b2r
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:35:25 GMT -5
Posts: 7,257
|
Post by b2r on Nov 28, 2014 15:49:51 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 28, 2014 16:06:57 GMT -5
Just because there are open carry laws, it does NOT mean that brandishing a firearm is going to be taken lightly. These are 2 different situations. Tam was brandishing a weapon, which is displaying your weapon with what looks like the apparent intent to shoot it. Because someone is open carrying, that is not brandishing.
|
|
mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on Nov 28, 2014 16:13:41 GMT -5
I'm with you, @tiki. I imagine the boy took the orange marker off himself so his bb gun would look more like a real gun. He's just a little boy and little boys don't think. They just do. It would never occur to him that something like this could result from him removing the orange marker from the toy. Heck, it would never occur to me; however, I'd not have let him do it. If I found he'd done it, he wouldn't have had the gun anymore. It's supposed to look like a toy because that's what it is.
|
|
b2r
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:35:25 GMT -5
Posts: 7,257
|
Post by b2r on Nov 28, 2014 16:37:46 GMT -5
I swear I heard in one of the interviews with Cleveland Police Deputy Chief Edward Tomba that Tamir never removed the toy from his waistband when police arrived, but merely raised his shirt before he was gunned down. So it would not matter if it had an orange tip or not. Of course I can't seem to locate that video now.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,514
|
Post by Tennesseer on Nov 28, 2014 17:26:12 GMT -5
I swear I heard in one of the interviews with Cleveland Police Deputy Chief Edward Tomba that Tamir never removed the toy from his waistband when police arrived, but merely raised his shirt before he was gunned down. So it would not matter if it had an orange tip or not. Of course I can't seem to locate that video now. Videos and quotes located in articles of news sources are often edited out or deleted when found to be untrue in nature. Maybe that is the reason you cannot locate your video now?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 5, 2024 9:32:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2014 18:45:22 GMT -5
... A police officer doesn't have the time to assess whether a gun might be real or fake - their first response is to stop any imminent threat of a real weapon. ... So do you support "see gun - shoot to kill"? When it comes to a police officer... I support: > see gun. > order person to drop gun. > if person does anything OTHER THAN "drop gun" (like wave it around, or point it at police officer in question, or point it at other people)... shoot person*. > exception: if the person looks frozen in indecision/fear/shock, and the gun is pointed in a safe direction {like, at the ground, for example}, don't shoot until the gun IS pointed in an unsafe direction. "Drop it" is NOT a difficult command to understand. *and when I say "shoot person" I mean shoot to hit "center mass". Hopefully the person won't die (there's LOTS of places in "center mass" that aren't fatal), but if they die, that's their fault for not dropping their weapon.
|
|
Bonny
Junior Associate
Joined: Nov 17, 2013 10:54:37 GMT -5
Posts: 7,437
Location: No Place Like Home!
|
Post by Bonny on Nov 28, 2014 19:21:43 GMT -5
I'm with you, @tiki. I imagine the boy took the orange marker off himself so his bb gun would look more like a real gun. He's just a little boy and little boys don't think. They just do. It would never occur to him that something like this could result from him removing the orange marker from the toy. Heck, it would never occur to me; however, I'd not have let him do it. If I found he'd done it, he wouldn't have had the gun anymore. It's supposed to look like a toy because that's what it is. Apparently it varies by state but according to Sum Dum Gai BB guns are exempt from the orange tip requirement.
Stupid, stupid, stupid situation.
|
|
mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on Nov 28, 2014 19:31:17 GMT -5
I'm with you, @tiki. I imagine the boy took the orange marker off himself so his bb gun would look more like a real gun. He's just a little boy and little boys don't think. They just do. It would never occur to him that something like this could result from him removing the orange marker from the toy. Heck, it would never occur to me; however, I'd not have let him do it. If I found he'd done it, he wouldn't have had the gun anymore. It's supposed to look like a toy because that's what it is. Apparently it varies by state but according to Sum Dum Gai BB guns are exempt from the orange tip requirement.
Stupid, stupid, stupid situation.
I'd agree. A gun is a gun and a toy gun should be identified as such. They should not be made to look like real guns. Very, very stupid!
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Nov 28, 2014 19:44:25 GMT -5
So do you support "see gun - shoot to kill"? When it comes to a police officer... I support: > see gun. > order person to drop gun. > if person does anything OTHER THAN "drop gun" (like wave it around, or point it at police officer in question, or point it at other people)... shoot person*. > exception: if the person looks frozen in indecision/fear/shock, and the gun is pointed in a safe direction {like, at the ground, for example}, don't shoot until the gun IS pointed in an unsafe direction. "Drop it" is NOT a difficult command to understand. *and when I say "shoot person" I mean shoot to hit "center mass". Hopefully the person won't die (there's LOTS of places in "center mass" that aren't fatal), but if they die, that's their fault for not dropping their weapon. So the police should have shot the old fart in the video- correct?
|
|
Bonny
Junior Associate
Joined: Nov 17, 2013 10:54:37 GMT -5
Posts: 7,437
Location: No Place Like Home!
|
Post by Bonny on Nov 28, 2014 19:45:38 GMT -5
However I will repeat what I said earlier in the thread. BB guns are dangerous too.
Some idiot shot one of my childhood cats with a BB gun and hit him in the eye and hip. He survived but was blinded in that one eye. Had the 12-year old shot someone in the head that person could have been blinded or in the temple and possibly be killed.
This was a tragic situation and truly a parental failure. You keep the guns locked up and only out with parental supervision until the child can demonstrate responsible gun ownership. And you do not point guns at people!!!
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,866
|
Post by zibazinski on Nov 28, 2014 19:50:53 GMT -5
If you're not mature enough to leave the toy markings on a toy gun or a BB gun, then you're not mature enough to have one. With any kind of weapon, even a BB gun, some judgment is in order. The fact that the boy went to a public park and was showing it off means he was too young to have it.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 5, 2024 9:32:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2014 20:06:59 GMT -5
When it comes to a police officer... I support: > see gun. > order person to drop gun. > if person does anything OTHER THAN "drop gun" (like wave it around, or point it at police officer in question, or point it at other people)... shoot person*. > exception: if the person looks frozen in indecision/fear/shock, and the gun is pointed in a safe direction {like, at the ground, for example}, don't shoot until the gun IS pointed in an unsafe direction. "Drop it" is NOT a difficult command to understand. *and when I say "shoot person" I mean shoot to hit "center mass". Hopefully the person won't die (there's LOTS of places in "center mass" that aren't fatal), but if they die, that's their fault for not dropping their weapon. So the police should have shot the old fart in the video- correct? You got me there. I'll amend my support accordingly: In the video you were referring to, supposedly the old man had crossed the street in an illegal fashion (jaywalking maybe?). The issue WASN'T his gun.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 5, 2024 9:32:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2014 20:09:58 GMT -5
If you're not mature enough to leave the toy markings on a toy gun or a BB gun, then you're not mature enough to have one. With any kind of weapon, even a BB gun, some judgment is in order. The fact that the boy went to a public park and was showing it off means he was too young to have it. I quoted that just so I could it again!
|
|
mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on Nov 28, 2014 20:29:54 GMT -5
BB guns got an exemption because they weren't classified as toys. They were classified as competition air rifles, or something like that. Don't remember exactly. California tried to ban realistic toy guns period. BB gun manufacturers and several toy companies fought it. Said kids want realistic looking guns more than fake looking guns, which is probably true because they're too young to understand the consequences of walking around in public with a gun that looks real. Anyway, the end result was BB gun manufacturers got an exception carved out, and the outright ban on realistic looking toy guns got fairly watered down. Thanks for the information. I wasn't aware of these efforts.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,866
|
Post by zibazinski on Nov 28, 2014 20:59:48 GMT -5
Stupid, just stupid. A kid is needlessly dead and a policeman lives with it.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 5, 2024 9:32:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2014 21:45:16 GMT -5
If you're not mature enough to leave the toy markings on a toy gun or a BB gun, then you're not mature enough to have one. With any kind of weapon, even a BB gun, some judgment is in order. The fact that the boy went to a public park and was showing it off means he was too young to have it. If your not mature enough to not kill a guns instructor probably you better not have a automatic gun also?
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,866
|
Post by zibazinski on Nov 28, 2014 22:09:06 GMT -5
If you're not mature enough to leave the toy markings on a toy gun or a BB gun, then you're not mature enough to have one. With any kind of weapon, even a BB gun, some judgment is in order. The fact that the boy went to a public park and was showing it off means he was too young to have it. If your not mature enough to not kill a guns instructor probably you better not have a automatic gun also i blame the gun instructor. It was dumb on the parents part but even dumber for the gun instructor. Obviously.
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Nov 28, 2014 22:54:47 GMT -5
So the police should have shot the old fart in the video- correct? You got me there. I'll amend my support accordingly: In the video you were referring to, supposedly the old man had crossed the street in an illegal fashion (jaywalking maybe?). The issue WASN'T his gun. Are you serious- the police were responding to multiple 911 calls about a man with a gun just like the other one. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand what is happening.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 5, 2024 9:32:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2014 23:57:13 GMT -5
You got me there. I'll amend my support accordingly: In the video you were referring to, supposedly the old man had crossed the street in an illegal fashion (jaywalking maybe?). The issue WASN'T his gun. Are you serious- the police were responding to multiple 911 calls about a man with a gun just like the other one. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand what is happening. Did you actually LISTEN to the on-scene discussion that the police recorded with their "on-officer mics"? Or did you just hear what you wanted to hear and ignore the rest? Yes, people called 9-1-1. I don't argue that. However, calling 9-1-1 does NOT mean anything illegal is going on. Listen to the actual commentary by the police ON-SCENE: at about 1:15 you can hear the cop telling him he crossed the street illegally, and that's why he's being "detained". at 2:15 - you can hear the cop say: "I'm not trying to violate your rights, but you were crossing the street illegally" at 2:38 - you hear the cop reply "You have the right, but you can't cross the street like that" There are more, but that's enough to prove this stop wasn't to disarm him or because the cops thought he was a threat or because he was "waving his gun around threatening people" (shouldered as it was for the entire video is NOT threatening). Those 9-1-1 callers were likely scared "OMG a GUN!!!!" anti-gun people... some of whom we actually have here on the board.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,483
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on Nov 29, 2014 0:10:50 GMT -5
... Did you actually LISTEN to the on-scene discussion ... I posted the video of this incident and the Tamir Rice incident in the same reply so that people could compare the two. A comparison of not just the visual but also the on-scene discussion would be good also.
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Nov 29, 2014 0:55:40 GMT -5
I am sure if that had been a young black man holding that rifle the police would have talked to him about the perils of jaywalking while he gave them the finger.
|
|
OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
Posts: 13,449
|
Post by OldCoyote on Nov 29, 2014 13:55:41 GMT -5
Are you kidding me, some of you are defending this police officer,
Ok, then Would there be any circumstances where a police officer might be wrong??
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 5, 2024 9:32:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2014 18:43:02 GMT -5
The problem with the Tamir Rice video is that you can't see ANYTHING about what's actually happening. it's too grainy, too far away, and Tamir is out of sight on the wrong side of the car (from the camera's point of view) when he gets shot. The video of the old guy with the shouldered rifle is clear with good audio of what the police say.
If we had video of that same quality (as that of the old man's video) of the Tamir Rice shooting, we could compare the two, but since that's not the case, we can't.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,483
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on Nov 29, 2014 18:57:10 GMT -5
The problem with the Tamir Rice video is that you can't see ANYTHING about what's actually happening. it's too grainy, too far away, and Tamir is out of sight on the wrong side of the car (from the camera's point of view) when he gets shot. The video of the old guy with the shouldered rifle is clear with good audio of what the police say. If we had video of that same quality (as that of the old man's video) of the Tamir Rice shooting, we could compare the two, but since that's not the case, we can't. We do have a clear picture of the distance that the police gave themselves and the person with the gun in the two incidents.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 5, 2024 9:32:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2014 19:48:01 GMT -5
The problem with the Tamir Rice video is that you can't see ANYTHING about what's actually happening. it's too grainy, too far away, and Tamir is out of sight on the wrong side of the car (from the camera's point of view) when he gets shot. The video of the old guy with the shouldered rifle is clear with good audio of what the police say. If we had video of that same quality (as that of the old man's video) of the Tamir Rice shooting, we could compare the two, but since that's not the case, we can't. Probably it is hard for you to see a video when your eyes are shut.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,866
|
Post by zibazinski on Nov 29, 2014 19:50:27 GMT -5
Seriously? That's just rude.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 5, 2024 9:32:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2014 20:06:04 GMT -5
The problem with the Tamir Rice video is that you can't see ANYTHING about what's actually happening. it's too grainy, too far away, and Tamir is out of sight on the wrong side of the car (from the camera's point of view) when he gets shot. The video of the old guy with the shouldered rifle is clear with good audio of what the police say. If we had video of that same quality (as that of the old man's video) of the Tamir Rice shooting, we could compare the two, but since that's not the case, we can't. Probably it is hard for you to see a video when your eyes are shut. While I would agree that that's true for anyone... my eyes were wide open while I watched (and listened) to both videos.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 5, 2024 9:32:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2014 20:08:54 GMT -5
Seriously? That's just rude. You thought it because you agree with him. You got different rules for who you agree with and who you don't agree with I mean who is right wing and who is not right wing.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 5, 2024 9:32:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2014 20:56:38 GMT -5
Seriously? That's just rude. You thought it because you agree with him. You got different rules for who you agree with and who you don't agree with I mean who is right wing and who is not right wing. You sound like some college kid who has lived off the bank of mom and dad her whole life and has no clue about the real world. You come to this country from God only knows where, judging by your avatar, some third world place, and proceed to trash this country. If things are so wonderful where you are from, go back to where it's perfect. You sound like another poster who is always bitching's sister. You do not have a CLUE about my life. I will not discuss more with a xenophobe. Good. Go home, wherever that is. You never answer any questions because you're just like another poster who gets called out for her lies. You do not have a CLUE about my life. I will not discuss more with a xenophobe. Don't let the door hit you on the ass when you leave..... Let's all back this down a notch or two, and let's keep the personal insults out of it. RichardInTN - CE Moderator.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,142
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Nov 29, 2014 20:57:39 GMT -5
In related news the Republican party can't figure out why immigrants don't support them. Republican think tanks completely baffled. It's probably a conspiracy between our Kenyan president and the leftist media. immigrants, college students, and most women. it is rapidly becoming the party of grumpy old men.
|
|