Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Dec 17, 2014 21:18:48 GMT -5
Not exactly: I informed them that their employment would be terminated at the end of January- ... sent a standard termination / separation agreement .... after I got the guy's weird response, I responded that his termination is effective immediately My take is that he was going to be laid off with separation agreement. Refused that so terminated. Laid off = UI Terminated harder to get UI No good deed goes unpunished
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DVM gone riding
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Post by DVM gone riding on Dec 17, 2014 21:28:19 GMT -5
I agree with Bonnie, Since you told him in writing you intended to pay him through 1/31/15, I would be careful changing the agreement. Documenting personal property? It might take me some time, but I could do it. The desk, chair etc were all deductible when you paid for them, so you probably have the documentation in your tax files. Dig them out. Businesses pay personal property taxes on desks and chairs, do you have it listed on a personal property tax return? Make him retun the computer. If he had not been an employee you would not have had to provide the desk, computer, phone, chair etc. He is proving that the decision to terminate him was the right decision. If you had not paid him as an employee you can be sure his attorney would be looking into that too. depends on the state. he could have signed n returned the form letter n kept all the stuff butNO he had to talk to a lawyer ! so i too would terminate immediately in response n demand return of all electronic equipment .
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Dec 17, 2014 21:39:31 GMT -5
Not exactly: I informed them that their employment would be terminated at the end of January- ... sent a standard termination / separation agreement .... after I got the guy's weird response, I responded that his termination is effective immediately My take is that he was going to be laid off with separation agreement. Refused that so terminated. Laid off = UI Terminated harder to get UI No good deed goes unpunished I think because of his actions, he was terminated, not laid off and will have a more difficult time getting unemployment if Paul decides to fight him.
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justme
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Post by justme on Dec 17, 2014 22:38:57 GMT -5
If the employee is in Fl, he prob won't get much in ui. In Florida it's roughly half of your weekly wages up to 275. So if he's only earned 1400/mth the last year he's looking at like 700 a month on ui.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Dec 17, 2014 23:15:38 GMT -5
The rhetorical question is: was the 4 yo laptop / desk / chair worth $275 week * 26 weeks?
My guess is it was worth $275
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 18, 2014 23:43:22 GMT -5
You seem to know an awful lot about a document you've never even seen! I didn't need to see it to give Paul a potential reason he got such a nasty and entitled response. I was answering his question of why the employee seemed to think he now needed to prove ownership of company equipment as Paul terminates employment. See my recent post above to Paul's additionally provided information of the document. Per my calculations Paul was offering ~$3,000 while potentially preventing the employee getting ~$8,000. I realize Florida may have different laws than my state, but when Paul asks why he got such a nasty response, I think that can be deserved when you are potentially trying to screw someone out of $5,000. I realize Paul didn't check the law (his mistake prior to writing the letter), but he could accidentally be offering something that Paul sees as a "gift" but the employee sees as a "screw you over" type letter. If this was to me in my state, I would read it as a "screw me over" type letter where I could get unemployment in my state by showing that sales have dropped off and I am being laid off (not fired). Even if it is my job to get those sales, without any disciplinary action prior to this event, it was just a downturn in business and thus a layoff. Well, as I've said this employee was W-2 commission only. That means that he's literally entitled to $0.00 beyond his production. I could keep him on and pay him $0. I chose to be a bit more generous and support him in his home office set up and operation in hopes that he would focus on the long term growth opportunity instead of covering this month's expenses. For awhile, he did just that- and we were both relatively happy. There was no downturn in business, just a downturn in his production. FWIW, I run everything by an attorney, but I like to avoid having the attorney actually do the communication. No need to set people on the defensive for no reason, and lawyers tend to have that effect. So, my offer was short and sweet- just an email with bullet points. If he accepted, I'd send the more formal document. It has nothing to do with "screwing someone over" and it has everything to do with honesty and integrity. There is zero doubt the company owns the equipment and furniture in question. We designed and built the office together. I have every single email, I have every single receipt- but the point is not to "prove" it, the point is that I expect people to be honest and to deal in good faith. He's done neither. That is why I decided to rescind the offer and just fire him outright. Since it's performance based, and not by mutual agreement which would have been better for him. Anyway he won't be receiving unemployment benefits even if he applies- which he won't because as a few have picked up on-- he's working for someone else right now. As far as lawsuits go, wrongful termination suits are EXTREMELY difficult in at-will states. As they should be. Especially when termination was expected because the employee basically arguably passively quit.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Dec 19, 2014 8:02:14 GMT -5
Sounds like there's really no issue here. Worst case, he keeps the furniture, the phone is useless and the laptop...whatever.
You've proven the old adage that a contract is only as good as those that sign it. You already know that.
No real loss on your part. These remote set ups have a certain amount of risk. You decided to extend your patience when he wasn't producing. That's fine and sometimes it works out. This time it didn't. You cut your losses and move on. it's all good.
Why are you structuring this part of business that requires you to employ and directly pay individuals like this. Appears like there are some drawbacks to a set up where you are a W-2 employer.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Dec 19, 2014 8:38:31 GMT -5
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP - you will keep us posted, right? Like tries to sue you or argues about unemployment or something?
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Dec 19, 2014 8:45:20 GMT -5
Like anything, you need to spell out everything in advance on hiring. What happens when there is a termination or someone quits, retires, etc? I think spelling that out in terms of what is company property would be pretty clear.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 19, 2014 8:56:02 GMT -5
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP - you will keep us posted, right? Like tries to sue you or argues about unemployment or something? Yep. Sure. All quiet for now- and like I said, I'm not chasing down the stuff. If he gets his jollies by keeping $300 worth of stuff- great. Have fun with it.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 19, 2014 9:01:42 GMT -5
Like anything, you need to spell out everything in advance on hiring. What happens when there is a termination or someone quits, retires, etc? I think spelling that out in terms of what is company property would be pretty clear. We did. It's in the pile of crap he signed when he started. The thing I didn't do a fantastic job of is keeping track of the make, model, and serial number of every item. My main motivation isn't to make sure I got the stuff back, like I said I threw it out there as an incentive for him to sign the termination agreement and release. To my way of thinking, it is like saying- let's just let bygones be bygones. You avoid the hassle of returning all the crap, or having it picked up, we both acknowledge this arrangement is over, and we move on. What I was taken aback by was his defensiveness and sense of entitlement to items he knows he doesn't own morally, let alone legally. I'm always a little surprised when people consciously choose dishonesty. It's not a seed I'd want to plant, or a harvest I'd want to reap. We all know what's what, and what's right in this situation. If he doesn't want to sign a release, that's all well and good. But to claim he somehow magically owns my company property by virtue of possession being 9/10ths of the law was a rather short-sighted action on his part.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Dec 19, 2014 9:06:30 GMT -5
If you are going to make that the policy, then it is generally wise to enforce the policy. If he is dumb enough to want to want to go through the expense of paying an attorney to keep a computer, then he's an idiot. And, it never hurts to send a clear message that you expect people to live up to the contracts and terms they agreed too.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 19, 2014 9:08:31 GMT -5
Sounds like there's really no issue here. Worst case, he keeps the furniture, the phone is useless and the laptop...whatever. You've proven the old adage that a contract is only as good as those that sign it. You already know that. No real loss on your part. These remote set ups have a certain amount of risk. You decided to extend your patience when he wasn't producing. That's fine and sometimes it works out. This time it didn't. You cut your losses and move on. it's all good. Why are you structuring this part of business that requires you to employ and directly pay individuals like this. Appears like there are some drawbacks to a set up where you are a W-2 employer. I've used the 1099 contractor model extensively in the past, and we still use it selectively today. The issue was that I wanted to bring sales and marketing in-house. I wanted it tracked, I wanted meetings, we wanted our people to wear our shirts, promote our brand, and hold them captive to selling and marketing for US-- and basically I wanted to manage the workflow- loosely, but I wanted no questions about status: he works for the company, we have say. We did not set hours, other than the meetings (otherwise, the commission-only thing becomes iffy even though I know companies routinely do this). Bottom line, we felt like we were crossing some lines with claiming people were 1099 when they acted more like employees- commissioned sales people seemed to be the way to go. Still is, I believe. There are drawbacks to everything. The biggest drawback to 1099 if they should decide they are employees and sue us-- all the "at-will" stuff goes out the window, minimum wage laws kick in (you don't get to decide at that point to split the baby and agree that they're employees, but commission-only-- the court will decide that) and other things apply. We decided W-2 commission-only was the way to go to avoid that big hairy mess.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Dec 19, 2014 9:16:31 GMT -5
If you are going to make that the policy, then it is generally wise to enforce the policy. If he is dumb enough to want to want to go through the expense of paying an attorney to keep a computer, then he's an idiot. And, it never hurts to send a clear message that you expect people to live up to the contracts and terms they agreed too. But it's going to cost him more to enforce the policy than the stuff is worth.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 19, 2014 9:16:38 GMT -5
If you are going to make that the policy, then it is generally wise to enforce the policy. If he is dumb enough to want to want to go through the expense of paying an attorney to keep a computer, then he's an idiot. And, it never hurts to send a clear message that you expect people to live up to the contracts and terms they agreed too. I think while you make a good point- if you're going to do something, be consistent. That being said, I'm moving in the other direction. What makes big, lumbering, overstuffed corporations the idiotic animals that they are is "cracking down" when they should be letting up. In the future, we are going to regard these items as part of the employee's compensation. We are literally going to buy them for the employees and let them keep them, and not worry about it. Things like trying to tighten up how we deal with office furniture and equipment and throwing good money after bad to go enforce the contract are, to my way of thinking anyway, an unnecessary distraction. I personally feel- except with respect to digital content, files, intellectual property, confidential client information, and non-disclosure / non-circumvent agreements which we WILL vigorously enforce- that the other direction is better. I try to approach things with the least amount of unnecessary adversarial attitude as possible. Our real business interest doesn't lie in office furniture and equipment-- I want to make sure we don't miss protecting our client list, and their confidential data by focusing on "getting our stuff back".
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Dec 19, 2014 9:20:55 GMT -5
With work at home situations, the lines become blurred I think. And, you do risk having confidential information out of your line of sight. So that is something to consider. I have hired work at homers and I really am not all that comfortable with someone working with our information at home, even though that is a common thing. I really prefer to deal with mortar and bricks business. But, yes, getting it back may be more hassle than it is worth. However, as a good businessman you of course want to realize that and make sure that your business isn't losing money as a result. Or, there may be a way to withhold the last paycheck, deduct the amount of the computer based on whatever you agreed on hire, having money taken out of the first few pay checks and kept by the company as a refundable deposit on return of the equipment or any number of ways I suppose you could set that up.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 19, 2014 9:34:04 GMT -5
Or, there may be a way to withhold the last paycheck, deduct the amount of the computer based on whatever you agreed on hire, having money taken out of the first few pay checks and kept by the company as a refundable deposit on return of the equipment or any number of ways I suppose you could set that up. Do not try this unless you have a signed agreement from the employee authorizing that deduction. Payroll deductions that the employee disputes and for which there's no documentation are one of those areas that states and labor departments are quick to get involved with no matter how small the dollar amount.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 19, 2014 9:48:13 GMT -5
Or, there may be a way to withhold the last paycheck, deduct the amount of the computer based on whatever you agreed on hire, having money taken out of the first few pay checks and kept by the company as a refundable deposit on return of the equipment or any number of ways I suppose you could set that up. Do not try this unless you have a signed agreement from the employee authorizing that deduction. Payroll deductions that the employee disputes and for which there's no documentation are one of those areas that states and labor departments are quick to get involved with no matter how small the dollar amount. Yeah- this would be just asking for trouble. He's obviously working for someone else, likes the office we bought him, and wants to keep it. Is that wrong? Yes. However, doing something equally foolish is not the way to handle people like this. My philosophy is this: if someone harms you, takes advantage of you, steals from you, or otherwise backbites, backstabs, or causes you harm; just smile, wish them well, send them on their way, and then never do business with them again. Ever. My company is built on a strong moral foundation, and my network is made up of people who are full of integrity. I never have to give a bad review of someone, because long before anyone has asked the people I do business with will have already sniffed them out. Sometimes it just comes down to ego, and this guy's ego wants a "win", and I'm going to let him have his little victory. It is almost always counterproductive getting into a tussle with these kinds of people. Wrestling with pigs and what not.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Dec 19, 2014 10:37:43 GMT -5
I'm still wondering how much personal and "work" stuff he had on the equipment you wiped. Don't suppose that will ever be known though.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Dec 19, 2014 17:49:09 GMT -5
...:::"But to claim he somehow magically owns my company property by virtue of possession being 9/10ths of the law was a rather short-sighted action on his part.":::...
Definitely this. Just another "humanity is doomed" moment.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 20, 2014 0:25:38 GMT -5
I'm still wondering how much personal and "work" stuff he had on the equipment you wiped. Don't suppose that will ever be known though. It's a cloud world now. You can wipe the computer, get your computer back all you want- but in the meantime, all those that work for you with access to files can keep anything they darn well please.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Dec 20, 2014 7:33:11 GMT -5
Or, there may be a way to withhold the last paycheck, deduct the amount of the computer based on whatever you agreed on hire, having money taken out of the first few pay checks and kept by the company as a refundable deposit on return of the equipment or any number of ways I suppose you could set that up. Do not try this unless you have a signed agreement from the employee authorizing that deduction. Payroll deductions that the employee disputes and for which there's no documentation are one of those areas that states and labor departments are quick to get involved with no matter how small the dollar amount. Well duh. I said this all needs to be agreed to and SPELLED out on hire.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 16, 2015 9:57:53 GMT -5
Anyhoo- my attorney thought it would be wise to send a demand letter for the entire list of property, and a reminder re: the intellectual property and non-compete agreements. So, a few weeks back that's what we did. Yesterday I got a UPS package containing the laptop and a tablet (that I forgot I bought). Inside was a letter requesting to keep the remaining property in exchange for a mutual release. I guess my attorney got his attorney's attention. All's well that ends well. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/cool.png)
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