Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Dec 11, 2014 17:16:36 GMT -5
Do desks and chairs even have serial numbers? Depends. Is the company taking the depreciation on the assets? If the office furniture and electronic gadgets are old enough they may have little value for the company -- OTHER than the data/info/software on the devices. I'd assume the employer would want any employer issued cell phones/computers (as it's got software that's probably liscenced the employer and they may want to 'reuse' that liscenced software for the next employee). I'd think desks, chairs, lamps, office supplies are 'worthless' to the employer and it would be up to the former employee to deal with them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2014 19:19:01 GMT -5
I would say you got the response you deserve.
Your separation agreement is really a "You can't apply for unemployment" plus who knows what other nasty non-compete, etc. You want it signed and are taking a hard stance by cutting him off early now as it has something YOU want. So while you act like your being nice, in reality you are screwing him over (6 weeks severance probably doesn't equal 6-12 months of unemployment) and costs you less than the resulting premium increase you will get.
Your employee could have played it smoother. Like responded and stated he needed lawyer review (don't know if you had an expiration clause after so many hours). If you didn't have an expiration, then he could just keep delaying and getting paid but never actually sign.
Personally, I would never sign anything if an employer was stating intention to terminate my employment. Frankly I take that stance when I quit. There only needs to be 1 signed document to end the W2 employment (employee resignation letter if they are quitting or employer termination letter if they are firing/laying off). I can guarantee that what ever the offer is, it is less than I deserve as otherwise the company wouldn't need the signature.
As for his response to company equipment, every place I have worked has placed asset tags on any item considered company property that must be returned (yes even my uniforms had a property of xxx-#yyy), all other items are considered a "gift". So company purchased jackets or shirts that didn't have the uniform property tag were mine to keep as they were a gift during employment.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 11, 2014 19:47:25 GMT -5
I would say you got the response you deserve. Your separation agreement is really a "You can't apply for unemployment" plus who knows what other nasty non-compete, etc. You want it signed and are taking a hard stance by cutting him off early now as it has something YOU want. So while you act like your being nice, in reality you are screwing him over (6 weeks severance probably doesn't equal 6-12 months of unemployment) and costs you less than the resulting premium increase you will get. Your employee could have played it smoother. Like responded and stated he needed lawyer review (don't know if you had an expiration clause after so many hours). If you didn't have an expiration, then he could just keep delaying and getting paid but never actually sign. Personally, I would never sign anything if an employer was stating intention to terminate my employment. Frankly I take that stance when I quit. There only needs to be 1 signed document to end the W2 employment (employee resignation letter if they are quitting or employer termination letter if they are firing/laying off). I can guarantee that what ever the offer is, it is less than I deserve as otherwise the company wouldn't need the signature. As for his response to company equipment, every place I have worked has placed asset tags on any item considered company property that must be returned (yes even my uniforms had a property of xxx-#yyy), all other items are considered a "gift". So company purchased jackets or shirts that didn't have the uniform property tag were mine to keep as they were a gift during employment. You seem to know an awful lot about a document you've never even seen!
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Dec 12, 2014 23:42:28 GMT -5
Are you in an at will state? In my state, you can be terminated just because with no notice.
I would definitely get the laptop back.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 13, 2014 0:25:06 GMT -5
I would say you got the response you deserve. Your separation agreement is really a "You can't apply for unemployment" plus who knows what other nasty non-compete, etc. You want it signed and are taking a hard stance by cutting him off early now as it has something YOU want. So while you act like your being nice, in reality you are screwing him over (6 weeks severance probably doesn't equal 6-12 months of unemployment) and costs you less than the resulting premium increase you will get. Your employee could have played it smoother. Like responded and stated he needed lawyer review (don't know if you had an expiration clause after so many hours). If you didn't have an expiration, then he could just keep delaying and getting paid but never actually sign. Personally, I would never sign anything if an employer was stating intention to terminate my employment. Frankly I take that stance when I quit. There only needs to be 1 signed document to end the W2 employment (employee resignation letter if they are quitting or employer termination letter if they are firing/laying off). I can guarantee that what ever the offer is, it is less than I deserve as otherwise the company wouldn't need the signature. As for his response to company equipment, every place I have worked has placed asset tags on any item considered company property that must be returned (yes even my uniforms had a property of xxx-#yyy), all other items are considered a "gift". So company purchased jackets or shirts that didn't have the uniform property tag were mine to keep as they were a gift during employment. This employee was W-2 commission-only as I've said. I chose to pay a base salary, set him up with a home office, and cover those expenses because I wanted to ensure he was focused on selling professionally, not out of desperation to cover expenses. I've worked commission-only jobs, and it's bullshit that a person should have to pay to work for someone else- where their first sale or few sales go just to pay for the tools necessary to do the job. For awhile, he did very well. He averaged $6,600 per month for us-- some months hitting in excess of $12,000. If he serviced the client himself, he kept 60% of that- and he usually did just that. However, for most of this year he's produced nothing. In fact, I haven't paid over $1,400 a month to him since January, and I haven't paid a commission in months. I sent him a few emails asking what's up. He stopped attending our weekly conference calls back in September, never responded to my communications, or returned phone calls. I drew up what I thought was a Christmas present under the circumstances. We already have non-disclosure, non-circumvent so I've no need of that. I'm pretty sure he can still file for unemployment if he takes the severance, though given his commission status and lack of production, he probably wouldn't see much by way of unemployment benefits. Bear in mind, Florida is At-Will, so he's not entitled to severance. I did ask for a covenant not to sue which is pretty standard in these kinds of agreements, and the agreement stated that the separation was mutually agreed upon-- not sure if that affects unemployment or not. Like I said UE is not that big a concern. As far as company property being a 'gift' that's pretty well what we do, though we need to formally agree to it or it gives our accountant headaches. We don't want his 2011 laptop back, we could care less about the phone. The fact is that we have full administrative control of both, and we've already wiped them remotely, and canceled our software licenses-- including the Windows operating system, and Microsoft Office software. I don't know how all of that works, but my IT guy gets it done every time like a magician. Our main two pieces of software are web-based, so there's no data transferred to the user's computer-- you have to log in to access anything, and you can upload, but never download- or so they tell me. We don't have anything super-sensitive, but an additional consideration is that we're in a licensed field and any monkey business has the potential of costing a person their license and thus their livelihood.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Dec 13, 2014 17:46:28 GMT -5
You are entitled to your property. Why bother, though? You've basically rendered his laptop useless, gave hum an old phone where he will have to buy a data plan and get a new SIM card, and the value of used office furniture is $2.76.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Dec 13, 2014 23:38:41 GMT -5
Laptop is useless. So let him file for unemployment. You are correct that you don't have to pay severance in an at will state unless you want to do so. He screwed himself. He most already be doing something on the side if he wasn't producing work for you. He pretty much quit you in September when he stopped with the weekly phone calls and became unresponsive to you. Should have fired him then.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Dec 13, 2014 23:52:42 GMT -5
I am wondering what is it exactly that you sell and will you hire me? You get a whole home office furnished that you don't have to return. You make 6-12K per month AND you get to work from home every day?! Where do I sign?
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taz157
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Post by taz157 on Dec 13, 2014 23:54:10 GMT -5
Laptop is useless. So let him file for unemployment. You are correct that you don't have to pay severance in an at will state unless you want to do so. He screwed himself. He most already be doing something on the side if he wasn't producing work for you. He pretty much quit you in September when he stopped with the weekly phone calls and became unresponsive to you. Should have fired him then. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/yeahthat.gif)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2014 7:40:26 GMT -5
I left a small consulting firm in 2002 when work was drying up. They were in TX and I worked out of my home in NJ. I can't even remember what was in writing although the owner was pretty thorough about things like that. We agreed that I'd return the company's 3-year old laptop and the cell phone but keep the insanely heavy monitor and the office chair. It made no sense to ship them to TX. I couldn't imagine fighting them for company property.
I really hate passive-aggressive behavior such as just no longer attending teleconferences with no discussion beforehand. You did the right thing. I'd love to have seen his face when he found his computer had been wiped.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Dec 14, 2014 7:46:50 GMT -5
I am wondering what is it exactly that you sell and will you hire me? You get a whole home office furnished that you don't have to return. You make 6-12K per month AND you get to work from home every day?! Where do I sign? I'm thinking claims adjusters but I could be wrong. And the ones I know make a boat load of money but it can be "seasonal" - like when disasters hit. Then again he could be running a brothal ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/whisky.gif) JKing!
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Dec 14, 2014 7:50:24 GMT -5
To answer the original question, I (and I'm sure most here) would agree that regardless of what is in writing, employer furnished equipment that isn't explicitly called a "gift" should be returned. I don't get furniture or any of that stuff, but I most definitely will return my laptop and anything else they want (stick drives, headset...). I do, however, have a red swingline stapler, and I am SO keeping that one.
The attorney may totally be to blame, trying to drum himself up business? And as you admit, you can't really blame him for not signing since you yourself take the same stance.
Nevertheless, aren't you in the same or better position? You were going to let him keep the stuff anyway. All access was terminated anyway. You saved your business an extra month of his expenses to boot.
His douchey response aside, I think the only thing to make sure you are covered on is moving his termination up. Like you said, he probably WANTS a fight.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2014 9:25:41 GMT -5
Wonder how much personal info he had on the company cell phone and computer. I've always been pretty careful- never used my business e-mail to order merchandise or log onto LinkedIn- but of course personal numbers get stored on the company cell phone and a few personal files get stored on the company computer just because you happen to open the e-mail during the workday. Wonder how much of that he'll have to reconstruct and how many accounts he won't be able to access because he needs the company e-mail address. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/cool.png)
When I left my last employer (voluntarily but not on happy terms), I asked about keeping the company iPhone, which I'd had a little over a year. It was a 4g and 5g had just come out. They wanted $500. Yeah, right. I told 'em to keep it and bought my own 5g for $50 more.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Dec 14, 2014 10:20:56 GMT -5
I am wondering what is it exactly that you sell and will you hire me? You get a whole home office furnished that you don't have to return. You make 6-12K per month AND you get to work from home every day?! Where do I sign? I'm thinking claims adjusters but I could be wrong. And the ones I know make a boat load of money but it can be "seasonal" - like when disasters hit. Then again he could be running a brothal ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/whisky.gif) JKing! Ha ha! I did have a chance to do that several years ago. I was told I could make more for being bilingual. I had little kids at the time and couldn't be gone for long periods at a time. I really wish I could have done it, but it was just never the right time.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Dec 14, 2014 21:05:52 GMT -5
I thought about this thread more. I long for a time when "do you expect to have to return company equipment post-employment" isn't even a question that needs to be asked because the idea of keeping it is ridiculous.
It also occurred to me that maybe this guy has a better offer or another option somewhere else? Attorneys: how enforceable is a non-compete clause really in this type of situation.
I'd always heard that except in obvious IP theft or client stealing situations, you can't really stop someone from making a living in their field. I get that if this guy leaves PBPaul's company for a competitor and suddenly the competitor rolls out the exact program to the exact clients the employee was working on, then that is theft. But if he is just doing claims work for a competitor, can he really get in trouble for it?
I'd also heard that the agreement was less likely to hold up the more ridiculous and stringent it is. A friend told me that the non-compete clause from her former employer included "competitors, subsidiaries, partners, suppliers, and affiliates". That could be pretty much EVERYONE! You going to tell me I can't leave a job programming at Dell to do marketing for Coke because Dell had a contract with Coke?
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JustLurkin
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Post by JustLurkin on Dec 14, 2014 21:28:15 GMT -5
Laptop is useless. So let him file for unemployment. You are correct that you don't have to pay severance in an at will state unless you want to do so. He screwed himself. He most already be doing something on the side if he wasn't producing work for you. He pretty much quit you in September when he stopped with the weekly phone calls and became unresponsive to you. Should have fired him then. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/yeahthat.gif) Most computers now also have the option of some back-end software on it where you go to a site, enter the code provided for the computer and when the computer is detected on the internet the hard drive will erase. My last employer made a big deal of making sure it was enabled on each computer but never let us activate it ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif) I think most employees thought it was a joke line in the agreement, but it was real! ETA: And as far as furniture, you just get an engraver and place company identification somewhere on it. Not that that deters people, #1 item I am always missing is a surge protector that has in permanent marker in huge lettering up both sides "This belongs in the Your Money forum, do not remove." Why on Earth would someone want that $5 strip in their living room? ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/angry.png)
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Dec 14, 2014 22:17:58 GMT -5
When I retired many years ago now, our very heavy laptops were new. My federal agency had started allowing to us to work form home, but we provided our own office furnishings etc. The laptops did not connect to the internet. I returned the laptop and printer that had been issued to me. Boss said to keep my well stocked briefcase. I still have the stapler. You can't buy them like that any more. Best stapler I've ever had. Most everything else is long gone.
We had to buy our own cell phones, but got an exceptional rate. I, stupidly, told them I had retired. A friend of mine never told the company and kept the rate until analog phones could no longer be used.
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andreawick
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Post by andreawick on Dec 15, 2014 10:21:41 GMT -5
I believe you can at least send him a 1099 for the value of the items he kept. It won't really do anything, other than insult him.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 17, 2014 9:22:07 GMT -5
You are entitled to your property. Why bother, though? You've basically rendered his laptop useless, gave hum an old phone where he will have to buy a data plan and get a new SIM card, and the value of used office furniture is $2.76. You sum it up pretty well. That's why I'm not chasing the guy down.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Dec 17, 2014 9:23:42 GMT -5
You are entitled to your property. Why bother, though? You've basically rendered his laptop useless, gave hum an old phone where he will have to buy a data plan and get a new SIM card, and the value of used office furniture is $2.76. You sum it up pretty well. That's why I'm not chasing the guy down. That's part of my job. Talking people down from throwing good money after bad and driving themselves nuts with stupid lawsuits.
In the immortal words of Elsa, "Let it go."
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 17, 2014 9:26:57 GMT -5
Laptop is useless. So let him file for unemployment. You are correct that you don't have to pay severance in an at will state unless you want to do so. He screwed himself. He most already be doing something on the side if he wasn't producing work for you. He pretty much quit you in September when he stopped with the weekly phone calls and became unresponsive to you. Should have fired him then. Yeah, I know. I'll admit that most of this year I haven't done a great job of keeping a handle on the business. I've been spending a lot of time getting new clients and putting new business in the pipeline. I'm not where I want to be on revenue and profitability for this yet, but my aim is to hire a VP and get some help running the business- and I'll be truly happy if the whole thing would just run itself and I spent my time schmoozing current and prospective clients.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 17, 2014 9:27:49 GMT -5
You sum it up pretty well. That's why I'm not chasing the guy down. That's part of my job. Talking people down from throwing good money after bad and driving themselves nuts with stupid lawsuits.
In the immortal words of Elsa, "Let it go."
I thought your job was to get people amped up so you can bill them. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/sarcasm.png)
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Dec 17, 2014 9:29:32 GMT -5
That's part of my job. Talking people down from throwing good money after bad and driving themselves nuts with stupid lawsuits.
In the immortal words of Elsa, "Let it go."
I thought your job was to get people amped up so you can bill them. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/sarcasm.png) No. I don't need the hassle.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Dec 17, 2014 9:46:43 GMT -5
I think this is a situation most of us have not been in. Its one thing to work from home and have the employer's office nearby, its a different animal if you work from home and your employer is not close.
Paul hasn't said how he set it up, but I think a good strategy for the future might be post paid mailing labels and possibly boxes as well for electronics he wants returned from employees. If you get laid off, your first thought is not going to be boxing up and spending $10 or more in postage to ship back electronics to your former employer.
The details of the situation have been vague, so I could be on the wrong track. Paul could have an office manned during business hours close to this former employee making the return of equipment easier and cheaper than boxing & shipping.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 17, 2014 9:49:14 GMT -5
I thought your job was to get people amped up so you can bill them. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/sarcasm.png) No. I don't need the hassle. Not only that, clients who are nutso like that (spend $100 to get back $1) are the exactly clients you don't want or need. Let them self-select and go be someone else's PITA client.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Dec 17, 2014 10:28:34 GMT -5
He's hoping you don't have documentation so he can cash in on keeping your property. That sort of tactic might net him a little money but cost him future, more lucrative opportunities. Unfortunately, people tend to focus on tactics not strategy and end up losing in the long run.
People are stupid. Well, given I was going to pay him (and his internet and phone) until the end of January, and I just cut him off yesterday- it's tough to see how he nets out- even in the short term- with used office furniture / equipment? It might be that he was putting his effort working for someone else or some other business and using your resources to do it. No commission checks for a year? There's a good chance that he was doing something else.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 17, 2014 15:01:50 GMT -5
Well, given I was going to pay him (and his internet and phone) until the end of January, and I just cut him off yesterday- it's tough to see how he nets out- even in the short term- with used office furniture / equipment? It might be that he was putting his effort working for someone else or some other business and using your resources to do it. No commission checks for a year? There's a good chance that he was doing something else. That's my thought. The fact is that I have brought on so much new business this year, I didn't even stop to notice he wasn't doing anything. I was a little peeved about the no-show, no-call on the weekly calls in September, and that's what got me to stop and take note of what he was (wasn't) doing.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 17, 2014 15:02:44 GMT -5
No. I don't need the hassle. Not only that, clients who are nutso like that (spend $100 to get back $1) are the exactly clients you don't want or need. Let them self-select and go be someone else's PITA client. I hear you both. I'd never make it as a litigator. I'd definitely have one in-house, though. I just wouldn't want to be that guy.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 19:20:45 GMT -5
This employee was W-2 commission-only as I've said. I chose to pay a base salary, set him up with a home office, and cover those expenses because I wanted to ensure he was focused on selling professionally, not out of desperation to cover expenses. I've worked commission-only jobs, and it's bullshit that a person should have to pay to work for someone else- where their first sale or few sales go just to pay for the tools necessary to do the job. For awhile, he did very well. He averaged $6,600 per month for us-- some months hitting in excess of $12,000. If he serviced the client himself, he kept 60% of that- and he usually did just that. However, for most of this year he's produced nothing. In fact, I haven't paid over $1,400 a month to him since January, and I haven't paid a commission in months. I sent him a few emails asking what's up. He stopped attending our weekly conference calls back in September, never responded to my communications, or returned phone calls. I drew up what I thought was a Christmas present under the circumstances. We already have non-disclosure, non-circumvent so I've no need of that. I'm pretty sure he can still file for unemployment if he takes the severance, though given his commission status and lack of production, he probably wouldn't see much by way of unemployment benefits. Bear in mind, Florida is At-Will, so he's not entitled to severance. I did ask for a covenant not to sue which is pretty standard in these kinds of agreements, and the agreement stated that the separation was mutually agreed upon-- not sure if that affects unemployment or not. Like I said UE is not that big a concern. As far as company property being a 'gift' that's pretty well what we do, though we need to formally agree to it or it gives our accountant headaches. We don't want his 2011 laptop back, we could care less about the phone. The fact is that we have full administrative control of both, and we've already wiped them remotely, and canceled our software licenses-- including the Windows operating system, and Microsoft Office software. I don't know how all of that works, but my IT guy gets it done every time like a magician. Our main two pieces of software are web-based, so there's no data transferred to the user's computer-- you have to log in to access anything, and you can upload, but never download- or so they tell me. We don't have anything super-sensitive, but an additional consideration is that we're in a licensed field and any monkey business has the potential of costing a person their license and thus their livelihood. Ok, so if he was fully commissioned based, and you have not paid him more than $1,400 a month in the last 6 months, he really didn't lose anything (considering he used to pull in 6-12K/month). Plus if he didn't do any additional work for you he wouldn't get any commission anyway. Why would he bring on a new client knowing he is basically fired, might as well just plan on finding better income for himself. Benefit Paul: Gets to feel good Benefit Employee: No much based on current commission levels. I still don't see where the employee gets any value out of signing your document. I see how it benefits Paul's company, but have not seen how it helps the "employee" any. The employee already is not getting a good review from Paul (even if all Paul did was confirm employment dates). You offered him $1,400-2,100 in salary over 6 weeks, a bunch of worthless office equipment (even per your assessment, which is why you don't want to collect it), ~$200-400 in internet/phone. Paul gets potential to refuse unemployment insurance claim (may or may not be worth much, although in my state it maxes at ~$340/wk, so the employee could max out for 6 months = $8,160 with only a $1,400/mo income versus Paul's offer of $2,100), releasing any claim to sue (even if I never intended to sue, with existing non-compete and non-disclosures in place I would never sign this as it would not let me counter sue if Paul decided to sue me for default of one of those even though I was following them). Seems like his employee read and it came across that the company was trying to "screw" him over in some manner and as such responded in a nasty manner.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 19:34:23 GMT -5
You seem to know an awful lot about a document you've never even seen! I didn't need to see it to give Paul a potential reason he got such a nasty and entitled response. I was answering his question of why the employee seemed to think he now needed to prove ownership of company equipment as Paul terminates employment. See my recent post above to Paul's additionally provided information of the document. Per my calculations Paul was offering ~$3,000 while potentially preventing the employee getting ~$8,000. I realize Florida may have different laws than my state, but when Paul asks why he got such a nasty response, I think that can be deserved when you are potentially trying to screw someone out of $5,000. I realize Paul didn't check the law (his mistake prior to writing the letter), but he could accidentally be offering something that Paul sees as a "gift" but the employee sees as a "screw you over" type letter. If this was to me in my state, I would read it as a "screw me over" type letter where I could get unemployment in my state by showing that sales have dropped off and I am being laid off (not fired). Even if it is my job to get those sales, without any disciplinary action prior to this event, it was just a downturn in business and thus a layoff.
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