Woman Harrassed Simply By Walking in New York

[justme]

Oct 30, 2014 21:45:57 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Oct 30, 2014 21:03:24 GMT -5 justme said:

I've been cat called in a coat, no make up, walking down a safe street, a flowy skirt that goes to the ground, my crappy work clothes, when I was barely a 32A and a twig. It's not appropriate period and until everyone stops putting qualifiers on it it will continue to happen everywhere.

Define "cat called".

Guys yelling out of cars after me, commenting on my body, hey girl, damn can I get me some of that, following me, leering at me while they say anything, etc.

ETA I will say the scariest stuff is when they slow down and follow me I'm their car trying to get my number. Those times I'm grateful for cell phones and it happening in a area I know.

[billisonboard]

Oct 30, 2014 21:40:32 GMT -5 Pants said:

Street harassment is a systematic way ...

...

I would disagree. It is behavior undertaken by individual assholes.

[Deleted]

Oct 30, 2014 21:40:32 GMT -5 Pants said:

Street harassment is a systematic way of.Putting women in their place and ensuring that we know that men have a right to our bodies. For the.most part, men move through the world without people commenting on them simply because they exist. This is not true for women, and specifically not true for young and pretty women. They are told as they move through the world that others have a right to comment on them. They are not safe to simply occupy space in public.Because they are somehow lesser. Because they are objects. If you don't see how this gets old really, really fast, then I don't know what to tell you.

When I was younger and living in the city, leaving my house in the.morning meant mentally.preparing myself for this bullshit. Would today be uneventful, or would.I have some asshole yelling at me and making my heart beat faster and speeding up my walk to the train. Would the yelling be innocuous in the end, or would I be followed and put in actual danger. If you don't think that's harassment, I can't help you. It makes women afraid.


One of the best things I ever did was get old, because now for the most part I've entered into being invisible. It's much safer here.

Oh that's a load of crap. Women can tell men "good morning/afternoon" or "you look nice" or "nice suit". Heck, they can even hold the door open for men, if they want to. If they don't do so, that's on THEM. Everyone has the right to comment on ANYTHING (at least here in America... You know, the First Amendment and all).

Being talked to is NOT some sort of attack, nor is it "objectification".

Now, if everyone was saying "hey baby, I wanna motorboat them t@tt@@s of yours"... or even worse if they replaced "I wanna" with "I'm gonna"... you might have a point... but MOST people aren't doing that.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

I'd believe you more if you didn't comment about her tight shirt and tight pants and walking down a "bad" street.

Why's that? You don't think they purposely chose the location to film in, the attractive actress, or clothing she was going to wear for this "experiment"?

It was set-up and staged to get reactions/comments much like some that have been posted here or the website.

And the editing is ridiculous. No person walks down the street and gets this amount of attention in a 2 min timespan - not anywhere.




.

[Pants]

Oct 30, 2014 21:55:14 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Oct 30, 2014 21:40:32 GMT -5 Pants said:

Street harassment is a systematic way of.Putting women in their place and ensuring that we know that men have a right to our bodies. For the.most part, men move through the world without people commenting on them simply because they exist. This is not true for women, and specifically not true for young and pretty women. They are told as they move through the world that others have a right to comment on them. They are not safe to simply occupy space in public.Because they are somehow lesser. Because they are objects. If you don't see how this gets old really, really fast, then I don't know what to tell you.

When I was younger and living in the city, leaving my house in the.morning meant mentally.preparing myself for this bullshit. Would today be uneventful, or would.I have some asshole yelling at me and making my heart beat faster and speeding up my walk to the train. Would the yelling be innocuous in the end, or would I be followed and put in actual danger. If you don't think that's harassment, I can't help you. It makes women afraid.


One of the best things I ever did was get old, because now for the most part I've entered into being invisible. It's much safer here.

Oh that's a load of crap. Women can tell men "good morning/afternoon" or "you look nice" or "nice suit". Heck, they can even hold the door open for men, if they want to. If they don't do so, that's on THEM. Everyone has the right to comment on ANYTHING (at least here in America... You know, the First Amendment and all).

Being talked to is NOT some sort of attack, nor is it "objectification".

Now, if everyone was saying "hey baby, I wanna motorboat them t@tt@@s of yours"... or even worse if they replaced "I wanna" with "I'm gonna"... you might have a point... but MOST people aren't doing that.

I'm sorry, when was the last time someone told you "nice suit" 10, 20 times in a day? A stranger? Someone you were physically weaker than? Don't tell me what's bullshit because you have zero idea what it's like to be yelled at for leaving your house.

[Opti]

I think it can change if we talk about it AND it becomes socially acceptable to

do the right thing instead of repeatedly saying its no big deal. I don't think it is

 common in all places and all countries. In fact, someone has pointed out

that in richer areas it probably wouldn't happen. And why is that? Because it

would generally be considered bad taste.

While some people think its not so bad for example to ask a woman to smile,

think on why that's OK or not so bad. If you are a woman, how many men have

you ever asked to smile? Were any of them people you didn't know?

 

Yes the tape is spliced, yes  they picked that street for a reason. But I'm surprised

anyone can think big swaths of NYC city aren't like that. Maybe along with teaching

people not to touch pregnant women's bellies without permission perhaps it should

be told and acted on that most women do not like being told to smile by strangers

or people they don't know well. Constant low grade stress is stress. And perhaps if

you have not experienced anything similar to this is degree day in and day out, frankly

you might not get it.

FWIW, when men tell you to smile, especially strangers, they aren't commenting on

your personality. Last I checked, my face was part of my body. Perhaps it is easier

to imagine women without clothes than it is to figure out when she looks happy for you.

If they are generally only asking women who they find attractive to smile, they aren't

doing it to make you happy.

[Deleted]

Oct 30, 2014 21:48:06 GMT -5 justme said:

Oct 30, 2014 21:45:57 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Define "cat called".

Guys yelling out of cars after me, commenting on my body, hey girl, damn can I get me some of that, following me, leering at me while they say anything, etc.

I appreciate the response.

Following you isn't "cat calling", neither is leering... and those two may cross the "is it creepy or not" line.

Cat calling is the verbal assignations that are received by your ears. All of which the cat-caller has every right to say (from a legal standpoint, First Amendment and all). You can choose to be offended by it, or you can choose to ignore it.

ETA: forgot to include the third option... you could also choose to be flattered by it (some women take the third option).

[Deleted]

Oct 30, 2014 22:10:53 GMT -5 Pants said:

Oct 30, 2014 21:55:14 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Oh that's a load of crap. Women can tell men "good morning/afternoon" or "you look nice" or "nice suit". Heck, they can even hold the door open for men, if they want to. If they don't do so, that's on THEM. Everyone has the right to comment on ANYTHING (at least here in America... You know, the First Amendment and all).

Being talked to is NOT some sort of attack, nor is it "objectification".

Now, if everyone was saying "hey baby, I wanna motorboat them t@tt@@s of yours"... or even worse if they replaced "I wanna" with "I'm gonna"... you might have a point... but MOST people aren't doing that.

I'm sorry, when was the last time someone told you "nice suit" 10, 20 times in a day? A stranger? Someone you were physically weaker than? Don't tell me what's bullshit because you have zero idea what it's like to be yelled at for leaving your house.

I never said it happens to me. If you'll read what I said very closely, you'll see that I said women CAN do it. I didn't say that they DO do it. If they choose to NOT do it... that's on them.

I'd be willing to bet my next paycheck that you have never been "yelled at" by a stranger for "leaving your house".

[Opti]

Oct 30, 2014 22:10:53 GMT -5 Pants said:

Oct 30, 2014 21:55:14 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Oh that's a load of crap. Women can tell men "good morning/afternoon" or "you look nice" or "nice suit". Heck, they can even hold the door open for men, if they want to. If they don't do so, that's on THEM. Everyone has the right to comment on ANYTHING (at least here in America... You know, the First Amendment and all).

Being talked to is NOT some sort of attack, nor is it "objectification".

Now, if everyone was saying "hey baby, I wanna motorboat them t@tt@@s of yours"... or even worse if they replaced "I wanna" with "I'm gonna"... you might have a point... but MOST people aren't doing that.

I'm sorry, when was the last time someone told you "nice suit" 10, 20 times in a day? A stranger? Someone you were physically weaker than? Don't tell me what's bullshit because you have zero idea what it's like to be yelled at for leaving your house.

Agreed. What some fail to realize is the intention behind the less explicit statements can

be identical to the out of control statements Richard used. There are many ways to say nice

pants. Only a few of them are actually complimenting the quality of the pants themselves.

Women could choose to act like sex crazed assholes to men, but that only would make

more bad behavior. At least for me, the goal here in not equality in treating people like

objects for the commenters visual pleasure. The goal for me, is for people to be treated

with dignity. Over the years I have become more comfortable with giving guys compliments

on what they are wearing. But it is almost always people I know, friends or co-workers.

[mmhmm]

Oct 30, 2014 21:40:32 GMT -5 Pants said:

Street harassment is a systematic way of.Putting women in their place and ensuring that we know that men have a right to our bodies. For the.most part, men move through the world without people commenting on them simply because they exist. This is not true for women, and specifically not true for young and pretty women. They are told as they move through the world that others have a right to comment on them. They are not safe to simply occupy space in public.Because they are somehow lesser. Because they are objects. If you don't see how this gets old really, really fast, then I don't know what to tell you.

When I was younger and living in the city, leaving my house in the.morning meant mentally.preparing myself for this bullshit. Would today be uneventful, or would.I have some asshole yelling at me and making my heart beat faster and speeding up my walk to the train. Would the yelling be innocuous in the end, or would I be followed and put in actual danger. If you don't think that's harassment, I can't help you. It makes women afraid.


One of the best things I ever did was get old, because now for the most part I've entered into being invisible. It's much safer here.

I don't think anyone has inferred getting followed or being physically accosted is not harassment. It is. No question about it. I definitely agree with you on the "getting old" part. It's a damned relief is what it is!

[Opti]

Oct 30, 2014 22:18:28 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Oct 30, 2014 21:48:06 GMT -5 justme said:

Guys yelling out of cars after me, commenting on my body, hey girl, damn can I get me some of that, following me, leering at me while they say anything, etc.

I appreciate the response.

Following you isn't "cat calling", neither is leering... and those two may cross the "is it creepy or not" line.

Cat calling is the verbal assignations that are received by your ears. All of which the cat-caller has every right to say (from a legal standpoint, First Amendment and all). You can choose to be offended by it, or you can choose to ignore it.

Yes legally we can say many things except for things we've decided aren't good like

defamation of character, certain slurs for example. There are other options besides

being offended and choosing to ignore it. Neither of those fixes or stems bad behavior.

Now some of us can work up snappy one-liners, and sometimes they do work, but really

perhaps its time to lessen the OKness of commenting on women's looks in an uninvited sexual

way. Maybe not at the local singles bar, but definitely places like walking on the street,

waiting for the train, in the workplace, etc.

[Deleted]

"Good Morning" is "a sexual way" now?

[Wisconsin Beth]

Oct 30, 2014 16:58:20 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Just because you categorize it as creepy doesn't make it so.  The culture of the area matters.  I think people running around in loin clothes is creepy, i bet a lot of other countries don't.  I think women walking around in sweatpants that say "juicy" on them is creepy, clearly a lot of people don't.  I think guys walking around barefoot with no shirt and only some overalls is creepy, clearly some places don't. 

If you don't like the culture of an area, don't go there.  There's a difference between doing things which are illegal, and doing things which are annoying to you personally.

I haven't watched the video. Don't plan on doing so. I've read there are issues with it - they had to consolidate 10 hours or so into 10 minutes. They apparently eliminated most white males and/or their voices from the video, some due to overlap of sirens and other noises.

Try to think of it this way Hoops.  You're walking, going about your daily stuff.  There's a low level of gossip/chatter following you.  Loud enough that you know it's there but not enough to be able to confront someone about or be positive it's about you.  Some of it is from coworkers, some is from family, some of it is from friends, some it is the people in stores you're at.  And some of it is just from strangers.  Multiple times a day.  I got to the point where I just tuned out ALL voices I heard at the bus stop or on a street.  I worked with the public for 2 decades and couldn't tune them out and still do my job.

So Hoops, how do you cope with a constant barrage of comments following you in your life and yeah, there's not always complimentary and they're sometimes contradictory.  Or sexual.  For example: Look at that suit.  Look at those shoes.  Can you believe that haircut?  Why doesn't he ever seem happy about his wife.  He's married?  I feel bad for the wife.  Does he have kids?  Boy, I want to watch him work out.  Where's his gym.  Smile Hoops.  Can't wait to see HIM in a Speedo.  Why is he wearing a Speedo?  Good God, doesn't he ever wax his chest?  Look at that hair.  That can't be his natural color.  Doesn't he know the Don Johnson look is NOT coming back?  Boy those pants accent his ass.  Nice ass dude!  Eat!  Dude, put down the sandwich and go work out.  OMG, he's got platforms.  Dude, whiten your teeth.  Make your mommy happen and go to church.  Rinse and repeat on a weekly basis from the age of oh, 18-45 or so. 

[Pants]

Yes, having a grown man yell "look at that sexy ass" when you're 13 years old is not at all scary, demeaning or upsetting. Shouldn't have felt ashamed, embarrassed or humiliated, (I mean, I was wearing pants and walking alone while female, silly me.) You're right, women are just too sensitive.

[Pants]

Regarding "Good morning" - the issue is that the greeting COULD be an honest good morning, or it could be an opportunity for more unwanted attention and an attempt to engage you in a conversation you don't want. If you don't reply (a state many women reach as an attempt at self-preservation) then you get a "Bitch" or "Whore " thrown at you as you continue on your way. Nothing like having insults hurled at you as you go about your day to make you feel welcome in the world. And you never know whether it's honest or creepy, but you have to assume it's creepy because s e there is less risk that way.

The purpose behind these videos is.not to say "feel bad for this woman" - it's to get.Men to.realize that this is a pervasive problem. And the only ones who can stop it are men. Apparently this is too much to ask.

[Opti]

Oct 30, 2014 22:18:28 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Oct 30, 2014 21:48:06 GMT -5 justme said:

Guys yelling out of cars after me, commenting on my body, hey girl, damn can I get me some of that, following me, leering at me while they say anything, etc.

I appreciate the response.

Following you isn't "cat calling", neither is leering... and those two may cross the "is it creepy or not" line.

Cat calling is the verbal assignations that are received by your ears. All of which the cat-caller has every right to say (from a legal standpoint, First Amendment and all). You can choose to be offended by it, or you can choose to ignore it.

ETA: forgot to include the third option... you could also choose to be flattered by it (some women take the third option).

There are more than three options. I bet you allow yourself more leeway when people

say things to you, you don't approve of.

You can show non verbal disapproval and also verbally disapprove as examples.

[zibazinski]

The man who taped it says it did it in response to his girlfriend who gets cat called every day.     It's a damn shame that SOME people think it's okay to call at someone because it's a FREE COUNTRY and they have rights to do it. Funny they don't do it to guys though, huh? Maybe because a guy would punch their lights out. I hope the guys that are caught on tape acting like the true assholes they are, not just guys being friendly to a total stranger because we all know that is not what those guys are up to, get their asses reamed somehow by someone. I still can't believe there are people defending this behavior. It's a different form of rape. 

[Opti]

Oct 31, 2014 7:39:02 GMT -5 Pants said:

Regarding "Good morning" - the issue is that the greeting COULD be an honest good morning, or it could be an opportunity for more unwanted attention and an attempt to engage you in a conversation you don't want. If you don't reply (a state many women reach as an attempt at self-preservation) then you get a "Bitch" or "Whore " thrown at you as you continue on your way. Nothing like having insults hurled at you as you go about your day to make you feel welcome in the world. And you never know whether it's honest or creepy, but you have to assume it's creepy because s e there is less risk that way.

The purpose behind these videos is.not to say "feel bad for this woman" - it's to get.Men to.realize that this is a pervasive problem. And the only ones who can stop it are men. Apparently this is too much to ask.

I'll take a leap on interpretation. If its bitch or whore, it wasn't just a friendly 'Good Morning'.

Sometimes perhaps people just want attention and to be noticed, but I doubt really what

women deal with is dealt with by men in a similar way or frequency. I remember once walking

into a art store when I was very sick and tired, yet two different customers whined in my range

of hearing that I was ignoring them. My crime apparently was just wanting to go into the store,

grab what I wanted and go collapse at home. They felt entitled to a hello and possibly conversation.

[NoNamePerson]

Said before that I didn't watch it but I do have one more question? Did this person have a film crew following her?

And I will say that going into store yesterday a young gentleman held the door for me and said good morning. I smiled and said same to you.   Probably reminded him of his grandmother 

[zibazinski]

Oct 30, 2014 21:45:57 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Oct 30, 2014 21:03:24 GMT -5 justme said:

I've been cat called in a coat, no make up, walking down a safe street, a flowy skirt that goes to the ground, my crappy work clothes, when I was barely a 32A and a twig. It's not appropriate period and until everyone stops putting qualifiers on it it will continue to happen everywhere.

Define "cat called".

I hope you were fucking joking with that remark. If not, how incredibly sick. It isn't bad enough we have women thinking its okay but a guy as well? Shows how far we haven't come. Hope you don't have a wife or daughters that you think its okay for them to be harassed like that. That's just sad and sick.

[Opti]

I wouldn't go as far as calling it a different form of rape, but taken in the aggregate

and way too often in individual instances - it is harassment even if it seems many posters

want to deny or belittle the issue. Civility will only increase when we as a group decide

this is bad behavior and most of us don't tolerate it.

I am reminded of a recent discussion with the receptionists. As receptionists and because

we are female we attract the attention of various male visitors and patients. In spite of

the fact we have a job to do which includes answering the phone when it rings, we continually

have men who will hang around the front desk to have conversations. Some of them bizarre.

The character of conversations men who hang around the desk varies. Many want an

audience and love to lecture and opine on various topics. Interestingly the devil and religion

come up pretty often. Some come by because they want you to become their GF, and this

is unfortunately more annoying when it is a patient you need to be diplomatic with so your

employer keeps the income stream or a co-worker. The women who hang out and they are

fewer in number, generally want an ear because they are stressed about caring for their loved

one. I find them easier to deal with because unlike the men, they all recognize and let you

do your job. They know you have other things to do and they do their best to work their needs

around that. In general the men seem to require your attention and will stay and stay trying to

get it. It takes many conversations with other staff often including a social worker and Administrator

to modify the behavior. It is very rare they actually stop entirely before the patient leaves the

facility. They see a captive audience and they work it for all they are worth. (Not all men are bad,

but the ones that are require more than twice the effort at least generally than the worst female.)

[Tennesseer]

Oct 31, 2014 7:49:42 GMT -5 NoNamePerson said:

Said before that I didn't watch it but I do have one more question? Did this person have a film crew following her?

And I will say that going into store yesterday a young gentleman held the door for me and said good morning. I smiled and said same to you.   Probably reminded him of his grandmother 

The person filming the events was in front of her. He casually walked in front of her with the camera hidden in his backpack. The woman wore the microphone.

[NoNamePerson]

Oct 31, 2014 8:08:53 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Oct 31, 2014 7:49:42 GMT -5 NoNamePerson said:

Said before that I didn't watch it but I do have one more question? Did this person have a film crew following her?

And I will say that going into store yesterday a young gentleman held the door for me and said good morning. I smiled and said same to you.   Probably reminded him of his grandmother 

The person filming the events was in front of her. He casually walked in front of her with the camera hidden in his backpack. The woman wore the microphone.

Thanks for the explanation. I just didn't want to hunt up that little tidbit 

[Opti]

Its interesting to read this discussion.

Not one person who said it isn't a big deal offered a suggestion on how to

react when you disapprove of the attention and want the other person to know that.

Would you give the same advice to someone who is gay or black who was only

verbally harassed or followed? (Yes, many do get this level of attention. Not as overt

in the old days, but the intentions have not changed.)

[Deleted]

Oct 31, 2014 7:50:17 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Oct 30, 2014 21:45:57 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Define "cat called".

I hope you were fucking joking with that remark. If not, how incredibly sick. It isn't bad enough we have women thinking its okay but a guy as well? Shows how far we haven't come. Hope you don't have a wife or daughters that you think its okay for them to be harassed like that. That's just sad and sick.

I wasn't joking with that question. Some women think "hello" is cat-calling. I was curious if it was REAL cat-calling or over reaction.

I do have a wife (and a mother and sisters)... and I don't think it's acceptable for them to be harassed. But it has to be ACTUAL harassment, not a greeting or a comment or someone looking at them as they walk by.

[Deleted]

Oct 31, 2014 8:11:24 GMT -5 Opti said:

Its interesting to read this discussion.

Not one person who said it isn't a big deal offered a suggestion on how to

react when you disapprove of the attention and want the other person to know that.

Would you give the same advice to someone who is gay or black who was only

verbally harassed or followed? (Yes, many do get this level of attention. Not as overt

in the old days, but the intentions have not changed.)

I'd suggest they react... IF they were ACTUALLY harassed. The woman in the video wasn't.

[NoNamePerson]

Not one person who said it isn't a big deal offered a suggestion on how to

react when you disapprove of the attention and want the other person to know that

Well, if it is one on one - I would probably say bite me asshole but then I'm not very lady like when someone insults me. 

[Wisconsin Beth]

Depends on how you say Hello. 
"hello!"

"Hellllloooo"

[justme]

Have a questions for the guys. So a strange woman says good morning/afternoon/whatever to you. If you didn't say anything back how many yelled after you calling you a bitch or I was just saying good morning or what an I not good enough to talk to? Or, if you try to be pleasant and polite and respond back to them but keep moving or turn away cuz you don't want to or don't have time to continue talking how many start walking after you or then still say all the other things they say if you ignore them?

[Opti]

Oct 31, 2014 8:13:09 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Oct 31, 2014 7:50:17 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

I hope you were fucking joking with that remark. If not, how incredibly sick. It isn't bad enough we have women thinking its okay but a guy as well? Shows how far we haven't come. Hope you don't have a wife or daughters that you think its okay for them to be harassed like that. That's just sad and sick.

I wasn't joking with that question. Some women think "hello" is cat-calling. I was curious if it was REAL cat-calling or over reaction.

I do have a wife (and a mother and sisters)... and I don't think it's acceptable for them to be harassed. But it has to be ACTUAL harassment, not a greeting or a comment or someone looking at them as they walk by.

I just watched the video. And one Damn may not feel like harassment, but a pattern of lots

of them does.

For you, you will probably consider more of it over-reaction because likely you are not in the

situation ever that some women are. You can appreciate a good-looking person by saying

nothing, so making the comment, if you notice was entirely to get her attention.

There were at least two different black males who were offended they did not get her attention,

she was not going to beg to date them, so they walked with her. One for 5 minutes!

Now since she was doing this as video, she probably acted a bit different than usual, i.e. never

reacting unless it was straight ahead.

Almost all comments referenced her body in one way or another. Notice however, the 5 minute

stalker actually had initially the most harmless two sentences to say. But if you watch the video,

you should realize how deceiving that was. This guy is a stalker/predator. He's probably honed

his lines to get women's guards down. There are male predators of women. And they do walk the

streets and are out in public just like the child predators. And just like them, they have learned

to seem harmless until they strike.

That's why you can't let the words fool you. The words by themselves may not telegraph intent.