djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 8, 2015 19:35:49 GMT -5
take your pick. most acts of terrorism have been committed by non-Muslims. I would argue that a lot of the extreme radical/terrorist groups, including ISIS, use religion as a kind of moral disquise to cloak their true intention - global anarchy. Maybe the leaders of their group started out with some kind of religious agenda, but at this point, these are disgruntled young people who feel they got the wrong end of the stick, and they've decided to blow shit up and kill people just for the fun of it. Religion is just their weak justification for doing it. one could argue that the Tamil Tigers were essentially a group of MARXIST radicals. the fact that they were not Muslims was kinda irrelevant. but then again, i think this same argument could be made in the case of most extremists. religion actually has little to do with suicide bombings, except to establish differences between the terrorist and the object of their terrorism. it can be ethnic, racial, religious, or economic.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 8, 2015 19:37:41 GMT -5
I am quoting you just so I can like your comment again! It blows my mind that people are using THIS as a Pro-gun rally cry. France has to worry about terrorist shootings. America has to worry about terrorist attacks AND Americans shooting the shit out of each other. There's no evidence to indicate that Americans are "shooting the shit out each other". And if they are, then it's clearly a problem of inequality of gun distribution- we need to get those people some guns so they will stop shooting the shit out of each other! And no. I'm not kidding. That really is the solution: www.examiner.com/article/two-new-studies-confirm-gun-control-s-worst-nightmare-more-guns-less-crimei don't know if it occurred to anyone that this analysis is overly simplistic, but it is.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2015 19:41:32 GMT -5
I would argue that a lot of the extreme radical/terrorist groups, including ISIS, use religion as a kind of moral disquise to cloak their true intention - global anarchy. Maybe the leaders of their group started out with some kind of religious agenda, but at this point, these are disgruntled young people who feel they got the wrong end of the stick, and they've decided to blow shit up and kill people just for the fun of it. Religion is just their weak justification for doing it. one could argue that the Tamil Tigers were essentially a group of MARXIST radicals. the fact that they were not Muslims was kinda irrelevant. but then again, i think this same argument could be made in the case of most extremists. religion actually has little to do with suicide bombings, except to establish differences between the terrorist and the object of their terrorism. it can be ethnic, racial, religious, or economic. Are the terrorists not using religion to establish differences between them and the object of their terrorism?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 8, 2015 19:44:32 GMT -5
one could argue that the Tamil Tigers were essentially a group of MARXIST radicals. the fact that they were not Muslims was kinda irrelevant. but then again, i think this same argument could be made in the case of most extremists. religion actually has little to do with suicide bombings, except to establish differences between the terrorist and the object of their terrorism. it can be ethnic, racial, religious, or economic. Are the terrorists not using religion to establish differences between them and the object of their terrorism? it is generally one component, yes. it works just as well when one is Buddhist and the target is Hindu, or one is Catholic and the other Protestant, or one is Muslim and the other Jewish. but it is only one component. sometimes (not often, but sometimes) it is not even there. IE- Muslims in Egypt carried out terrorism campaigns against Muslims in the last 30 years because they weren't "Muslim enough". edit: i prefer to describe this difference as "OTHERNESS". that covers most of the ground.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2015 19:48:30 GMT -5
Are the terrorists not using religion to establish differences between them and the object of their terrorism? it is generally one component, yes. it works just as well when one is Buddhist and the target is Hindu, or one is Catholic and the other Protestant, or one is Muslim and the other Jewish. but it is only one component. sometimes (not often, but sometimes) it is not even there. IE- Muslims in Egypt carried out terrorism campaigns against Muslims in the last 30 years because they weren't "Muslim enough". edit: i prefer to describe this difference as "OTHERNESS". that covers most of the ground. That's the criteria they are using to define themselves. I'll take their word and use the same criteria.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 8, 2015 19:51:11 GMT -5
it is generally one component, yes. it works just as well when one is Buddhist and the target is Hindu, or one is Catholic and the other Protestant, or one is Muslim and the other Jewish. but it is only one component. sometimes (not often, but sometimes) it is not even there. IE- Muslims in Egypt carried out terrorism campaigns against Muslims in the last 30 years because they weren't "Muslim enough". edit: i prefer to describe this difference as "OTHERNESS". that covers most of the ground. That's the criteria they are using to define themselves. I'll take their word and use the same criteria.
sure, but my point (and Pape's) is that this is a problem with radicalism, not Islam, particularly. and i firmly believe he is right.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 8, 2015 19:51:18 GMT -5
France has ceded control of entire neighborhoods to terrorists. Say what you will about America's own cultural suicide, even our illegal alien friends wouldn't put up with that shit. Yes, France has other big problems, Virgil Showlion , but you can diminish every problem by using a chart. If I've got a golf ball sized tumor in my head, I could say it's not that bad because there's a grapefruit sized tumor in my chest. The reality is that radical islam may not be "that bad a problem", but it's a deadly problem and it's got to be dealt with. You could even surmise that it is contributing to the economic destabilization.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 8, 2015 19:53:15 GMT -5
France has ceded control of entire neighborhoods to terrorists. Say what you will about America's own cultural suicide, even our illegal alien friends wouldn't put up with that shit. Yes, France has other big problems, Virgil Showlion , but you can diminish every problem by using a chart. If I've got a golf ball sized tumor in my head, I could say it's not that bad because there's a grapefruit sized tumor in my chest. The reality is that radical islam may not be "that bad a problem", but it's a deadly problem and it's got to be dealt with. You could even surmise that it is contributing to the economic destabilization. i have no intention of diminishing France's problems, for the record. nor our own. we are facing great challenges, one and all. most of them have nothing to do with gun control or radical Islam, however.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 8:23:18 GMT -5
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Post by Value Buy on Jan 9, 2015 8:27:51 GMT -5
Yep, a mod and a Californian going off the end of the pier, ignoring the actual discussion.
Now the police person who was killed the night of the attack is acknowledged to have been killed in a related shooting when France decided to originally say it was not connected. Now we have KOSHER GROCERY STORE IN HOSTAGE SITUATION where the person says release the two TERRORISTS held up in the printing company........ I wonder if this printing company printed the magazine? Too much of a coincidence? Two people dead in the store
Another liberal apologist on MSNBC this morning said it was the magazine that caused the slaughter. They printed vulgar cartoons, trying to inflame Jihadists.
It was Mika's father. Now, suddenly, they seem to not be interviewing him anymore this morning
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 9, 2015 8:30:36 GMT -5
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 9, 2015 8:33:52 GMT -5
The formula is very simple: Find jihadis = kill jihadis. If we can get information from them, or use them in some way- great; otherwise, there's no need to keep them around.
We didn't win WWII arresting and trying Germans, Japanese, and Italians one by one.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 9:16:10 GMT -5
New York Times Reports On Muslim Proselytizing During Charlie Hebdo Attack, Then Deletes It Here’s the latest example of the New York Times censoring itself to avoid offending Muslims after an act of Islamic terror. This morning, BenK at Ace of Spades quoted an NYT story by Liz Alderman titled “Survivors Retrace a Scene of Horror at Charlie Hebdo.” Take note of these two paragraphs from that story:
Sigolène Vinson, a freelancer who had decided to come in that morning to take part in the meeting, thought she would be killed when one of the men approached her. Instead, she told French news media, the man said, “I’m not going to kill you because you’re a woman, we don’t kill women, but you must convert to Islam, read the Quran and cover yourself,” she recalled I was intrigued by this quote, and it seemed worth exploring, so I went to the NYT story to quote it. But guess what? Here’s what it says now: Instead of pulling the trigger, though, he told her she would not be killed because she was a woman. “Don’t be afraid, calm down, I won’t kill you,” the gunman told her in a steady voice, with a calm look in his eyes, she recalled. “You are a woman. But think about what you’re doing. It’s not right.” Nothing about telling her to convert to Islam. Nothing about telling her to read the Quran. Nothing about telling her to cover her face. dailycaller.com/2015/01/08/new-york-times-reports-on-muslim-proselytizing-during-charlie-hebdo-attack-then-deletes-it/
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 9, 2015 9:27:03 GMT -5
New York Times Reports On Muslim Proselytizing During Charlie Hebdo Attack, Then Deletes It Here’s the latest example of the New York Times censoring itself to avoid offending Muslims after an act of Islamic terror. This morning, BenK at Ace of Spades quoted an NYT story by Liz Alderman titled “Survivors Retrace a Scene of Horror at Charlie Hebdo.” Take note of these two paragraphs from that story:
Sigolène Vinson, a freelancer who had decided to come in that morning to take part in the meeting, thought she would be killed when one of the men approached her. Instead, she told French news media, the man said, “I’m not going to kill you because you’re a woman, we don’t kill women, but you must convert to Islam, read the Quran and cover yourself,” she recalled I was intrigued by this quote, and it seemed worth exploring, so I went to the NYT story to quote it. But guess what? Here’s what it says now: Instead of pulling the trigger, though, he told her she would not be killed because she was a woman. “Don’t be afraid, calm down, I won’t kill you,” the gunman told her in a steady voice, with a calm look in his eyes, she recalled. “You are a woman. But think about what you’re doing. It’s not right.” Nothing about telling her to convert to Islam. Nothing about telling her to read the Quran. Nothing about telling her to cover her face. dailycaller.com/2015/01/08/new-york-times-reports-on-muslim-proselytizing-during-charlie-hebdo-attack-then-deletes-it/ Meh. It's not about islam. They're just random mass killers. ANYONE could do this at ANY time. We can't focus on some imaginary threat stemming from islam, we have to fear everyone instead. It just makes sense.
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 9, 2015 9:29:40 GMT -5
Let's try an experiment:
Day 1: Wear a plain white t-shirt that reads in plain, not overly bold or large print: "Islam is wrong" across the front of it. Day 2: Wear a similar shirt that reads "Christianity is wrong".
I'll tell you what will happen on day 2: nothing. Because you'll be killed on day 1.
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 9, 2015 9:34:11 GMT -5
Yep, a mod and a Californian going off the end of the pier, ignoring the actual discussion.
Now the police person who was killed the night of the attack is acknowledged to have been killed in a related shooting when France decided to originally say it was not connected. Now we have KOSHER GROCERY STORE IN HOSTAGE SITUATION where the person says release the two TERRORISTS held up in the printing company........ I wonder if this printing company printed the magazine? Too much of a coincidence? Two people dead in the store
Another liberal apologist on MSNBC this morning said it was the magazine that caused the slaughter. They printed vulgar cartoons, trying to inflame Jihadists.
It was Mika's father. Now, suddenly, they seem to not be interviewing him anymore this morning I have a friend in Bourdeau right now. He says that there is every reason to believe that this is a large scale, well planned, multi-pronged coordinated islamic military-style attack. He states that this is not the Boston bombing, or even 9/11- but worse. He thinks the objective is to actually occupy France and that this is stage one- distraction and spreading thin the resources. I have had two conversations with him- and I've stated that I actually disagree- but that this is definitely bigger than a one-off, lone-wolf attack. I've also held that islamists are notoriously delusional, so perhaps they actually think this is what my friend thinks. We'll see.
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Post by Value Buy on Jan 9, 2015 11:11:43 GMT -5
Looks like the police are storming the printing company building. Three distinct flashes and smoke rising from the side of the building, one person on roof above.
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Post by Value Buy on Jan 9, 2015 11:14:19 GMT -5
Now we have shooting and explosions at the Kosher grocery store
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Post by chiver78 on Jan 9, 2015 11:15:46 GMT -5
the "trending stories" on the right side of my FB news feed has links reporting two dead at that grocery store.
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Post by Value Buy on Jan 9, 2015 11:17:40 GMT -5
the "trending stories" on the right side of my FB news feed has links reporting two dead at that grocery store. fyi, that was reported hours ago
Looks like the police initiated simultaneous attacks at both locations.
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Post by chiver78 on Jan 9, 2015 11:20:19 GMT -5
was it? I missed that....was stuck trying to get back home in the snow.
our local news has been flipping back and forth between this stuff (as news breaks) and coverage of the press conference for the USOC picking Boston for the 2024 Summer Games bid.
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Post by Value Buy on Jan 9, 2015 11:23:33 GMT -5
was it? I missed that....was stuck trying to get back home in the snow. our local news has been flipping back and forth between this stuff (as news breaks) and coverage of the press conference for the USOC picking Boston for the 2024 Summer Games bid. I have kept CNN ON, but all local stations are now carrying a national feed of the situation
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Post by chiver78 on Jan 9, 2015 11:25:48 GMT -5
yup, here too. I would have kept a news channel on, but my BIL would have whined about it. I'm not turning the channel now...
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 9, 2015 11:42:34 GMT -5
Let's try an experiment: Day 1: Wear a plain white t-shirt that reads in plain, not overly bold or large print: "Islam is wrong" across the front of it. Day 2: Wear a similar shirt that reads "Christianity is wrong". I'll tell you what will happen on day 2: nothing. Because you'll be killed on day 1. how much do you want to bet? just name your sum, and i will print the shirts.
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Post by Value Buy on Jan 9, 2015 11:51:13 GMT -5
Let's try an experiment: Day 1: Wear a plain white t-shirt that reads in plain, not overly bold or large print: "Islam is wrong" across the front of it. Day 2: Wear a similar shirt that reads "Christianity is wrong". I'll tell you what will happen on day 2: nothing. Because you'll be killed on day 1. how much do you want to bet? just name your sum, and i will print the shirts. that is what some here, would call a "can't lose bet" on your part.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 12:43:54 GMT -5
Yeaaaaa for paul to politicize a tragedy. Is paul's type of post what you were looking for in your thread yesterday, Value Buy? For some reason I'm thinking about Newtown and Obama right now.
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Post by Value Buy on Jan 9, 2015 12:52:18 GMT -5
Well, three down one to go.
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 9, 2015 15:55:46 GMT -5
Let's try an experiment: Day 1: Wear a plain white t-shirt that reads in plain, not overly bold or large print: "Islam is wrong" across the front of it. Day 2: Wear a similar shirt that reads "Christianity is wrong". I'll tell you what will happen on day 2: nothing. Because you'll be killed on day 1. how much do you want to bet? just name your sum, and i will print the shirts. Depends on where I am when I'm wearing the T-shirts.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 16:06:42 GMT -5
i don't know if it occurred to anyone that this analysis is overly simplistic, but it is. But no less accurate because of it's simplicity.
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 9, 2015 16:09:37 GMT -5
I must have been watching MSNBC at a different time than you, because when I was watching it they had some Middle East experts discussing the situation in a very informative way. Explaining how a radical minority of islamists want to overthrow multiple middle eastern countries to form a single Islamic state ruled by Shia law, how Libya has become a hot bed of these extremist radicals, how Saudia Arabia made a deal with clerics years ago which has allowed the clerics to run radical fundamentalist schools inside Saudia Arabia. The west is a target because 1) past bad political moves in the Middle East, and 2) the west embraces tolerance and free speech, which is forbidden in radical islamic circles. France is a special target because of the have a high number of immigrants from former French colonies in North Africa, and France has not made much of an attempt to integrate these immigrants into mainstream French society. I would suggest we rope off an area of the Middle East and let the extreme fundamentalists all move there and set up their Shia state, along with any women who would be willing to live in that kind of fundamentalist society - within 60 years all the fundamentalists will have died out and there will be almost no little terrorists to replace them.
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