djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 8, 2015 12:57:35 GMT -5
i have to go in about 15 mins, and i probably won't be back until tonight. i have a busy day. so, let me get you started here: www.amazon.com/Dying-Win-Strategic-Suicide-Terrorism/dp/0812973380Pape chronicles this quite well. it has been 8 years since this book was published, so you would have to account for what has happened since then. and since the #1 terrorist organization by incident in the history of the world is no longer active (the Tamil Tigers), i am sure that radical Islam is catching up. but then, you also have to account for idiots like this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivikwho was responsible for a terrorist act that was roughly 6x as brutal as the one conducted in Paris. i don't remember the selective outrage machine at FOX getting unhinged over that one, but i digress..... i also think that terrorism is changing, which is probably scaring the crap out of our leaders. it is becoming more organized in the military sense. it is less cellular (911) and more like a front (ISIS). so yeah, things are changing. mmhmm: have you read this book yet?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 8, 2015 12:59:39 GMT -5
take your pick. most acts of terrorism have been committed by non-Muslims. In the western world in this millennium, I'm pretty sure they have. And before you pull a DJ definition swap, let's nail down the definition of terrorism as the American Heritage Dictionary does: "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons." that definition makes it really easy, since our actions in Iraq pretty clearly meet that definition. note: i would not make the definition that broad, Virgil. let's just stick with suicide terrorism, which has better documentation, and rules out nation states like the US.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 8, 2015 13:07:11 GMT -5
i have to go in about 15 mins, and i probably won't be back until tonight. i have a busy day. so, let me get you started here: www.amazon.com/Dying-Win-Strategic-Suicide-Terrorism/dp/0812973380Pape chronicles this quite well. it has been 8 years since this book was published, so you would have to account for what has happened since then. and since the #1 terrorist organization by incident in the history of the world is no longer active (the Tamil Tigers), i am sure that radical Islam is catching up. but then, you also have to account for idiots like this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivikwho was responsible for a terrorist act that was roughly 6x as brutal as the one conducted in Paris. i don't remember the selective outrage machine at FOX getting unhinged over that one, but i digress..... i also think that terrorism is changing, which is probably scaring the crap out of our leaders. it is becoming more organized in the military sense. it is less cellular (911) and more like a front (ISIS). so yeah, things are changing. mmhmm: have you read this book yet? I haven't, dj. I'll look it up and see if I can get it on Kindle. Otherwise, I'll order it. Thanks for pointing it out. ETA: Got it on the Kindle!
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 8, 2015 13:23:44 GMT -5
In the western world in this millennium, I'm pretty sure they have. And before you pull a DJ definition swap, let's nail down the definition of terrorism as the American Heritage Dictionary does: "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons." that definition makes it really easy, since our actions in Iraq pretty clearly meet that definition. note: i would not make the definition that broad, Virgil. let's just stick with suicide terrorism, which has better documentation, and rules out nation states like the US. Touche. The book you mention, does it document terrorism in the 20th century or in the 21st? I'm confining my argument to the 21st century, and I'd be genuinely interested in how it breaks down.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 8, 2015 13:25:49 GMT -5
that definition makes it really easy, since our actions in Iraq pretty clearly meet that definition. note: i would not make the definition that broad, Virgil. let's just stick with suicide terrorism, which has better documentation, and rules out nation states like the US. Touche. The book you mention, does it document terrorism in the 20th century or in the 21st? I'm confining my argument to the 21st century, and I'd be genuinely interested in how it breaks down. not really. it documents it from the "birth of modern terrorism" which was in the 70's, right up until the books publication in 2006. if i remember right, the last documented case they show is in late 2005, so- NO. it does not cover the "21st century" nearly so well. however, clearly the impetus for the book was 911, so it covers that, and the aftermath of that event, quite well.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 8, 2015 13:29:41 GMT -5
i have to go in about 15 mins, and i probably won't be back until tonight. i have a busy day. so, let me get you started here: www.amazon.com/Dying-Win-Strategic-Suicide-Terrorism/dp/0812973380Pape chronicles this quite well. it has been 8 years since this book was published, so you would have to account for what has happened since then. and since the #1 terrorist organization by incident in the history of the world is no longer active (the Tamil Tigers), i am sure that radical Islam is catching up. but then, you also have to account for idiots like this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivikwho was responsible for a terrorist act that was roughly 6x as brutal as the one conducted in Paris. i don't remember the selective outrage machine at FOX getting unhinged over that one, but i digress..... i also think that terrorism is changing, which is probably scaring the crap out of our leaders. it is becoming more organized in the military sense. it is less cellular (911) and more like a front (ISIS). so yeah, things are changing. mmhmm: have you read this book yet? I haven't, dj. I'll look it up and see if I can get it on Kindle. Otherwise, I'll order it. Thanks for pointing it out. ETA: Got it on the Kindle! i think you will find that book quite interesting. for example, the popular idea that Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism comes from humble roots is thoroughly debunked. in most cases (the vast majority) the leaders and contributors in radical Islam are from middle class backgrounds. they went to college, and became disillusioned with the spiritual life of their parents and their societies by simply witnessing the decadence around them. it actually has strong parallels in the US among groups here that feel that we have lapsed into liberal decadence. this idea- the parallels between East and West on these issues- is discussed at length in the documentary "The Power Of Nightmares" (BBC)- also highly recommended.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jan 8, 2015 13:55:01 GMT -5
The silly European aversion to guns is the opposite extreme from our police having tanks. The police had to retreat because even the police were UNARMED! Unbelievable- French police ARE permitted to carry weapons, but many choose not to: hotair.com/archives/2015/01/07/unarmed-french-police-literally-retreated-in-the-face-of-islamist-attackers/And how'd that gun control work out for the French? The assailants had AK's and a rocket launcher. Even Howard Dean nearly tripped over the truth about gun control: Dean still couldn't bring himself to call them muslim or even islamic. But progress is progress. FRANCE is a well-policed state – les flics are everywhere. There are different police forces. The municipal police are just a small step-up from traffic wardens. The gendarmerie are the real and frightening police force. They are armed at all times, openly carrying guns and tasers on their belts. Their reputation as hard uncompromising officers is well deserved - the slightly bumbling bonhomie of Maigret has no place in reality. All their potential customers would be best advised to avoid confrontation with them.
www.connexionfrance.com/Police-flics-France-crs-riot-cops-behaviour-news-article.html
If some municipal bike police who issue traffic tickets CHOOSE not to be armed, you're blaming gun control? Seriously, Paul?
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Jan 8, 2015 14:07:37 GMT -5
Nah. Don't trust them. Maybe what we really need to do is, as I've said, identify those who pose a real threat, and keep a closer eye on them. We had 19 hijackers who were here illegally. Maybe instead of blanket amnesty for anyone that can manage to sneak across the border, we put the military where it belongs: on the border, not on Main Street. The 19 highjackers that you mentioned were in US legaly on visas. From what I remember some of them attended flight school in Florida. And keeping an eye on anybody wouldn't that require more presence of a government force intruding in people's life? Wouldn't that contravene with your own idea of less government?
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 8, 2015 14:13:37 GMT -5
By absolute law of nature, or statistically speaking? take your pick. most acts of terrorism have been committed by non-Muslims. I would argue that a lot of the extreme radical/terrorist groups, including ISIS, use religion as a kind of moral disquise to cloak their true intention - global anarchy. Maybe the leaders of their group started out with some kind of religious agenda, but at this point, these are disgruntled young people who feel they got the wrong end of the stick, and they've decided to blow shit up and kill people just for the fun of it. Religion is just their weak justification for doing it.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 8, 2015 14:19:03 GMT -5
The silly European aversion to guns is the opposite extreme from our police having tanks. The police had to retreat because even the police were UNARMED! Unbelievable- French police ARE permitted to carry weapons, but many choose not to: hotair.com/archives/2015/01/07/unarmed-french-police-literally-retreated-in-the-face-of-islamist-attackers/And how'd that gun control work out for the French? The assailants had AK's and a rocket launcher. Even Howard Dean nearly tripped over the truth about gun control: Dean still couldn't bring himself to call them muslim or even islamic. But progress is progress. FRANCE is a well-policed state – les flics are everywhere. There are different police forces. The municipal police are just a small step-up from traffic wardens. The gendarmerie are the real and frightening police force. They are armed at all times, openly carrying guns and tasers on their belts. Their reputation as hard uncompromising officers is well deserved - the slightly bumbling bonhomie of Maigret has no place in reality. All their potential customers would be best advised to avoid confrontation with them.
www.connexionfrance.com/Police-flics-France-crs-riot-cops-behaviour-news-article.html
If some municipal bike police who issue traffic tickets CHOOSE not to be armed, you're blaming gun control? Seriously, Paul?
We have some mounted policemen in our city. If we had a terrorist attack, I doubt they would wait for the tanks to arrive - they would be galloping to the scene - because that's what police DO, whether they are on horses or bikes.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jan 8, 2015 14:20:44 GMT -5
Nah. Don't trust them. Maybe what we really need to do is, as I've said, identify those who pose a real threat, and keep a closer eye on them. We had 19 hijackers who were here illegally. Maybe instead of blanket amnesty for anyone that can manage to sneak across the border, we put the military where it belongs: on the border, not on Main Street. The 19 highjackers that you mentioned were in US legaly on visas. From what I remember some of them attended flight school in Florida. And keeping an eye on anybody wouldn't that require more presence of a government force intruding in people's life? Wouldn't that contravene with your own idea of less government? Keep a closer eye on them foreigners.
White guys get a free pass because they never commit terrorist acts. Oh wait.......
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jan 8, 2015 14:21:59 GMT -5
FRANCE is a well-policed state – les flics are everywhere. There are different police forces. The municipal police are just a small step-up from traffic wardens. The gendarmerie are the real and frightening police force. They are armed at all times, openly carrying guns and tasers on their belts. Their reputation as hard uncompromising officers is well deserved - the slightly bumbling bonhomie of Maigret has no place in reality. All their potential customers would be best advised to avoid confrontation with them.
www.connexionfrance.com/Police-flics-France-crs-riot-cops-behaviour-news-article.html
If some municipal bike police who issue traffic tickets CHOOSE not to be armed, you're blaming gun control? Seriously, Paul?
We have some mounted policemen in our city. If we had a terrorist attack, I doubt they would wait for the tanks to arrive - they would be galloping to the scene - because that's what police DO, whether they are on horses or bikes. What I'm saying is that you can't blame this on gun control. Paul is being disingenuous. As usual.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jan 8, 2015 14:28:23 GMT -5
Evidently, Charlie's police bodyguard was armed. Didn't do him much good, did it?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 8, 2015 14:30:38 GMT -5
take your pick. most acts of terrorism have been committed by non-Muslims. I would argue that a lot of the extreme radical/terrorist groups, including ISIS, use religion as a kind of moral disquise to cloak their true intention - global anarchy. Maybe the leaders of their group started out with some kind of religious agenda, but at this point, these are disgruntled young people who feel they got the wrong end of the stick, and they've decided to blow shit up and kill people just for the fun of it. Religion is just their weak justification for doing it. I've said in the past that I have more in common with the average Muslim I meet than with the average atheist I meet, so I admit I'm a poor choice of opponent if you're looking for a rousing "terrorism = Islam" debate.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 8, 2015 14:31:14 GMT -5
I haven't, dj. I'll look it up and see if I can get it on Kindle. Otherwise, I'll order it. Thanks for pointing it out. ETA: Got it on the Kindle! i think you will find that book quite interesting. for example, the popular idea that Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism comes from humble roots is thoroughly debunked. in most cases (the vast majority) the leaders and contributors in radical Islam are from middle class backgrounds. they went to college, and became disillusioned with the spiritual life of their parents and their societies by simply witnessing the decadence around them. it actually has strong parallels in the US among groups here that feel that we have lapsed into liberal decadence. this idea- the parallels between East and West on these issues- is discussed at length in the documentary "The Power Of Nightmares" (BBC)- also highly recommended. The premise you describe fits with what I observed through living in Islamic countries for so long. I'm anxious to read the book.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 8, 2015 15:46:49 GMT -5
Nah. Don't trust them. Maybe what we really need to do is, as I've said, identify those who pose a real threat, and keep a closer eye on them. We had 19 hijackers who were here illegally. Maybe instead of blanket amnesty for anyone that can manage to sneak across the border, we put the military where it belongs: on the border, not on Main Street. The 19 highjackers that you mentioned were in US legaly on visas. From what I remember some of them attended flight school in Florida. And keeping an eye on anybody wouldn't that require more presence of a government force intruding in people's life? Wouldn't that contravene with your own idea of less government? Incorrect. They were here illegally on expired visas. One was even pulled over by police shortly before the attack and since we have no way, and apparently no desire, for police to detect illegal aliens and deport them, he was free to go kill Americans.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 8, 2015 15:47:43 GMT -5
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 8, 2015 15:49:47 GMT -5
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 8, 2015 15:53:43 GMT -5
We have some mounted policemen in our city. If we had a terrorist attack, I doubt they would wait for the tanks to arrive - they would be galloping to the scene - because that's what police DO, whether they are on horses or bikes. What I'm saying is that you can't blame this on gun control. Paul is being disingenuous. As usual.
Oh, it's way worse than gun control. If I were to be completely honest about it, I'd point out that it's a cultural anti-gun bias of the sort that Eric Holder would like to indoctrinate, our own culture into having:
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 8, 2015 16:08:59 GMT -5
Yes, because having a well armored police force and heavily armed citizenship has kept America from having these horrible kinds of mass murders occur on our soil. Oh - wait..... I am quoting you just so I can like your comment again! It blows my mind that people are using THIS as a Pro-gun rally cry. France has to worry about terrorist shootings. America has to worry about terrorist attacks AND Americans shooting the shit out of each other. There's no evidence to indicate that Americans are "shooting the shit out each other". And if they are, then it's clearly a problem of inequality of gun distribution- we need to get those people some guns so they will stop shooting the shit out of each other! And no. I'm not kidding. That really is the solution: www.examiner.com/article/two-new-studies-confirm-gun-control-s-worst-nightmare-more-guns-less-crime
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Jan 8, 2015 16:10:49 GMT -5
What ABC or whomever uncovered in regards to visas was not uncommon before 9/11. Saudi Arabia being one of our major suppliers of crude oil got with that many "rights"/concessions from the US. Aplying for a visa to enter US was just a formality for them the same way it still is for a German or French citizen today. I'd go as far as calling it common practice and was not considered negligence. Not anymore! The police forces don't have the legal power to detain you just because your visa is expired. That is just in US. In many other countries, you get pulled over and you are illegally staying, you end up in jail. Most of these countries don't use the drivers license as a way of identifying yourself. They have generaly some form of citizen/legal resident ID for that purpose. Also, in many of this countries, police can stop and ask you for identification on any suspicion and not necessarily with probable cause justifying that as a measure for safety. Would Americans ever agree with such practices?
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Jan 8, 2015 16:13:42 GMT -5
TEA Party at NPR doesn't qualify as a credible source of information. It is biased and crazy oriented! They are there to exercise their freedom of speech.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 8, 2015 17:23:24 GMT -5
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jan 8, 2015 17:26:36 GMT -5
Gael Fabiano, spokesperson for the police union UNSA-Police, said the killers appeared to have planned the attack well and described them as “cold-blooded”. He said the police were “confronting a new form of violence, and we have to adapt to that. We have to have the means to act. The police were already at Charlie Hebdo to protect it from such an attack, but these terrorists acted with such determination and cold-bloodedness, what could they do? These terrorists were armed with weapons of war. How can our 9mm pistol defend us from people armed with Kalashnikovs and rocket launchers?”
www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/07/charlie-hebdo-shooting-paris-magazine-target-raid
Well, clearly, everyone should be armed with weapons of war.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jan 8, 2015 17:28:36 GMT -5
Is that a rocket launcher in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Jan 8, 2015 17:44:58 GMT -5
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 8, 2015 17:45:47 GMT -5
Gael Fabiano, spokesperson for the police union UNSA-Police, said the killers appeared to have planned the attack well and described them as “cold-blooded”. He said the police were “confronting a new form of violence, and we have to adapt to that. We have to have the means to act. The police were already at Charlie Hebdo to protect it from such an attack, but these terrorists acted with such determination and cold-bloodedness, what could they do? These terrorists were armed with weapons of war. How can our 9mm pistol defend us from people armed with Kalashnikovs and rocket launchers?”
www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/07/charlie-hebdo-shooting-paris-magazine-target-raid
Well, clearly, everyone should be armed with weapons of war. It was, much like the Benghazi attack, a well planned, military style raid- for sure. They did not get their hands on weapons like that through the "gun show loophole".
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 8, 2015 17:51:13 GMT -5
It's important not to just read what is atop the video but to hear president's complete remarks in the video. Obama states, "The future does not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam". But to be credible, those who condemn that slander, must also condemn the hate we see in images of Jesus Christ that are desecrated. Or churches that are destroyed. Or the Holocaust that is denied. Let us condemn incitement against Sufi Muslims. And Shia pilgrims. It's time to heed the words of Ghandi. "Intolerance is itself a form of violence...and an obstacle to the growth of a true democratic spirit." Is there a reason you posted that particular video, AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP? Obama is right on with his remarks. I would hope you would agree with Obama. How about even more than less than a minute of a 34 36 minute speech?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 8, 2015 17:54:20 GMT -5
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 8, 2015 19:23:29 GMT -5
One other sad aspect to this story:
France's economy is heading into the crapper faster than economists previously believed was mathematically possible.
I really hate to say it, but 12 people getting shot to death in a terrorist raid really is the least of their problems.
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