Woman Harrassed Simply By Walking in New York

[Bonny]

Nov 2, 2014 11:22:51 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 2, 2014 10:59:13 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Power.

Harassing someone who won't fight back makes them feel powerful.

Losers.

The fact that it might make them feel powerful does not been they have gained any power.
Yes, they are demonstrating that they are losers by engaging in such behavior.

What power did the female lose in this situation?

Did she ask to be verbally abused? Why is it o.k?

Do guys dread having to walk by a construction site in their own neighborhood? Dread walking by a group of men?

I'll go back to my comment to my dad: If you won't say it to your daughter then the comment is unacceptable. Keep your comments to yourself and zip it!

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2014 11:27:40 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 2, 2014 11:18:36 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Except uncomfortable and possibly little bit scared. It is ok to make her feel so?

I would contend it is entirely up to her what she feels. No one can make one feel ...

The exception from the video is the guy walking silently at her shoulder. That behavior should subject the guy to criminal prosecution.

Then its OK if he will touch her because it is for to "decide" to be not offended?

[Bonny]

Nov 2, 2014 11:27:40 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 2, 2014 11:18:36 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Except uncomfortable and possibly little bit scared. It is ok to make her feel so?

I would contend it is entirely up to her what she feels. No one can make one feel ...

The exception from the video is the guy walking silently at her shoulder. That behavior should subject the guy to criminal prosecution.

You're avoiding the point.

Did she ask to be verbally assaulted by walking by? Why is it o.k. to make ANY comment other than "Hi"

And Hellllllllllooooooo isn't a greeting.

[billisonboard]

Nov 2, 2014 11:16:50 GMT -5 Bonny said:

I should add that some men just don't get it. They think they're funny...like they are the first one to come up with some of their comments.

My father is one of them. You cannot believe some of things that come out of his mouth. Both my mother and brother banned him from their offices because of his inappropriate comments.

Here's an example I witnessed:

My dad to an attractive 50 woman wearing a business suit: "Do you know that wearing red means that you're sexually hot?"

My dad wasn't coming on to her. He thought he was funny. What's the appropriate response when the jerk is the owner or the father of the owner of where you work? My mother and brother were afraid they would get sued for a hostile workplace.

I confronted my father a few years back after one of his "funny" comments and said "How would you feel if some man said that to me?" His expression? I continued "Before you say something "funny" think about whether you would say it to your daughter. If you won't say it to your daughter then zip it!"

Yes, many men think they are being cute or funny. They are not harassing females in order to gain power. Yes, educating males that they are not being cute or funny is something that should be done. Labeling the behavior sexual harrassment is counterproductive as it creates resistance from those who are doing it .

[billisonboard]

Nov 2, 2014 11:31:17 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Nov 2, 2014 11:27:40 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I would contend it is entirely up to her what she feels. No one can make one feel ...

The exception from the video is the guy walking silently at her shoulder. That behavior should subject the guy to criminal prosecution.

Then its OK if he will touch her because it is for to "decide" to be not offended?

No.

[billisonboard]

Nov 2, 2014 11:33:38 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Nov 2, 2014 11:27:40 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I would contend it is entirely up to her what she feels. No one can make one feel ...

The exception from the video is the guy walking silently at her shoulder. That behavior should subject the guy to criminal prosecution.

You're avoiding the point.

Did she ask to be verbally assaulted by walking by? Why is it o.k. to make ANY comment other than "Hi"

And Hellllllllllooooooo isn't a greeting.

I am not accepting your definition of what constitutes verbal assault.

[mmhmm]

Nov 2, 2014 11:44:27 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 2, 2014 11:16:50 GMT -5 Bonny said:

I should add that some men just don't get it. They think they're funny...like they are the first one to come up with some of their comments.

My father is one of them. You cannot believe some of things that come out of his mouth. Both my mother and brother banned him from their offices because of his inappropriate comments.

Here's an example I witnessed:

My dad to an attractive 50 woman wearing a business suit: "Do you know that wearing red means that you're sexually hot?"

My dad wasn't coming on to her. He thought he was funny. What's the appropriate response when the jerk is the owner or the father of the owner of where you work? My mother and brother were afraid they would get sued for a hostile workplace.

I confronted my father a few years back after one of his "funny" comments and said "How would you feel if some man said that to me?" His expression? I continued "Before you say something "funny" think about whether you would say it to your daughter. If you won't say it to your daughter then zip it!"

Yes, many men think they are being cute or funny. They are not harassing females in order to gain power. Yes, educating males that they are not being cute or funny is something that should be done. Labeling the behavior sexual harrassment is counterproductive as it creates resistance from those who are doing it .

It IS sexual harassment. I see no problem with calling a spade a spade, and a diamond a diamond. If an individual wishes to see a diamond as a club, that's the problem of that individual and they're going to lose a lot of card games.

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2014 11:48:35 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 2, 2014 11:33:38 GMT -5 Bonny said:

You're avoiding the point.

Did she ask to be verbally assaulted by walking by? Why is it o.k. to make ANY comment other than "Hi"

And Hellllllllllooooooo isn't a greeting.

I am not accepting your definition of what constitutes verbal assault.

Then its OK a man can say what ever he will like to say and it is for the woman to "decide" to not feel harassed? How nice for men is the world you live in!

[billisonboard]

Nov 2, 2014 11:49:07 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

...
It IS sexual harassment. ...

I would ask that you read your own recent postings to ZaireinHD that are relevant to this statement.

[Bonny]

Nov 2, 2014 11:44:27 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 2, 2014 11:16:50 GMT -5 Bonny said:

I should add that some men just don't get it. They think they're funny...like they are the first one to come up with some of their comments.

My father is one of them. You cannot believe some of things that come out of his mouth. Both my mother and brother banned him from their offices because of his inappropriate comments.

Here's an example I witnessed:

My dad to an attractive 50 woman wearing a business suit: "Do you know that wearing red means that you're sexually hot?"

My dad wasn't coming on to her. He thought he was funny. What's the appropriate response when the jerk is the owner or the father of the owner of where you work? My mother and brother were afraid they would get sued for a hostile workplace.

I confronted my father a few years back after one of his "funny" comments and said "How would you feel if some man said that to me?" His expression? I continued "Before you say something "funny" think about whether you would say it to your daughter. If you won't say it to your daughter then zip it!"

Yes, many men think they are being cute or funny. They are not harassing females in order to gain power. Yes, educating males that they are not being cute or funny is something that should be done. Labeling the behavior sexual harrassment is counterproductive as it creates resistance from those who are doing it .

Bill,

Based on some of your other comments on other threads I do not believe that you're the kind of guy who gets off on making women feel uncomfortable by making unwanted sexual comments. Or that you hang around with a bunch of guys who thinks making those kinds of comments are fun.

But there is a significant portion of men who do and as the video and the women on this thread are saying it's a BIG problem. And we're just supposed to suck it up. We shouldn't have to.

You probably don't understand how prevalent it is because it's usually directed to women when they are alone. And it IS sexual and meant to intimidate. It is very much about power.

I personally don't get it. It's not logical to me as a successful strategy for finding a mate. But I sure know how it felt when it's been done to me and don't think anyone should have to go through it. That's why I speak up now. I didn't have a champion when I was younger.

[billisonboard]

Nov 2, 2014 11:50:30 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Nov 2, 2014 11:48:35 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I am not accepting your definition of what constitutes verbal assault.

Then its OK a man can say what ever he will like to say and it is for the woman to "decide" to not feel harassed? How nice for men is the world you live in!

And nice for women to be empowered to not allow men to control them.

[Tennesseer]

Would any of the men's outside comments and/or behavior be acceptable within the workplace?  If no, that would be harassment or worse, sexual harassment, depending upon what was said.

[mmhmm]

I'm trying to visualize a situation in which a well-dressed and attractive man is walking down the street, minding his own business, and a group of mixed gender (or, either gender) starts yelling comments about his clothing and his physique. I've never seen this happen. I don't think I've ever heard of it happening. I can't help but wonder how that man would feel and what he might do. I wonder, too, how his feelings and behaviors might change if one, or more of the group began to follow him and continue the unwanted comments.

[billisonboard]

Nov 2, 2014 11:59:43 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Nov 2, 2014 11:44:27 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Yes, many men think they are being cute or funny. They are not harassing females in order to gain power. Yes, educating males that they are not being cute or funny is something that should be done. Labeling the behavior sexual harrassment is counterproductive as it creates resistance from those who are doing it .

Bill,

Based on some of your other comments on other threads I do not believe that you're the kind of guy who gets off on making women feel uncomfortable by making unwanted sexual comments. Or that you hang around with a bunch of guys who thinks making those kinds of comments are fun.

But there is a significant portion of men who do and as the video and the women on this thread are saying it's a BIG problem. And we're just supposed to suck it up. We shouldn't have to.

You probably don't understand how prevalent it is because it's usually directed to women when they are alone. And it IS sexual and meant to intimidate. It is very much about power.

I personally don't get it. It's not logical to me as a successful strategy for finding a mate. But I sure know how it felt when it's been done to me and don't think anyone should have to go through it. That's why I speak up now. I didn't have a champion when I was younger.

I am questioning the strategy being used to battle the issue.

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2014 11:59:58 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 2, 2014 11:50:30 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Then its OK a man can say what ever he will like to say and it is for the woman to "decide" to not feel harassed? How nice for men is the world you live in!

And nice for women to be empowered to not allow men to control them.

Now you like to pretend you are about empowering women?? 

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2014 12:02:06 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I'm trying to visualize a situation in which a well-dressed and attractive man is walking down the street, minding his own business, and a group of mixed gender (or, either gender) starts yelling comments about his clothing and his physique. I've never seen this happen. I don't think I've ever heard of it happening. I can't help but wonder how that man would feel and what he might do. I wonder, too, how his feelings and behaviors might change if one, or more of the group began to follow him and continue the unwanted comments.

Probably all the men who said it is OK for men to treat women so or else its OK and women better just don't feel harassed will cry like a little child if ONE gay man treated them so.

[Bonny]

Nov 2, 2014 12:02:21 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 2, 2014 11:59:43 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Bill,

Based on some of your other comments on other threads I do not believe that you're the kind of guy who gets off on making women feel uncomfortable by making unwanted sexual comments. Or that you hang around with a bunch of guys who thinks making those kinds of comments are fun.

But there is a significant portion of men who do and as the video and the women on this thread are saying it's a BIG problem. And we're just supposed to suck it up. We shouldn't have to.

You probably don't understand how prevalent it is because it's usually directed to women when they are alone. And it IS sexual and meant to intimidate. It is very much about power.

I personally don't get it. It's not logical to me as a successful strategy for finding a mate. But I sure know how it felt when it's been done to me and don't think anyone should have to go through it. That's why I speak up now. I didn't have a champion when I was younger.

I am questioning the strategy being used to battle the issue.

Making a video demonstrating the behavior isn't helpful?

Me confronting my father's behavior after he was banned from my mother's and brother's office and demanding that he look at it from a potential victim's point of view isn't helpful?

Egypt covers up its women and has a separate women's only  subway car on the Cairo metro. I don't think that's an acceptable solution as it perpetuates that women bring it on themselves.

I'm truly at a loss. What would you do to stop it?

[justme]

They may not "make her" feel anything, but what about the younger girls that have had little to no reaction with males? Where all or the majority of their interaction with the opposite sex are cat-calls? What's she to think? Should she just "know" that there's better, respectful guys are there and those guys are just asshats? Or is it more likely she'll think that's all she's worth because that's all she gets?



With regard to what to say when you want to approach a woman - a good rule of thumb would be "Would I say this to a man?" or, if it needs to be taken further "Would I say this to a man I respect?" If the answer is no, you should probably shut your trap and walk away.



With regard to the attractiveness of the cat-caller, I will say if he's attractive that usually greatly lowers my desire to hurl all over the sidewalk. And it sometimes changes my opinion from rolling my eyes and thinking he's an asshole, to thinking it's a shame someone that attractive is an asshole. But no, I suddenly don't want to talk to the guy yelling "Hey baby" or "Nice ass" just because I find him attractive - well found him attractive until he opened up his dumb mouth. 

[billisonboard]

Nov 2, 2014 12:06:22 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Nov 2, 2014 11:59:58 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

And nice for women to be empowered to not allow men to control them.

Now you like to pretend you are about empowering women?? 

Even if its only 1 to 5% of men who are active participants, we apparently have a majority of men who think its OK enough to not intervene.

I do support women taking control of their reactions. I do not support the idea that men need to solve this for women.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

You're avoiding the point.

Did she ask to be verbally assaulted by walking by? Why is it o.k. to make ANY comment other than "Hi"

And Hellllllllllooooooo isn't a greeting.

She was verbally approached - some comments that were made were definitely unacceptable to say to a stranger walking down the street (man or woman). Uncalled-for and inappropriate, definitely. No respectable man (or woman) should make unwanted comments toward another - especially if that person is ignoring them. The guy who followed her for several minutes, or the one who was dogging close behind her were creeps, for lack of better words.


Especially when her body language made it clear she wasn't interested or appreciative of them tailing her - she continued to walk forward in a determined manner, never speaking or looking at them.

I wouldn't call what anyone said to her being verbal "assault" though. Harassment, irritating, annoying, uncalled-for, yes. But not assault.

Verbal assault (to me) means hurling insults, belittlement, cursing, cruel put-downs, or threats of physical harm, etc.

Some of the things that Z posted & said he uses as pick-up lines were far more crass and unacceptable to say to a woman - or anyone for that matter Some were crudely sexual in nature, and far more improper to say to a woman in passing than the remarks made by the men in the video.

Just my 2-cents.

[billisonboard]

Nov 2, 2014 12:20:44 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Nov 2, 2014 12:02:21 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I am questioning the strategy being used to battle the issue.

Making a video demonstrating the behavior isn't helpful?

Labeling all the behaviors shown as harassment isn't helpful. 

Me confronting my father's behavior after he was banned from my mother's and brother's office and demanding that he look at it from a potential victim's point of view isn't helpful?

Did you tell him he was a sexual harasser. Did you tell him he was responsible for men raping women? 

Egypt covers up its women and has a separate women's only  subway car on the Cairo metro. I don't think that's an acceptable solution as it perpetuates that women bring it on themselves.

And that males are not capable of controlling their behavior.  It is as demeaning to men as it is to women. 

I'm truly at a loss. What would you do to stop it?
One thing would be to change the socialization process that subjects both genders to messages such as this as being the ideal:


Think about the effect on young males who are bombarded constantly with such images as they begin to realize that they will never have any possibility of access to such women. The video shows one great example of how it warps a human being.

[mmhmm]

Nov 2, 2014 13:40:49 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 2, 2014 12:06:22 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Now you like to pretend you are about empowering women?? 

Even if its only 1 to 5% of men who are active participants, we apparently have a majority of men who think its OK enough to not intervene.

I do support women taking control of their reactions. I do not support the idea that men need to solve this for women.

Men most certainly need to solve this for men, however. 

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2014 13:40:49 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 2, 2014 12:06:22 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Now you like to pretend you are about empowering women?? 

Even if its only 1 to 5% of men who are active participants, we apparently have a majority of men who think its OK enough to not intervene.

I do support women taking control of their reactions. I do not support the idea that men need to solve this for women.

Ya all its women's fault don't worry about men better behave as humans.

Here is the problem cause.

1 Victim blaming. People like you who thought its the problem for women and men better don't worry about it. It is a SOCIETY problem and already women do a lot to not get harassed and feel scared.

2 Fathers fail teaching sons to have respect for women. Probably they are like you and they think it is women's problem so why there gonna teach them.

[billisonboard]

Nov 2, 2014 14:23:45 GMT -5 @tiki said:

...

1 ... like you ...

2 ... like you ...

I don't think you quote have a handle on who I am.

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2014 14:32:51 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 2, 2014 14:23:45 GMT -5 @tiki said:

...

1 ... like you ...

2 ... like you ...

I don't think you quote have a handle on who I am.

I judge from your words same as all do.

After you are a woman 1 month come back and were gonna talk.

[billisonboard]

Nov 2, 2014 14:35:03 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Nov 2, 2014 14:32:51 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I don't think you quote have a handle on who I am.

I judge from your words same as all do.

After you are a woman 1 month come back and were gonna talk.

After you are a man 1 month come back and we're gonna talk.

[billisonboard]

Nov 2, 2014 14:43:31 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

... The two guys following her for several minutes were threatening physical harm. ...

I'm sure others would disagree, but those guys definitely crossed a line to me. ...

I haven't read that there is anyone posting here that disagrees with this.

[billisonboard]

Nov 2, 2014 14:23:45 GMT -5 @tiki said:

...

1 Victim blaming. ...

I am consistently subjected to things that I wish to not be subjected and occasionally to things that scare me. I don't consider myself a victim when in these situations.

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2014 15:02:30 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 2, 2014 14:35:03 GMT -5 @tiki said:

I judge from your words same as all do.

After you are a woman 1 month come back and were gonna talk.

After you are a man 1 month come back and we're gonna talk.

Oh yes because to understand how does it feel to be a woman and get harassed you gotta be a man. OK got it. Probably its some kind of western logic I didn't learn until now.

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2014 15:16:43 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 2, 2014 14:23:45 GMT -5 @tiki said:

...

1 Victim blaming. ...

I am consistently subjected to things that I wish to not be subjected and occasionally to things that scare me. I don't consider myself a victim when in these situations.

Oh no how sad for you!

I hope your not a white male because then its gonna be DOUBLE hard for you!!

Its all I'm gonna discuss with you because you thought everybody better live in exact same world as yours one.

Bubye.