread... I don't mind Babybird seeing us argue, as long as the following conditions are met:

1.  We are fighting fair, no yelling or personal insults.  I very much mind her hearing us scream at each other (luckily that's pretty rare these days) or saying mean things in any tone of voice. "Shut up," for example, is a super triggering phrase for me. I pretty much shut down when I hear it (in a really, really bad way) and I flat out will not allow it to be said in my house. It's off-limits.  I don't even like to hear it in a joking context.  If it gets said in a fight, then we're way past the point where I want her listening. 

2.  The subject of the argument is appropriate for her.  A lot of fights, especially ones that center around marital issues, are not appropriate for kids to hear no matter how calmly you're arguing.  Too easy to misinterpret stuff that is really none of their business anyway.  There are a handful of subjects I will only discuss with DH, full stop.  They are too personal to talk about with anyone else, even friends, and certainly way too confusing/upsetting for my daughter to hear about during her childhood (if ever).    

3.  We are not arguing about her.  Related to the second one, I am not a fan of kids hearing their parents argue about things that pertain directly to them, like discipline or school issues.  It can give the impression that a) you are a source of conflict/anger for your parents, which can be very stressful to kids, and/or b) it's possible to divide and conquer your parents if one is on "your" side and one isn't.  Both featured heavily in my childhood and both, in my opinion, are bad. 

[giramomma]

Jan 22, 2015 11:13:53 GMT -5 midjd said:

I guess I'm trying to evaluate whether it's OK for DD to witness arguments, or if only calm disagreements are the way to go. One of the things that has helped my marriage immensely is to just walk away when I can sense my temper rising or think I might say something I'll regret -- I think learning to do this could be of use to DD (especially as she seems to have inherited my temper). But I really don't know. 

One thing I have noticed on my journey is that I need time to process. If I'm given the time to process, generally, I'm fine.

DH hasn't yet gotten used to this "new" aspect of me (we've been together for almost 20 years, this behavior is 5ish years old). He likes to push when something is bothering me. I find this aggravating and tell him to buzz off so I can process and go about my way.

It isn't about saying something I might regret or cooling down. It's about understanding why I'm feeling the way I'm feeling in the context of the situation and deciding what the real issue is.

DH's therapist told me that anger is a secondary emotion. 

DD2 is a tantrum thrower. Most of the time, though, it's because her needs aren't being met. So we might say "I know you are tired because you missed your nap today, but you cannot scream because you don't want to drink milk out of that cup. You could instead nicely ask for a different cup."

[yogiii]

By your definitions, we've never fought but do have more arguments than I'd like and yes, sometimes they are in front of the kids.  I feel like acknowledging that it happened, apologizing but otherwise leading a happy life isn't going to permanently harm them (I can let you know in 16 or so years).   However, it's probably frequency dependent too ... this isn't happening daily in our house and it isn't happening over big issues like affairs, money, equality of household chore contribution.  It's mostly just stupid stuff.  IMO, the most damaging stuff would be belittling your spouse etc, in front of your kids.  And that can be done without an argument.

[Firebird]

I guess I'm trying to evaluate whether it's OK for DD to witness arguments, or if only calm disagreements are the way to go. One of the things that has helped my marriage immensely is to just walk away when I can sense my temper rising or think I might say something I'll regret -- I think learning to do this could be of use to DD (especially as she seems to have inherited my temper). But I really don't know.

I suck at this.  And I agree that it's a good skill to learn.  So I think your instinct is good.  Especially if you talk to her later and put it in context.  Maybe something like "Sometimes people get very, very angry and say things they don't mean to people they love.  When you feel yourself getting very angry and you don't want to hurt someone with angry words, it's okay to walk away and calm down instead." 

Thinking about it more, isn't this why we give toddlers time outs?  Walking away is just the grown up version of a time out.  Not at all a bad thing.  At least in my house, we try not to make time outs a "punishment" (we're not strictly against punishment the way some parents are, we just think two is a little bit young to put the cause and effect together), but more like a cooling off period when Babybird is screaming and not in any shape to listen.  The way I usually put it is "You're not allowed to speak to me and Daddy that way.  As soon as you feel calm and you can use your words, you can come back downstairs and continue [x activity]."   

[The Captain]

Jan 22, 2015 10:42:09 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Hmm. DH and I never really argue. Should I pick a fight with him for the kids sake?

No, you pick a fight with him so you can...make up later.

Duh! 

[dancinmama]

I'm guessing that your DH under no circumstances wants to argue in front of the kids and that the two of you are having a disagreement about that.

[Tiny]

I don't think children should regularly be exposed to screaming fights between their parents, or even frequent non-screaming arguments/bickering. But I do think there is some merit to the idea that we have to teach kids to "fight" fairly. It seems important for kids to realize that sometimes parents disagree, and sometimes their friends, coworkers, future spouses will disagree with them, but this isn't the end of the world and you can work through it. What's your take?

I agree with this.  I think parents don't realize that HOW they 'fight' or handle disagreements influences how their kids will most likely wind up doing the exact same thing.   Mostly because I suspect parents use the exact same strategies/behaviors when they 'fight' or handle disagreements with their kids as they use with their spouse. 

That said, I came from a family that used yelling/screaming (and then the silent treatment) to settle disagreements - who ever gave in 'lost'.    OK, for the record, my older siblings didn't see quite as much of this as I did.  They MAY have had the 'kinder gentler' parents - who didn't get on each others nerves just by being in the same room together...   I don't remember any actual hitting... lots of threats of physical stuff - but to my knowledge none happened... not sure what my older siblings witnessed (by the time I came to be my parents were older so my memories of childhood are with parents in their 50s who may have been too tired or too drunk to actually throw punches).

I spent time (stayed with) one of my sibs and his wife and their adult kids.   OMG!  My neices and nephews deal with conflict the same way their parents do... sometimes right down to the body language and facial expressions.   My sib - uses the 'might makes right'  or maybe it's the "who ever has the last word is RIGHT"  format - no physical voilence just the need to out yell or force the other person to give in no matter what to 'win' the arguement (winning is important even if you are wrong or  what you want to do is stupid, expensive, damaging, or in general NOT the best solution <-- thanks Mom and Dad!!)  My SIL using the "fine! I'm not talking to you!!" method to combat this.   You can't 'lose' if you don't say anything I guess... They squable for days at a time.     I see their kids use the same strategies.   I suspect that's how this stuff keeps happening in each generation...
 

I like to think I became aware of my poor social skills sometimes after college (when I realized it wasn't me... it was my abilities/inabilities/poor behavioral skills   as to why other people seemed to successfully navigate disagreements and I could not)  and I started trying to model the skills I saw other people use.  Let me tell you... it's really really really HARD to change one's own behaviors.  Especially when they've become 'defaults' that you do without even thinking.     

Meant to add - my mother use to use the Silent Treatment with me - but I was too clueless to know this.   I always thought it was nice that she wasn't screaming at me  - and that everything must be ok- so I happily went about entertaining myself  without much interaction with her and thought everything was fine.  

 

[midjd]

Jan 22, 2015 11:29:20 GMT -5 dancinmama said:

I'm guessing that your DH under no circumstances wants to argue in front of the kids and that the two of you are having a disagreement about that.

No -- it's not a subject we've ever really tackled. DD is 13 months old so still a little young to get much out of our discussions (although I'm sure she picks up on happy/sad/worried/etc.). I just thought it could be an interesting topic to pose to YM.

[Formerly SK]

Jan 22, 2015 10:42:09 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Hmm. DH and I never really argue. Should I pick a fight with him for the kids sake?

  I think DH and I have raised our voices to each other maybe 5x in the 15 years we've been together.  That's not to say we don't occasionally disagree, but we don't get hyper emotional about it - we just talk through the issue to find a logical compromise.  I have no idea if our kids are aware of when we have these discussions, but I don't see how we are ruining them by not yelling at each other.  

[Firebird]

I feel like acknowledging that it happened, apologizing but otherwise leading a happy life isn't going to permanently harm them (I can let you know in 16 or so years).

Oh yeah, that's a good point.  Listening to parents yell is really frightening for kids.  It would have made a huge difference for me as a kid to hear something like "I am sorry for yelling and scaring you.  Sometimes adults get angry and say things they don't mean, but it is not okay for me to yell like that.  I will try not to do it again."  Even every once in awhile would have been better than nothing. 

Otherwise you just grow up with the idea that adults are wildly unpredictable and can fly off the handle at any time for any reason and there's nothing you can do about it.