Work from home and business vs. personal property?

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Long story short- I have an employee that's worked from home for some period of time now, but they are no longer needed.  I informed them that their employment would be terminated at the end of January- not wanting to be Grinchy and all, however...  

They have been paid W-2 base plus commission, and I haven't written a commission check in almost a year, so I don't see any need to continue paying them at all.  Commission is kind of the point.

I sent a standard termination / separation agreement which I'd like them to sign, but I understand fully nobody has to sign anything they don't want to sign, so... 

As an added incentive, I offered to allow them to keep the business property which they're using which the company purchased (as a practical matter I was going to let them keep it anyway- I'm not chasing someone down for a desk, a chair, a lamp, a laptop, etc.)

I got this in response (paraphrasing for brevity):

This is to confirm I am in receipt of the separation agreement you asked me to sign.  I have a relationship with an attorney who represents me in another business matter and he offered to review the agreement, and I took him up on his offer. He reviewed it and advised me that there is no necessity or benefit to me of signing this agreement. With respect to any property Your Company, Inc. believes it owns, it should send documentation of ownership including a description, make, model, and serial numbers, applicable receipts, and a request for its return, and I will return it promptly. Otherwise, all property in my possession is assumed to be my own.

OK- I mean I'm not going to go to war over this, but it does bring up a question:

Thinking about all the employees that telecommute, have phones and other devices, etc. supplied by the company- what's the typical arrangement on that?  I basically furnished a home office for the guy.  It's not worth fighting over, but on principle, the company is entitled to the return of its property, is it not? (and btw, if I wanted to, I could supply all the documentation)

Anyway, after I got the guy's weird response, I responded that his termination is effective immediately, and I immediately cut him off from all access, shut his email down, turned his phone off, and canceled his internet service- his phone and internet alone were running the company $200 a month- and I would have paid through end of January.  Ahh, well. People are weird.

[mollyanna58]

I suppose it depends upon the agreement you had (hopefully in writing) when you supplied the  items.  And I think after that response, I would supply the documentation for a return of the laptop, printer, and other equipment; things that are easily transportable.  Let him keep the desk, etc., that you'd need a truck to move. 

[giramomma]

I don't blame you on this one.

I work at home. We pay for our own internet, because we also use it for home needs. I use a work-issued laptop. It's not mine.

I also work for state gov't.  I'm lucky to be able to work at home, and it's not like the state is going to start paying for my internet anyway.

[gooddecisions]

My company does not come after chairs, desks, phones, keyboards or even printers- but it absolutely requires the return of the laptop. I wouldn't have a problem returning anything my company wanted back. I'm fully aware of everything they provided even though it's been 10 years.

However, it's a security risk and violation not returning the laptop given that there are proprietary systems and applications and access to customer sensitive data. They nor I have never asked for a serial number. I can't even imagine the gull of somebody sending me a letter like that. Seems a little unethical.

[Bonny]

Sounds like your employee just did a copy and paste of his attorney's e-mail. Too bad people don't think these things through.

You are paying him through 1/31/15 correct?

[ArchietheDragon]

People are weird and will often cut off their nose to spite their face.  

[dannylion]

He's hoping you don't have documentation so he can cash in on keeping your property.  That sort of tactic might net him a little money but cost him future, more lucrative opportunities. Unfortunately, people tend to focus on tactics not strategy and end up losing in the long run.

People are stupid.   

[hoops902]

Without knowing his motivations, i think that's a decently reasonable request.  Especially with the idea that it's not just a laptop, but desk, chair, lamp, etc.  I'd want documentation.  I don't want to get into a back and forth about "i bought this, no we did, no i did".

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Dec 11, 2014 10:45:52 GMT -5 mollyanna58 said:

I suppose it depends upon the agreement you had (hopefully in writing) when you supplied the  items.  And I think after that response, I would supply the documentation for a return of the laptop, printer, and other equipment; things that are easily transportable.  Let him keep the desk, etc., that you'd need a truck to move. 

Oh, it's all in writing. It's just frankly not worth it to mess with this guy- not to mention, he's already given plenty of indication he's looking for a fight, and it's generally a mistake to give these people a fight.  Pig wrestling and what not.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Dec 11, 2014 11:10:46 GMT -5 dannylion said:

He's hoping you don't have documentation so he can cash in on keeping your property.  That sort of tactic might net him a little money but cost him future, more lucrative opportunities. Unfortunately, people tend to focus on tactics not strategy and end up losing in the long run.

People are stupid.   

Well, given I was going to pay him (and his internet and phone) until the end of January, and I just cut him off yesterday- it's tough to see how he nets out- even in the short term- with used office furniture / equipment?

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Dec 11, 2014 11:01:58 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Sounds like your employee just did a copy and paste of his attorney's e-mail. Too bad people don't think these things through.

You are paying him through 1/31/15 correct?

Not anymore, I'm not.  He's out.

[tskeeter]

Dec 11, 2014 10:38:21 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Long story short- I have an employee that's worked from home for some period of time now, but they are no longer needed.  I informed them that their employment would be terminated at the end of January- not wanting to be Grinchy and all, however...  

They have been paid W-2 base plus commission, and I haven't written a commission check in almost a year, so I don't see any need to continue paying them at all.  Commission is kind of the point.

I sent a standard termination / separation agreement which I'd like them to sign, but I understand fully nobody has to sign anything they don't want to sign, so... 

As an added incentive, I offered to allow them to keep the business property which they're using which the company purchased (as a practical matter I was going to let them keep it anyway- I'm not chasing someone down for a desk, a chair, a lamp, a laptop, etc.)

I got this in response (paraphrasing for brevity):

This is to confirm I am in receipt of the separation agreement you asked me to sign.  I have a relationship with an attorney who represents me in another business matter and he offered to review the agreement, and I took him up on his offer. He reviewed it and advised me that there is no necessity or benefit to me of signing this agreement. With respect to any property Your Company, Inc. believes it owns, it should send documentation of ownership including a description, make, model, and serial numbers, applicable receipts, and a request for its return, and I will return it promptly. Otherwise, all property in my possession is assumed to be my own.

OK- I mean I'm not going to go to war over this, but it does bring up a question:

Thinking about all the employees that telecommute, have phones and other devices, etc. supplied by the company- what's the typical arrangement on that?  I basically furnished a home office for the guy.  It's not worth fighting over, but on principle, the company is entitled to the return of its property, is it not? (and btw, if I wanted to, I could supply all the documentation)

Anyway, after I got the guy's weird response, I responded that his termination is effective immediately, and I immediately cut him off from all access, shut his email down, turned his phone off, and canceled his internet service- his phone and internet alone were running the company $200 a month- and I would have paid through end of January.  Ahh, well. People are weird.

The part about the office furniture indicates that an attorney was involved.  In the interest of protecting clients against possible future consequences, such as claims related to company property, sometimes lawyers make things more complicated than they need to be under the circumstances of the situation.  In the process, the lawyer often intiates annoyance or conflict that works to the detriment of the employee.  (Of course, this puts the lawyer in the position to say "See what a jerk your former employer is?  Aren't you lucky to have me protecting your interests?")  I think lawyers frequently create as much conflict as they resolve.

And yes, when an employer provides an employee tools and equipment to be used in performing their job, the employer is entitled to the return of it's property.  Whether the property is uniforms, cell phones, credit cards, computer and office equipment, tools, parts and supplies, samples, demonstration or sample kits, sales promotional materials, cars or trucks.  Heck, even the red stapler.  Basically anything that the company, not the employee, provided.     

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Dec 11, 2014 11:51:41 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Without knowing his motivations, i think that's a decently reasonable request.  Especially with the idea that it's not just a laptop, but desk, chair, lamp, etc.  I'd want documentation.  I don't want to get into a back and forth about "i bought this, no we did, no i did".

I don't find it that far out of bounds on its own- I'm a stickler for signing anything. If I don't get something in return for signing something or agreeing to something, the other party can forget it. Generally speaking, I don't sign anything I don't have to sign. I even refuse to sign traffic citations. So, I understand being a jackass about not signing things- I am one.

What I don't get is the assertion that he automatically gets to keep the office furniture and laptop, etc., UNLESS I prove the company owns it. He knows the company owns it, so to assert there's some possibility of any discrepancy is flat dishonest.

[Bonny]

Dec 11, 2014 11:58:53 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Dec 11, 2014 11:01:58 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Sounds like your employee just did a copy and paste of his attorney's e-mail. Too bad people don't think these things through.

You are paying him through 1/31/15 correct?

Not anymore, I'm not.  He's out.

I'd be careful about that. If you've given him notice until the 31st I'd pay him through the 31st.

Be the bigger person here Paul.

[justme]

Do desks and chairs even have serial numbers?

[bean29]

I agree with Bonnie,

Since you told him in writing you intended to pay him through 1/31/15, I would be careful changing the agreement.

Documenting personal property?  It might take me some time, but I could do it.  The desk, chair etc were all deductible when you paid for them, so you probably have the documentation in your tax files.  Dig them out.  Businesses pay personal property taxes on desks and chairs, do you have it listed on a personal property tax return?

Make him retun the computer.  If he had not been an employee you would not have had to provide the desk, computer, phone, chair etc.  He is proving that the decision to terminate him was the right decision.  If you had not paid him as an employee you can be sure his attorney would be looking into that too.

[bobosensei]

What a goober.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Dec 11, 2014 12:04:02 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Dec 11, 2014 11:58:53 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Not anymore, I'm not.  He's out.

I'd be careful about that. If you've given him notice until the 31st I'd pay him through the 31st.

Be the bigger person here Paul.

Too late.  Anyway, he turned it down.  The pay through the end of January was severance and it was contingent upon acceptance of the agreement.  I guess I should have included that detail.  The company's position is that severance was declined.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Dec 11, 2014 12:14:00 GMT -5 justme said:

Do desks and chairs even have serial numbers?

No, but they have email communication selecting it from Amazon, and an Amazon email receipt and record of where it was shipped- his house.  I even have a receipt for payment to a contractor to assemble these items.

[Bonny]

Dec 11, 2014 12:45:21 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Dec 11, 2014 12:04:02 GMT -5 Bonny said:

I'd be careful about that. If you've given him notice until the 31st I'd pay him through the 31st.

Be the bigger person here Paul.

Too late.  Anyway, he turned it down.  The pay through the end of January was severance and it was contingent upon acceptance of the agreement.  I guess I should have included that detail.  The company's position is that severance was declined.

I hope you included that 'detail' in your communication with him. Because the attorney wrote that he didn't see any advantage in him signing the agreement. That seems significant.

Is this typical behavior for this employee?

[justme]

Dec 11, 2014 12:46:43 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Dec 11, 2014 12:14:00 GMT -5 justme said:

Do desks and chairs even have serial numbers?

No, but they have email communication selecting it from Amazon, and an Amazon email receipt and record of where it was shipped- his house.  I even have a receipt for payment to a contractor to assemble these items.

Oh I figured you did. I was just more commenting on the absurdity of the lawyer/employee wanting serial numbers for items that don't have them.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Dec 11, 2014 12:54:10 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Dec 11, 2014 12:45:21 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Too late.  Anyway, he turned it down.  The pay through the end of January was severance and it was contingent upon acceptance of the agreement.  I guess I should have included that detail.  The company's position is that severance was declined.

I hope you included that 'detail' in your communication with him. Because the attorney wrote that he didn't see any advantage in him signing the agreement. That seems significant.

Is this typical behavior for this employee?

I'm assuming his attorney is competent to review the agreement.  And no- it's not typical.  Caught me completely off guard.

[Bonny]

Dec 11, 2014 13:13:17 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Dec 11, 2014 12:54:10 GMT -5 Bonny said:

I hope you included that 'detail' in your communication with him. Because the attorney wrote that he didn't see any advantage in him signing the agreement. That seems significant.

Is this typical behavior for this employee?

I'm assuming his attorney is competent to review the agreement.  And no- it's not typical.  Caught me completely off guard.

I bet the attorney didn't read the agreement. Your employee probably sent an e-mail or called his buddy and said I got this agreement. Do I have to sign it?

Before this incident would you have called this guy back for additional assignments?

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Dec 11, 2014 13:20:50 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Dec 11, 2014 13:13:17 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I'm assuming his attorney is competent to review the agreement.  And no- it's not typical.  Caught me completely off guard.

I bet the attorney didn't read the agreement. Your employee probably sent an e-mail or called his buddy and said I got this agreement. Do I have to sign it?

Before this incident would you have called this guy back for additional assignments?

It's questionable- after all, the reason I decided to cut ties is there was no production.

[Bonny]

OK I'm guessing you'll hear from this guy when it dawns on him that he won't be paid any longer.

Sounds like he's focused on whatever else he may be working on with his attorney. Not really your problem but if he was someone you wanted to work with in the future (I was thinking this was part of your insurance claims work) that you might pick up the phone and say "Hey, I'm wondering what's going on? You do realize that I'm giving you six weeks notice and a severance package in return for signing that agreement?". And then shut up and let him talk.

But if you don't care about maintaining a relationship or a small unlawful termination claim then wait and see what happens.

[mroped]

Good for you Paul! I would've done the exact same. I'd say forget about chair, lamps etc but I'd ask about the laptop being return because as it was mentioned is about intellectual/business property and such. Other than that, just forget about it and get on with your life. 
I had an employee that I laid off in the winter, that because of the nature of of the business. The last day he asked me if he can borrow one of my pick-ups to move his stuff out of his girlfriends house and I agreed. Three monts later I had to corner him in a parking lot and retake my truck which he literally destroyed in the mean time. When I called State Police after about a month since his disappearance their reply was "well sir you gave him permission to use it! We don't care for how long! He has the right to use it, there is nothing we can do!"

[The Captain]

Just as an aside ...

If you have employees in other states I'm assuming (if you are incorporated) you are filing income tax returns in those states as well since property absolutely creates nexus.  If not, you may want to consider changing your business practice to give employees personal property and make sure you keep your business structured so all activities are controlled and directed from your home state (yada yada yada).  It's obviously more complicated than that but I'm sure you get the idea...

[gooddecisions]

If it were me and I owned my own business, I'd structure it so that the employee/contractor is responsible for their own office equipment. It's very generous of you to provide the equipment, technology and services, but likely- you could still find talented, competent people without offering those perks. Working from home is a huge perk in itself and if somebody can't get a lamp and chair for their home office, well they probably weren't a good applicant anyway.

Also, my company has a $150 expense reimbursement limit on phone and internet. It's the employees responsibility to renegotiate if they start getting close to the limit. Not surprisingly, most people can keep those expenses under $100/month if they will be stuck paying the difference.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Dec 11, 2014 13:38:27 GMT -5 Bonny said:

OK I'm guessing you'll hear from this guy when it dawns on him that he won't be paid any longer.

Sounds like he's focused on whatever else he may be working on with his attorney. Not really your problem but if he was someone you wanted to work with in the future (I was thinking this was part of your insurance claims work) that you might pick up the phone and say "Hey, I'm wondering what's going on? You do realize that I'm giving you six weeks notice and a severance package in return for signing that agreement?". And then shut up and let him talk.

But if you don't care about maintaining a relationship or a small unlawful termination claim then wait and see what happens.

I see what you're saying, but now I don't really care about the relationship.  I was mildly perturbed by the no communication and no production.  Now, I'm just annoyed by the unnecessary drama.  The answer for me is really to move on- there're better candidates for work out there that I don't have to put up with this kind of crap from.

It's doubtful he'll both try to keep the company property AND sue the company for wrongful termination after he declined the offer and separation agreement.  If he does, he does.  Cross that bridge when we come to it- if we come to it.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Dec 11, 2014 15:16:47 GMT -5 mroped said:

Good for you Paul! I would've done the exact same. I'd say forget about chair, lamps etc but I'd ask about the laptop being return because as it was mentioned is about intellectual/business property and such. Other than that, just forget about it and get on with your life. 
I had an employee that I laid off in the winter, that because of the nature of of the business. The last day he asked me if he can borrow one of my pick-ups to move his stuff out of his girlfriends house and I agreed. Three monts later I had to corner him in a parking lot and retake my truck which he literally destroyed in the mean time. When I called State Police after about a month since his disappearance their reply was "well sir you gave him permission to use it! We don't care for how long! He has the right to use it, there is nothing we can do!"

No good deed goes unpunished, does it?