Woman Harrassed Simply By Walking in New York

[billisonboard]

Oct 31, 2014 8:37:31 GMT -5 Opti said:

... I just watched the video. And one Damn may not feel like harassment, but a pattern of lots of them does. ...
...

Which is one of the major complaints about this video. They took ten hours of video and reduced it down to show what appears to be "a pattern of lots."

[Pants]

10x an hour is not a lot?

[Tennesseer]

Oct 31, 2014 10:11:15 GMT -5 Pants said:

10x an hour is not a lot?

Let alone watching ten hours of video to see it happen in real time.

[Opti]

Oct 30, 2014 8:09:40 GMT -5 swamp said:

sometimes, it seems like whether or not something is considered harassment depends on whether or not you find the "harasser" interesting/attractive/appealing.

If you are complimented by a homeless guy, he's a creep, but if you're complimented by a hottie in a nice business suit, it's flattering.

I think this can be part of it. Like many I did not watch the video or click on

the link before posting. I finally did and watched a video lower on the page

about the actress discussing the experience.

She intentionally chose a closed off posture and facial expression to non-verbally

communicate 'I don't want to talk or interact with anyone'. Plus much was not included

especially white guys who apparently said things in areas of lots of ambient noise,

so they were not included in the shortened clip.

 

[Opti]

Oct 31, 2014 9:52:49 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Oct 31, 2014 8:37:31 GMT -5 Opti said:

... I just watched the video. And one Damn may not feel like harassment, but a pattern of lots of them does. ...
...

Which is one of the major complaints about this video. They took ten hours of video and reduced it down to show what appears to be "a pattern of lots."

I understand that complaint. They can make the 10 hours available, and let people

watch that as well. But most people wouldn't watch the whole thing, so a clip was

made to highlight some of the issues.

[Opti]

Oct 31, 2014 10:14:57 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Oct 31, 2014 10:11:15 GMT -5 Pants said:

10x an hour is not a lot?

Let alone watching ten hours of video to see it happen in real time.

Most people want to minimize the problem because they don't get how this

links up to bigger problems including violence towards females and males.

Its easier to pretend that the status quo does not lead to things like a young

kid feeling rejected by his former GF going on a school shooting spree.

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"It also seems that they purposely chose a specific area of the City to do their test in. I'd be interested to see if they got the same results filming in the Upper East Side. I doubt it.":::...

Boom.  I watched the video with another New Yorker.  She walks by Port Authority, by named (not numbered) streets, and quite possibly in Harlem (wider streets, shorter buildings, and diagonal crossing).  She walks by a place advertising $30 tattoos.  And there is a striking... commonality in the people catcalling her.  She passes through industrial areas.  I didn't see her walking on Wall Street, or by Saks or anything.

...:::"...while walking in a very non sexy way...":::...

This makes for an interesting debate.  There are some body types that can't NOT look attractive, even in a "boring [skin tight] t-shirt and jeans [with lettering on the butt]".  In a sense, I get the point that this video might represent "a normal day" for a person with such a body type -- and short of wearing a garbage bag, it would be really hard for her not to look attractive.  She has an... ample chest.  That makes this situation very challenging...

I suppose to that end, my take away here is "what is the ask"?

Following her (while not illegal) is certainly an intrusion.  Making obscene comments like "oh wow, I'd love to tap that" would definitely hurt.

But if the ask is "don't look at all"... I'm not sure that is the answer either...

[Shooby]

So it is compressed over 10 hrs. 10 hrs is ONE DAY. So what? That's what filmmakers do.

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"For the.most part, men move through the world without people commenting on them simply because they exist. This is not true for women, and specifically not true for young and pretty women. They are told as they move through the world that others have a right to comment on them.":::...

Let me propose an alternate viewpoint on this one...

Once upon a time, geek-dom was not as "acceptable" as it is today.  I got lots of nonsense for wearing gamer t-shirts.  Others took it upon themselves to comment because they had their opinions or wanted to feel big or whatever.  I had two choices.  I could hide who I wanted to be.  Or I could ignore them and do what I wanted in spite of their comments.  And while it may not have been fun dealing with them, it was something I had to learn to do because it was unlikely to just stop on its own.

I'm making the above point to address specifically the accusation that men can't possibly understand.

[zibazinski]

Honestly, good luck with trying to justify the unjustifiable. This crap has gone on forever and it's just as wrong now as it has always been. Real men leave women, especially women that are alone, alone. Assholes don't because they know they can get away with this bs.

[justme]

Oct 31, 2014 10:59:38 GMT -5 8 Bit WWBG said:

...:::"For the.most part, men move through the world without people commenting on them simply because they exist. This is not true for women, and specifically not true for young and pretty women. They are told as they move through the world that others have a right to comment on them.":::...

Let me propose an alternate viewpoint on this one...

Once upon a time, geek-dom was not as "acceptable" as it is today.  I got lots of nonsense for wearing gamer t-shirts.  Others took it upon themselves to comment because they had their opinions or wanted to feel big or whatever.  I had two choices.  I could hide who I wanted to be.  Or I could ignore them and do what I wanted in spite of their comments.  And while it may not have been fun dealing with them, it was something I had to learn to do because it was unlikely to just stop on its own.

I'm making the above point to address specifically the accusation that men can't possibly understand.

So when they made those comments - what was their end game? If they got their way about their comments - what would happen?

[Opti]

WWBG, not sure if you read the entire thread, but the areas that were

cut had more ambient noise. They were probably in nicer, busier areas

where the commenters included white men.

I don't think anyone is asking don't look. But they are asking for less

commenting, less intention to engage.

I started another thread, because I personally am wondering whether

men fishing for female dates by acting this way, should expect a payoff.

Ever. Plus, just because you have an attractive body type, why does that

mean you should have to put up with more un-asked for comments versus

someone who is less attractive?

[Opti]

Oct 31, 2014 11:04:12 GMT -5 justme said:

Oct 31, 2014 10:59:38 GMT -5 8 Bit WWBG said:

...:::"For the.most part, men move through the world without people commenting on them simply because they exist. This is not true for women, and specifically not true for young and pretty women. They are told as they move through the world that others have a right to comment on them.":::...

Let me propose an alternate viewpoint on this one...

Once upon a time, geek-dom was not as "acceptable" as it is today.  I got lots of nonsense for wearing gamer t-shirts.  Others took it upon themselves to comment because they had their opinions or wanted to feel big or whatever.  I had two choices.  I could hide who I wanted to be.  Or I could ignore them and do what I wanted in spite of their comments.  And while it may not have been fun dealing with them, it was something I had to learn to do because it was unlikely to just stop on its own.

I'm making the above point to address specifically the accusation that men can't possibly understand.

So when they made those comments - what was their end game? If they got their way about their comments - what would happen?

I'm going for - he would wear a different shirt.

He probably wasn't being talked to by gays or women who wanted to clean him up,

take him home, and have their way with him.

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"Honestly, good luck with trying to justify the unjustifiable. This crap has gone on forever and it's just as wrong now as it has always been. Real men leave women, especially women that are alone, alone. Assholes don't because they know they can get away with this bs.":::...

I'm not saying I support the creepy stalking, the blatantly sexual comments, and the unwanted persistence.  For most reasonable men, that stuff isn't on the table.  I'm going back to a point made earlier about what constitutes harassment though and what the ask is.  If it is to be respectful and keep the dirt in one's head -- fine.  But if it is not to look at all... that is going to be a challenge.

...:::"So when they made those comments - what was their end game? If they got their way about their comments - what would happen?":::...

I'm not sure the end game in either case diminishes the validity that harassment can come in many forms for either sex.  In both cases (video girl and young WWBG) we got harassed for being ourselves.

FWIW, I also read one of the related articles where the mother was getting very upset about the unwanted attention her extremely attractive daughter was getting.  The looks, the checking out...

So that brings me back to what the ask is?  To be more discrete and respectful about it?

[8 Bit WWBG]

....:::"He probably wasn't being talked to by gays or women who wanted to clean him up, take him home, and have their way with him.":::...

Are you saying I can't get a gay or woman to clean me up, take me home, and have their way with me!!!! 

[Deleted]

Oct 31, 2014 10:59:38 GMT -5 8 Bit WWBG said:

...:::"For the.most part, men move through the world without people commenting on them simply because they exist. This is not true for women, and specifically not true for young and pretty women. They are told as they move through the world that others have a right to comment on them.":::...

Let me propose an alternate viewpoint on this one...

Once upon a time, geek-dom was not as "acceptable" as it is today.  I got lots of nonsense for wearing gamer t-shirts.  Others took it upon themselves to comment because they had their opinions or wanted to feel big or whatever.  I had two choices.  I could hide who I wanted to be.  Or I could ignore them and do what I wanted in spite of their comments.  And while it may not have been fun dealing with them, it was something I had to learn to do because it was unlikely to just stop on its own.

I'm making the above point to address specifically the accusation that men can't possibly understand.

Because that's the same... 

[Opti]

Oct 31, 2014 11:17:33 GMT -5 8 Bit WWBG said:

....:::"He probably wasn't being talked to by gays or women who wanted to clean him up, take him home, and have their way with him.":::...

Are you saying I can't get a gay or woman to clean me up, take me home, and have their way with me!!!! 

No, but perhaps a different t-shirt could work better - like 'I cook and clean'

just saying...

 But the big issue is you are missing why this is a important, why it is scary.

If you had been having all these comments instead from men who wanted your

bod or women who you didn't want making sexual comments it might range from

uncomfortable to scary if you believed any of them might force the issue.

And if you are a woman, you have been taught for your own safety, some will.

[justme]

So that brings me back to what the ask is? To be more discrete and respectful about it?

Not MORE discrete and respectful, JUST discrete and respect full. There's no way to make a STRANGER talking about my ass or boobs, commenting what they'd do to me if they had me at home, telling me they'd like to get some of me, calling me derogatory names, etc just a little more discrete and respectful. There's nothing discrete or respectful about those. 

[Opti]

Oct 31, 2014 11:57:45 GMT -5 Ratchets said:

I think there is some irony in this topic - like when it's acceptable or not.  When I lived in Oklahoma we went to a going away luncheon downtown, and when three of us were leaving got "catcalled" by a group of 3-4 women on the way to the car.  I thought it was funny, especially since they were joking and laughing.  What made it even better was the one guy who was into weight lifting and always trying to be some kind of A-type tough guy freaked a bit and said "oh shit...let's go guys!" like they were going to hit him on the head with a club and drag him back to their cave or something  .

But I wonder if that had been the other way around - the three of us saying "heyyy girl, come with us instead!" and things like that - how it would have been perceived.

Maybe A-type tough guy did the catcall thing in the past and really got how it felt.

IDK.

It would have been perceived differently, even in the rare instance you all were

as not serious as the women were. Unless of course, it was the first time ever those

women had been exposed to three guys catcalling them.

[Deleted]

I think being in groups cuts down the intimidation factor . It's not the same when someone is calling to a group of women. It's the being alone part.

[Opti]

Slightly OT, there is also a line women IMO have to walk more delicately

than men. Both men and women do want to be noticed and seen as attractive

and worthwhile. However, I don't think men are concerned the way women

are in even their interactions with co-workers.

You have to walk interesting lines with people who are co-workers who are

interested in you that way and you are not. Most women take no and non-verbal

nos, fairly quickly. Most men will not. It will usually be at best low grade interest

forever or until they get a SO in their lives. Currently I have a maintenance guy

who I am not sure how to get him to stop touching my shoulder yet still remain

friendly enough so I can get things done.

Some men you can safely flirt with pretty openly because both of you know

its all for show and almost always he is safely attached to someone else. And

it does mean he is more likely to help you.

[zibazinski]

Obviously the harassers in this video don't work. I sure wish they did so their boss could call them in and Fire their asses. I do wonder if any of these jerks have girlfriends or mommas that watched their behavior in this video and gave them hell for behaving that way. I would have never thought I would have to teach my son to not cat call a woman, I would just assume he would know that only pig losers do that shit. Maybe I need to send him a little note saying btw, don't be an asshole like these guys are.

[Opti]

Gotcha. Not all my message board guesses can be right.

(Actually I'd be worried if they were. )

[Pants]

Oct 31, 2014 10:59:38 GMT -5 8 Bit WWBG said:

...:::"For the.most part, men move through the world without people commenting on them simply because they exist. This is not true for women, and specifically not true for young and pretty women. They are told as they move through the world that others have a right to comment on them.":::...

Let me propose an alternate viewpoint on this one...

Once upon a time, geek-dom was not as "acceptable" as it is today.  I got lots of nonsense for wearing gamer t-shirts.  Others took it upon themselves to comment because they had their opinions or wanted to feel big or whatever.  I had two choices.  I could hide who I wanted to be.  Or I could ignore them and do what I wanted in spite of their comments.  And while it may not have been fun dealing with them, it was something I had to learn to do because it was unlikely to just stop on its own.

I'm making the above point to address specifically the accusation that men can't possibly understand.

No, this is not the same. The fact that you think it is the same demonstrates that you apparently can't understand.

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"But the big issue is you are missing why this is a important, why it is scary.":::...

So when I was threatened to be beaten up for being a nerd, that doesn't qualify? @goldentx, Pants, and Opti all cited the fear of physical harm.  If the fear of physical harm is present for a male, does that make it a same?  Can my years of being bullied (including being attacked) count?

I'm not oblivious -- of course I get how unwelcome comments squelch your ability to feel comfortable going about your normal day.  You want to ride the subway or get a latte without someone trying to get your number, or get in your pants, and not leaving you alone when you say "no thanks".  I'm sure that stays with you the whole day, if not longer.

Yes, when some idiot is undressing you with his eyes, and audibly saying "girl, if I had you in my bed, mmmmm!" you are left wondering what might happen if said person actually tried to ACT on those desires.

...:::"Not MORE discrete and respectful, JUST discrete and respect full. There's no way to make a STRANGER talking about my ass or boobs, commenting what they'd do to me if they had me at home, telling me they'd like to get some of me, calling me derogatory names, etc just a little more discrete and respectful. There's nothing discrete or respectful about those.":::...

Very well said.  

[Pants]

Sorry WWBG, yes, I believe constant bullying with threat of or actual physical harm comes pretty close. Without the sexual component, maybe, but pretty close.

[Opti]

Oct 31, 2014 17:18:35 GMT -5 Pants said:

Sorry WWBG, yes, I believe constant bullying with threat of or actual physical harm comes pretty close. Without the sexual component, maybe, but pretty close.

Nicely said.

I'm enjoying the fact this thread has stayed on topic.

[Opti]

I will say I personally have more issues in my life with things not in the video.

My biggest issue is co-workers who don't get not interested means not interested.

I wish I knew how to handle them without going for nuclear options.

So this thread, has re-sensitized me to an ongoing issue at work

which has gotten uncomfortable again.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

If you're uncomfortable with the way that men are speaking to you or making comments, it might be time for you to be more direct in your responses to make it abundantly clear that you're there simply to do your job, and go home at the end of the day.

If they're just being flirtatious, walk away and ignore them - give them "the look". If they're persistent, talk to a superior. about it.

I've worked with many male co-workers who became personal friends or we were friendly toward each other as co-workers.

What I wouldn't condone is untoward advances or inappropriate comments - and I would take any of those to my or their superior to make it cease.

I work mostly in a professional environment (Accounting and Petro-Chemical Engineering) which is (for the most part) male-dominated. I have many male co-workers who are both colleagues and friends in both the work environment and social settings.

There are also the occasional asses thrown into the mix who think that I should welcome their inappropriate comments or remarks in passing.

I make it clear to them from the get-go that it won't fly with me. They might be able to sweet-talk the 20 yr old receptionist, but not me.

Have my male colleagues and I been chummy or hung out together - teased each other in the office? Sure - but never to the point of impropriety. We worked together for a number of years and it was a comfortable environment where co-workers who became friends can be themselves.

We often attended corporate parties where my co-workers would attend with their wives, and my husband was well-aware of my working friendships with the men.

When we attended corporate or Christmas parties for his company, I met and knew the women he worked with. And several were young and easy on the eyes. But he treated them in a professional manner, just like the men I worked with treated me.

[Opti]

I was going to delete the post zib liked, but unfortunately now

I feel like I need to leave it.

I'm happy for you SL, you have no experience with the men who

never give up. I'm glad for you, you were always able to handle it

yourself and not need higher intervention.

I guess this is part of the female co-worker wars perhaps.

I am less than in your eyes because my experience is not your

experience. I will need to use higher ups this time.