ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Dec 5, 2014 22:11:15 GMT -5
Eric Garner is the Gentle Giant which Michael Brown was not. Once again, the media and the Left choose the wrong cases to make hay out of. This man DID have his hands up. This man was not doing anything violent or worthy of being killed. Yes, when people tackle you, your natural reaction is going to be to buck against that especially if you are being choked. This really should be the test case right here. And, how this did not result in an indictment is shocking. You keep defending him as a "gentle giant". He'd previously had over 30 arrests, including assault,resisting arrest, and grand larceny - as well as several misdemeanor charges.
He wasn't the "innocent victim" you wish to portray him as:blog.acton.org/archives/74417-explainer-know-eric-garner-case.html.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 22:50:47 GMT -5
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 5, 2014 22:52:20 GMT -5
And all of that is irrelevant- he could have had 100 arrests. This is about how the police acted and the use of a chokehold that killed a person.
That reminds of that bullshit last year- Trayvon Martin was late for school, had pot in his system, etc. The need for so many in this country to attack the victim speaks volumes.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Dec 5, 2014 23:06:11 GMT -5
My mistake - why dare drag facts into it?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 23:27:22 GMT -5
I wish people (including the media) would quit mis-classifying it as a "choke hold" problem. He died because of "positional asphyxiation".
For those that don't know:
Did it happen while he was being restrained by the police? The on-set of it, most certainly. Is it a tragedy that it happened? Most definitely. But that doesn't mean we need to blame the wrong person or situation.
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Post by Shooby on Dec 6, 2014 8:56:57 GMT -5
Eric Garner is the Gentle Giant which Michael Brown was not. Once again, the media and the Left choose the wrong cases to make hay out of. This man DID have his hands up. This man was not doing anything violent or worthy of being killed. Yes, when people tackle you, your natural reaction is going to be to buck against that especially if you are being choked. This really should be the test case right here. And, how this did not result in an indictment is shocking. You keep defending him as a "gentle giant". He'd previously had over 30 arrests, including assault,resisting arrest, and grand larceny - as well as several misdemeanor charges.
He wasn't the "innocent victim" you wish to portray him as:blog.acton.org/archives/74417-explainer-know-eric-garner-case.html. He was selling cigarettes. Big whoop. He didn't grab a cop's gun or rough up a store clerk or punch anyone. These cases have a completely different set of facts. However even in Ferguson I believe that other options could have been used instead.
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Post by Value Buy on Dec 6, 2014 9:26:57 GMT -5
Now Wal Mart got dragged into this mess. NBC Chicago local news reported last night that Wal Mart has pulled an ad showing a young black child hugging her dad very hard after receiving a Christmas present from him. He jokingly said, I can't breath, (from the hug). The child portrayed was probably under 12 years old, the father slightly overweight, but was a charming loving family moment. People complained it brought thoughts of the NYC case to mind and was inappropriate. Wal Mart agreed to pull the ad, and said will adjust the dialogue.
Not that this really has to do with the case, but sometimes it just gets a little out of hand as far as political correctness goes.
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 6, 2014 9:37:06 GMT -5
Now Wal Mart got dragged into this mess. NBC Chicago local news reported last night that Wal Mart has pulled an ad showing a young black child hugging her dad very hard after receiving a Christmas present from him. He jokingly said, I can't breath, (from the hug). The child portrayed was probably under 12 years old, the father slightly overweight, but was a charming loving family moment. People complained it brought thoughts of the NYC case to mind and was inappropriate. Wal Mart agreed to pull the ad, and said will adjust the dialogue.
Not that this really has to do with the case, but sometimes it just gets a little out of hand as far as political correctness goes. VB-how has Walmart pulling the ad directly affected your life? It is not as if that family-oriented Christmas ad is the only one which will be on TV or in print this Christmas season. .
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 6, 2014 10:08:31 GMT -5
... Not that this really has to do with the case, but sometimes it just gets a little out of hand as far as political correctness goes. A large corporation made a business decision that an ad would not have its desired effect of making them money. Sometimes it just gets a little out of hand as far as what some people label "political correctness".
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 11:40:28 GMT -5
If that's the criteria to post an opinion this board is going to get awfully slow.
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2014 13:21:27 GMT -5
My mistake - why dare drag facts into it? EVT1 is right. it doesn't matter if EG was an angel or a devil. it has no bearing whatsoever, unless you can show it was a factor in this case. this has to do with arrest tactics. they can be judged without consideration for the victim. in fact, it would be best to assume he was an angel, and ask if that is how you would want an angel treated. i realize that is a high standard, but cops have a rather high bar to clear, imo.
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2014 13:24:41 GMT -5
I wish people (including the media) would quit mis-classifying it as a "choke hold" problem. He died because of "positional asphyxiation". For those that don't know: Did it happen while he was being restrained by the police? The on-set of it, most certainly. Is it a tragedy that it happened? Most definitely. But that doesn't mean we need to blame the wrong person or situation. question: are choke holds legal in NYC? is there anything else we need to discuss?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 15:06:14 GMT -5
Isn't choke hold the slang term for positional asphyxiation?
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Dec 6, 2014 15:18:45 GMT -5
No - it's a wrestling hold - it's used as restraint both in the sport of wrestling, and sometimes by police officers for restraining someone who's resisting arrest.
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Frappuccino
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Post by Frappuccino on Dec 6, 2014 15:47:25 GMT -5
It would be interesting to see a Youtube of an officer chokeholding someone getting on the ground like they were told the first time. Or, maybe a video of a cop telling someone to put their hands up and then shooting the guy in the face after he complied the first time. All of the outrage is over someone who refused to comply with the cops orders. This would never happen to me because i would get down on the ground the first time a cop told me to.
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 6, 2014 16:13:12 GMT -5
... All of the outrage is over someone who refused to comply with the cops orders. This would never happen to me because i would get down on the ground the first time a cop told me to. Damn Godwin.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 16:29:55 GMT -5
I wish people (including the media) would quit mis-classifying it as a "choke hold" problem. He died because of "positional asphyxiation". For those that don't know: Did it happen while he was being restrained by the police? The on-set of it, most certainly. Is it a tragedy that it happened? Most definitely. But that doesn't mean we need to blame the wrong person or situation. question: are choke holds legal in NYC?is there anything else we need to discuss? Answer: Irrelevant, because he DIDN'T use a "choke hold". That's a media misrepresentation (that, admittedly, they might have caught by a witness misinterpretation... but they just cannot let go of. Kind of like some people here can't let go of it).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 16:31:06 GMT -5
Isn't choke hold the slang term for positional asphyxiation? No. Choke hold is a hold that binds up the neck in such a manner to choke (usually by pressure to the esophagus) the person being held.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 6, 2014 16:44:54 GMT -5
question: are choke holds legal in NYC?is there anything else we need to discuss? Answer: Irrelevant, because he DIDN'T use a "choke hold". ...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 17:16:09 GMT -5
That's NOT a choke hold? What does a choke hold look like?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 17:18:15 GMT -5
This is what came up when I googled choke hold They look the same to me
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2014 17:26:19 GMT -5
Isn't choke hold the slang term for positional asphyxiation? nope. positional asphyxiation is a CLAIM that this guy died because he is fat, and was being held face down into his blubber. the claim is irrelevant if the choke hold is illegal.
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2014 17:27:46 GMT -5
question: are choke holds legal in NYC?is there anything else we need to discuss? Answer: Irrelevant, because he DIDN'T use a "choke hold". yeah he did. i have been held in a choke hold before. what is on the video is a choke hold. here we go again, Richard. you are presented with facts, and you are arguing that the facts don't exist.That's a media misrepresentation (that, admittedly, they might have caught by a witness misinterpretation... but they just cannot let go of. Kind of like some people here can't let go of it). forgive me for saying so, but this is nonsense. this is a fact, not an interpretation.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 6, 2014 17:50:01 GMT -5
Isn't choke hold the slang term for positional asphyxiation? No. Choke hold is a hold that binds up the neck in such a manner to choke (usually by pressure to the esophagus) the person being held. A choke hold can refer to different techniques. The NYPD banned all of them.
www.nytimes.com/1993/11/24/nyregion/kelly-bans-choke-holds-by-officers.html
In 1980, under the threat of several lawsuits, Los Angeles banned the use of one especially lethal choke hold -- called the bar-arm hold, which cuts off the air supply by crushing the larynx -- and many large police departments followed suit, Professor Fyfe said. In many cases, the departments also banned or restricted use of a less dangerous hold, the carotid hold, which compresses the carotid arteries in the neck and temporarily cuts off blood to the brain.
Chief Timoney said the city policy specifically did not distinguish between various types of holds, but rather banned them categorically. It also prohibited other restraints or tactics -- like standing on a suspect's chest or transporting a suspect in a face-down position -- which might impede breathing.
"Basically, stay the hell away from the neck," he said. "That's what it says."
Any questions?
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 6, 2014 17:59:44 GMT -5
Compare the two statements:
Chief Timoney said the city policy specifically did not distinguish between various types of holds, but rather banned them categorically. It also prohibited other restraints or tactics -- like standing on a suspect's chest or transporting a suspect in a face-down position -- which might impede breathing
www.nytimes.com/2014/08/02/nyregion/staten-island-man-died-from-officers-chokehold-autopsy-finds.html
But the medical examiner’s office was clear in the cause of his death, finding he died from “compression of neck (choke hold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police.”
The trifecta. This is not even debatable- facts are facts. A neck does not compress itself, a chest does not compress itself- police did that in violation of their own policies.
In a civil lawsuit this is negligence per se, they violated regulations put out to prevent the exact kind of harm that occurred- easy win.
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2014 18:22:12 GMT -5
none of this shit matters, actually. it doesn't even matter if he died from a HEART ATTACK.
the reason why is from CRIMINAL LAW. the standard is this: what was the procuring cause of death?
if the police aggravated or contributed to it in ANY WAY, they are at fault because THEY WERE IN CHARGE.
if he were left alone he would still be alive. the NYPD is to blame for his death.
i am sure that they are building their case on whether it was JUSTIFIED or not, but the fact that they killed him is indisputable. the fact that they used illegal techniques is ALSO indisputable.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 19:16:29 GMT -5
Answer: Irrelevant, because he DIDN'T use a "choke hold". yeah he did. i have been held in a choke hold before. what is on the video is a choke hold. here we go again, Richard. you are presented with facts, and you are arguing that the facts don't exist.That's a media misrepresentation (that, admittedly, they might have caught by a witness misinterpretation... but they just cannot let go of. Kind of like some people here can't let go of it). forgive me for saying so, but this is nonsense. this is a fact, not an interpretation. We saw the same video. You saw a choke hold because the Media told you that's what you saw. I saw an arm lock take-down that doesn't involve choking (which is what it was) because I helped train some police officers on that exact same take-down procedure in a co-venture with the Rescue Squad that I worked on. You are the one arguing facts that don't exist.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 19:21:32 GMT -5
none of this shit matters, actually. it doesn't even matter if he died from a HEART ATTACK. the reason why is from CRIMINAL LAW. the standard is this: what was the procuring cause of death? if the police aggravated or contributed to it in ANY WAY, they are at fault because THEY WERE IN CHARGE. if he were left alone he would still be alive. the NYPD is to blame for his death. i am sure that they are building their case on whether it was JUSTIFIED or not, but the fact that they killed him is indisputable. the fact that they used illegal techniques is ALSO indisputable.Except for the bolded (which is bullcrap), I agree with everything you said. An arm lock take-down may be disallowed by the NYPD under their guidelines, but that doesn't make it illegal. Only the state legislature or the federal government can make something illegal. Who is posting things that don't exist? That would be you. Proof right here.
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2014 20:03:58 GMT -5
forgive me for saying so, but this is nonsense. this is a fact, not an interpretation. We saw the same video. You saw a choke hold because the Media told you that's what you saw. I saw an arm lock take-down that doesn't involve choking (which is what it was) because I helped train some police officers on that exact same take-down procedure in a co-venture with the Rescue Squad that I worked on. You are the one arguing facts that don't exist. huh. i did martial arts training, and they called what is in the video a choke hold. and by the way, you are 100% wrong about the media bias part of your argument. i didn't see it in "the media". i read NO articles on it. the only discussion i have participated in about it is this one. so, if YOU are "the media", then yeah, i got it from the media. but thanks for convincing me that we can't enjoy a reasonable discussion. good night.
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2014 20:05:48 GMT -5
none of this shit matters, actually. it doesn't even matter if he died from a HEART ATTACK. the reason why is from CRIMINAL LAW. the standard is this: what was the procuring cause of death? if the police aggravated or contributed to it in ANY WAY, they are at fault because THEY WERE IN CHARGE. if he were left alone he would still be alive. the NYPD is to blame for his death. i am sure that they are building their case on whether it was JUSTIFIED or not, but the fact that they killed him is indisputable. the fact that they used illegal techniques is ALSO indisputable.Except for the bolded (which is bullcrap), I agree with everything you said. i thought that banned techniques were illegal. therefore, i was using these as synonyms. if that is NOT correct, then it would appear that this "bullcrap" amounted to a misunderstanding. hooray?
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