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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2014 0:44:34 GMT -5
Love the new Avatar mmhmm...
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 19, 2014 0:50:51 GMT -5
I'm rather fond of it, too, @richardintn. Such a cute little face!
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Oct 19, 2014 0:57:49 GMT -5
A cute little face with an attitude and a punch to back it up. .
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Oct 19, 2014 1:20:48 GMT -5
I do agree with the complete and utter disassociation of the bond between marriage and church though. "Legal marriage" and "Religious marriage" should have nothing what-so-ever to do with each other. Get married in a courthouse or at the Clerk's office if you want it recognized by the state... THEN go have it done at a Church (if you can find one that will do it for you) if you want a religious one too. This is how it works in my home country. You can go to church to marry all you want, but unless you are married by a government official (and s/he won't do this in a church) you are not legally married. Those people who believe you have to declare your intentions before God just have 2 ceremonies with the civil one first, no big deal
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 19, 2014 2:36:55 GMT -5
I do agree with the complete and utter disassociation of the bond between marriage and church though. "Legal marriage" and "Religious marriage" should have nothing what-so-ever to do with each other. Get married in a courthouse or at the Clerk's office if you want it recognized by the state... THEN go have it done at a Church (if you can find one that will do it for you) if you want a religious one too. This is how it works in my home country. You can go to church to marry all you want, but unless you are married by a government official (and s/he won't do this in a church) you are not legally married. Those people who believe you have to declare your intentions before God just have 2 ceremonies with the civil one first, no big deal It's sorta the same here, you're just not married by a government official. However, you can't get married by anybody unless you purchase a license to marry.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Oct 19, 2014 11:41:25 GMT -5
The difference is that neither religious nor a 15 minute internet student will get such a license to marry someone. It does have some interesting results in that in that this is used by some older people who want some formal ceremony without legally mixing their fate. They marry in church yet they remain single Of course they and their families are then later outraged when they don't get state help when their partner passes away leaving them paying inheritance taxes as if they were non family (and belief me that is expensive!). Can't win them all but o well...
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 19, 2014 11:49:19 GMT -5
i read this a few years ago, and it says everything that needs to be said about what is WRONG with this debate: Amy Jenniges lives with her girlfriend, Sonia, and I live with my boyfriend, Terry. Last Friday I accompanied Amy and Sonia to room 403, the licensing division, at the King County Administration Building. When Amy and Sonia asked the clerk for a marriage license, the clerk turned white. You could see, "Oh my God, the gay activists are here!" running through her head. County clerks in the marriage license office had been warned to expect gay couples sooner or later, but I guess this particular clerk didn't expect us to show up five minutes before closing on Friday.
The clerk called over her manager, a nice older white man, who explained that Amy and Sonia couldn't have a marriage license. So I asked if Amy and I could have one--even though I'm gay and live with my boyfriend, and Amy's a lesbian and lives with her girlfriend. We emphasized to the clerk and her manager that Amy and I don't live together, we don't love each other, we don't plan to have kids together, and we're going to go on living and sleeping with our same-sex partners after we get married. So could we still get a marriage license?
"Sure," the license-department manager said, "If you've got $54, you can have a marriage license." www.thestranger.com/seattle/my-marriage-license/Content?oid=17394
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 19, 2014 12:30:57 GMT -5
None of those things are required or stipulated in the law of marriage. So, of course they were going to be given a license. Had he said "I'm already legally married" they would have turned the request down.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2014 13:32:57 GMT -5
Now that gay marriage is becoming the law of the land I wonder what the next protest will be.
IMHO it seems like there are professional protesters who go from place to place to get and keep the populace stirred up. Wonder how much they get paid. The next protests by the people will be- For or against, whatever is wanted or not wanted.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 19, 2014 15:08:48 GMT -5
Just one that I know of - but it's been colorful. No shit People who live for any amount of time as expatriates tend to travel a lot. Many live in more than one foreign country and are exposed to quite a few different cultures for measurable periods of time. Hubs and I were expatriate for over 20 years.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 19, 2014 15:58:06 GMT -5
None of those things are required or stipulated in the law of marriage. So, of course they were going to be given a license. that is precisely the point. if people who are the worst possible mates for each other can get married now, the government has NO BUSINESS making that decision. i am not advocating for the government helping with that choice. i am pointing out that they are shitty arbiters of that choice, and should stay out of it. sorry if that wasn't clear. hopefully it will be, now. but if not, try reading the article. it is bloody well clear in the article.
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Alyssa
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Post by Alyssa on Oct 26, 2014 12:39:36 GMT -5
Remember this... for when one attacks a gay/bi person, a transgender person, or someone born a hermaphrodite, you are attacking someone's child, a brother or sister, a mom or dad, or someone's best friend.
So why does one feel the need to attack an innocent individual that only wants to love and be loved.
Remember this... Would you like it if someone attacked you or your loved ones?
Just remember, we are all born different, and that is what makes the world a rainbow of beautiful people filled with love.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 26, 2014 13:03:32 GMT -5
Remember this... for when one attacks a gay/bi person, a transgender person, or someone born a hermaphrodite, you are attacking someone's child, a brother or sister, a mom or dad, or someone's best friend. So why does one feel the need to attack an innocent individual that only wants to love and be loved. Remember this... Would you like it if someone attacked you or your loved ones? Just remember, we are all born different, and that is what makes the world a rainbow of beautiful people filled with love. it is a pity that people who worship a guy who would lie with lepers, embrace the poor, and befriend the sinner would act so callously to people who want nothing more than to love each other with the equal protection under law provided to other loving couples.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 26, 2014 19:59:29 GMT -5
Remember this... for when one attacks a gay/bi person, a transgender person, or someone born a hermaphrodite, you are attacking someone's child, a brother or sister, a mom or dad, or someone's best friend. So why does one feel the need to attack an innocent individual that only wants to love and be loved. Remember this... Would you like it if someone attacked you or your loved ones? Just remember, we are all born different, and that is what makes the world a rainbow of beautiful people filled with love. Man attacks passenger in pink shirt during homophobic rant at Dallas airportThe unidentified man — who appeared drunk — taunted the passenger, who began recording the incident with his phone. When a third passenger confronted the yelling man, he again turned his attention to the man in the pink shirt, attacking him before being subdued by others in the waiting area. Man attacks passenger in pink shirt during homophobic rant at Dallas airport
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Alyssa
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Post by Alyssa on Oct 26, 2014 20:40:55 GMT -5
OMG Tennesseer... that man is totally messed up in the head. It's really sad to see that type of person attacking an elderly man wearing a pink shirt.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 26, 2014 20:50:58 GMT -5
OMG Tennesseer... that man is totally messed up in the head. It's really sad to see that type of person attacking an elderly man wearing a pink shirt. I think the other adults in the video taking down the guy would have done so even if the elder guy was wearing a blue shirt. The younger guy was maybe half the older guy's age. The younger guy could have been mouthing off for another reason and the crowd still would have taken him down. In this case, it was the younger guy's anti-gay bias/loathing of the other. From the video alone, we do not even know if the older guy is gay. But the youger guy has his stereotypes (pink shirt = gay) deeply ingrained in his biased mind.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 26, 2014 20:53:08 GMT -5
i like what the guy said at the end "hopefully he was on drugs, because that is an easier demon to conquer". wisdom.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Oct 27, 2014 4:31:34 GMT -5
Now that gay marriage is becoming the law of the land I wonder what the next protest will be.
IMHO it seems like there are professional protesters who go from place to place to get and keep the populace stirred up. Wonder how much they get paid. Not sure. What is Al Sharpton making these days?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 27, 2014 10:04:42 GMT -5
Now that gay marriage is becoming the law of the land I wonder what the next protest will be.
IMHO it seems like there are professional protesters who go from place to place to get and keep the populace stirred up. Wonder how much they get paid. Not sure. What is Al Sharpton making these days? probably not enough to pay the $4.7M he and his organizations owe the fed and state government.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Oct 28, 2014 13:12:21 GMT -5
The person talking about it said the same thing...just pointing out his view on the issue and discussing some concerns that people were having about churches being forced to perform ceremonies or be labeled as being "political" or for "hate speech" by speaking out against it. The guy doing the talking, didn't get married in a church. Where do these "people" get the notion churches are going to be forced to perform gay marriages? Churches aren't forced to perform any marriages now. Seems to me the people who are concerned about this are looking for something to be concerned about so they can fight gay marriage and justify it. That's just my take on it. I guess you haven't heard the argument that if churches refuse to perform ceremonies for same-sex couples, they should have their tax-exempt status revoked for being political and bigoted. Churches refuse to marry people for a variety or reasons, but when it comes to a "protected class," it seems that the rules and rights of people to refuse service changes pretty frequently...
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 28, 2014 13:17:07 GMT -5
Where do these "people" get the notion churches are going to be forced to perform gay marriages? Churches aren't forced to perform any marriages now. Seems to me the people who are concerned about this are looking for something to be concerned about so they can fight gay marriage and justify it. That's just my take on it. I guess you haven't heard the argument that if churches refuse to perform ceremonies for same-sex couples, they should have their tax-exempt status revoked for being political and bigoted. Churches refuse to marry people for a variety or reasons, but when it comes to a "protected class," it seems that the rules and rights of people to refuse service changes pretty frequently... People are free to hold that opinion if they like. I haven't seen any law proposed that would do that, though. I'm not one to play "what if"; nor, am I one to get my britches in a bunch over the opinions/threats of those with little power to do anything with them.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Oct 28, 2014 13:23:49 GMT -5
Remember this... for when one attacks a gay/bi person, a transgender person, or someone born a hermaphrodite, you are attacking someone's child, a brother or sister, a mom or dad, or someone's best friend. So why does one feel the need to attack an innocent individual that only wants to love and be loved. Remember this... Would you like it if someone attacked you or your loved ones? Just remember, we are all born different, and that is what makes the world a rainbow of beautiful people filled with love. it is a pity that people who worship a guy who would lie with lepers, embrace the poor, and befriend the sinner would act so callously to people who want nothing more than to love each other with the equal protection under law provided to other loving couples. Here's the issue with that argument...it's really pretty simple. If a person believes that a certain lifestyle is against what their religion believes, it doesn't mean that you are hateful and mean spirited toward the person...but it also doesn't mean you promote, support or embrace it either. If all boils down to if believe that "a guy who would lie with lepers, embrace the poor, and befriend the sinner" would support gay marriage.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Oct 28, 2014 14:34:57 GMT -5
My husband and I are happily married, but I have said to him many times that I had no idea what kind of legal contract we were entering into when we got married. And we went through pre-marital counseling and everything. No one ever mentioned - oh, by the way, here are all the legal rights you are giving your spouse when you sign the marriage license... I really wish our society would emphasize the legal aspects of marriage a lot more than the love, and fidelity and whatever. Not that those things aren't important, but if you had to sign off on each one of the rights you are implicitly giving your spouse, you would have to really think about how much you actually trust this person. That is easily swept under the carpet when you just say "I can't wait to wake up every morning with you, and that is why I know our life will be awesome forever." Actually this is the issue we should fight, at least in Marital Property States. In my state, my spouse can buy a new car and call it marital property and give it to his "girlfriend" and I will be jointly and severally liable. Same with any credit card whether I agreed to open it or not. Every credit card ap I have completed has a boilerplate statement that the funds used will be considered for marital purposes. Our corprate attorney calls the "Marital Property Act" the Creditor's protection Act. If you have a premaital agreement and your spouse does not disclose it to the creditior, you are liable and you can sue your spouse to recover the $$. So, if they are judgement proof, you are stuck. I don't think you should be liable unless you actually sign for the loan. I did have a pretty good understanding of Marital property law when I got married, we don't have a PMI, but I don't think I understood at the time that it would be invalid if it was not disclosed.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 28, 2014 17:15:50 GMT -5
it is a pity that people who worship a guy who would lie with lepers, embrace the poor, and befriend the sinner would act so callously to people who want nothing more than to love each other with the equal protection under law provided to other loving couples. Here's the issue with that argument...it's really pretty simple. If a person believes that a certain lifestyle is against what their religion believes, it doesn't mean that you are hateful and mean spirited toward the person...but it also doesn't mean you promote, support or embrace it either. If all boils down to if believe that "a guy who would lie with lepers, embrace the poor, and befriend the sinner" would support gay marriage. impossible to say. and given that fact, i think it is more reasonable to ask whether he would side with the anti-gay crowd on principle.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 28, 2014 17:43:54 GMT -5
You believe that? And I don't consider your statistics of 1 in 1000 being happy or having the warm & fuzzies after 20 years as accurate either - FAR from it.
I think you have a negative attitude about marriage in general. That isn't what @tiki said. She was saying that the "eyes will glaze and your heart will go fast" & the "warm & fuzzies" will only last 3 years tops. That is true. Those reactions aren't love, they are lust & they fade.
That doesn't mean you stop having a happy marriage after that point. But, it does mean that marriage better be based on something more than physical reaction/hormones or it will go to hell pretty quick after that point. Which is why arranged marriages do have a lower divorce rate, they are based on more than just lust...sometimes there is no lust at all, so you are starting from a base of friends & building from there to real love.
And yes, some arranged marriages are in societies where women are basically property & cannot divorce, so that skews the statistics. But, there also arranged marriages where the women do get a say in their spouse & can even refuse to marry the guy their parents may have chosen.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2014 18:40:17 GMT -5
Where do these "people" get the notion churches are going to be forced to perform gay marriages? Churches aren't forced to perform any marriages now. Seems to me the people who are concerned about this are looking for something to be concerned about so they can fight gay marriage and justify it. That's just my take on it. I guess you haven't heard the argument that if churches refuse to perform ceremonies for same-sex couples, they should have their tax-exempt status revoked for being political and bigoted. Churches refuse to marry people for a variety or reasons, but when it comes to a "protected class," it seems that the rules and rights of people to refuse service changes pretty frequently... Church? Or for-profit wedding chapel? ....
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 28, 2014 19:06:39 GMT -5
I guess you haven't heard the argument that if churches refuse to perform ceremonies for same-sex couples, they should have their tax-exempt status revoked for being political and bigoted. Churches refuse to marry people for a variety or reasons, but when it comes to a "protected class," it seems that the rules and rights of people to refuse service changes pretty frequently... Church? Or for-profit wedding chapel? .... ...which conducted both civil and religious marriages. Anatomy of a Right-Wing Fabrication: No Threat to Idaho Wedding Chapel
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Oct 28, 2014 19:18:08 GMT -5
I guess you haven't heard the argument that if churches refuse to perform ceremonies for same-sex couples, they should have their tax-exempt status revoked for being political and bigoted. Churches refuse to marry people for a variety or reasons, but when it comes to a "protected class," it seems that the rules and rights of people to refuse service changes pretty frequently... Nope- I have not heard that argument and anyone thinking of making it doesn't understand the issue.
Churches do not have to do anything- they do not even have to marry people of different faiths if they do not want to- and why should they- they are a freaking church. It is their rules.
But on the other hand if you are a business or even a government clerk- you do not get to deny certain people what they are legally obligated to provide without consequences.
There is a NC politician calling for government employees to deny issuing marriage licenses based on their personal religious beliefs- well, sorry- you get to be fired. If we start allowing people to refuse to do their jobs over bullshit like this the next thing you know is that Pizza Hut is forced to hire drivers that refuse to deliver a meat lovers pizza on Friday during Lent- or worse one that has pork on it at all. The stupidity has to end. Either bake the cake or quit being a bakery, issue the license or find a new line of work.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Oct 30, 2014 8:11:06 GMT -5
Here's the issue with that argument...it's really pretty simple. If a person believes that a certain lifestyle is against what their religion believes, it doesn't mean that you are hateful and mean spirited toward the person...but it also doesn't mean you promote, support or embrace it either. If all boils down to if believe that "a guy who would lie with lepers, embrace the poor, and befriend the sinner" would support gay marriage. impossible to say. and given that fact, i think it is more reasonable to ask whether he would side with the anti-gay crowd on principle. On what principle?
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Oct 30, 2014 8:14:08 GMT -5
I guess you haven't heard the argument that if churches refuse to perform ceremonies for same-sex couples, they should have their tax-exempt status revoked for being political and bigoted. Churches refuse to marry people for a variety or reasons, but when it comes to a "protected class," it seems that the rules and rights of people to refuse service changes pretty frequently... Church? Or for-profit wedding chapel? .... The particular conversation was over churches and many stating a refusal to marry same-sex couples. The people I was having the conversation with basically felt churches should has tax exempt status taken away from refusing to do so...my basic response was that churches can and do refuse to marry people for a variety of reasons, why should this be any different?
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