Wãll Stréét full of sociopaths

[midwesterner (banned)]

Yes, I am mad as hell again. Wall Street's soulless, immoral, greedy bankers really believe that the vast majority of America's 95 million investors are not only "predictably irrational" but "stupid," as J.P. Morgan Chase's chief investment officer put it in Forbes a while back.

Worse, Main Street investors are losers for continuing to trust Wall Street after they lost 20% of our retirement money the last decade. Now, worst of all, Wall Street's traders have profiled Main Street investors in their algorithms: Yes, investors are "predictably stupid losers," what Vegas croupiers call a mark, a dumb gambler that can be easily conned out of his money.

Why so blunt? Listen: Recently I explained why the Wall Street banks must kill financial reform, to preserve their multibillion dollar bonus pool. One reader commented: "I worked at the Bear Sterns ... every word written here is true. Fact is, bankers regard themselves as wolves and the public as prey, and speak about it openly, among themselves." Then he added a sucker punch: "What is extraordinary to me is how willingly the sheep submit to this."

Human Nature is a funny thing. The way things go, about 10-20% of the people were designed by Nature to rip you off. The other 80-90% of us were designed to be taken for a ride. I don't know why this is.

Our society has been taken over by rip-off artists with some math skills (aka Wall Street) and corrupt politicians with some people skills. (You should immediately distrust anyone who wants to run for public office.) Many of these people are sociopaths,

These Finance-types or politicians are sociopaths because that they are incapable of caring about the consequences of their actions. Their Big Brains have gone haywire. They've got screw loose. They simply don't care!

Farrell's point is that the game is fixed, it's rigged, so don't get fooled into thinking these books are going to help you out. And he's right. There's no way for you the Retail Investor to win this game, so your only and best option is not to play. You may think you can sit down at a table of professional poker players and come out a winner. I'm sorry to tell you this, but you're only deluding yourself.

www.declineoftheempire.com/2010/06/sociopaths-in-america.html

Political Corruption, Wall Street Frauds, and Sociopaths

www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-agin/political-corruption-wall_b_151708.html

Sociopaths in general usually have social cognition problems, especially with empathy. They are people who feel nothing when viewing or imagining the pain and suffering of other people.

Most clinical psychologists and psychiatrists use a rating scheme called the Hare Psychopathy Checklist to diagnose sociopathy (also called psychopathy).

Here are some items on the checklist to detect sociopaths:

Glibness and superficial charm. Grandiose sense of self-worth. Pathological lying. Conning and manipulative behavior. Lack of remorse or guilt. Lack of empathy. Failure to accept responsibility for own actions.

Yes, we could make a list of politicians and Wall Street scam artists described by the above cluster of traits.

So if you want to understand how someone can run the huge scam that was Enron, or how someone can rip $50 billion out of the pockets of charities and people, many of whom are "friends," or how some people can be callous about a torture called water-boarding (a "no-brainer," he said), or offer nothing but a shrug when reminded they have caused the death of thousands--if you want to understand the dynamics of these behaviors it might help to remember the continuum that runs from ordinary people with empathy to people with no empathy at all.

I don't have a fix. Regulation will help on Wall Street, but it's only a band-aid. The general problem is apparently psychiatric.

[decoy409]

Why?

Because ORAL LAW was formed and made 'The Law.' And for those that did not like these ways and did not submit to them as being ok to do/follow, well they were slaughtered.
And instead of being slaughtered, it was a better choice for many to simply accept and abide.
As time goes on and conditioning sets in many do know right from wrong but keep their mouths shut about it. Others do not know right from wrong as they are conditioned to believe other.
And it is more than apparent that in time so called ORAL LAW would catch up to it's own self.
Now what you see is a World of people in hurting mode to the point where they have simply become fed up and strength by numbers is trying to play out.

[domeasingold]

So what are you selling: The Youtube video or the kitten?

[frankq]

"In January 2003, Mr. Sinclair’s "Jim Sinclairs MineSet," was launched and now hosts his gold commentary as a free service to the gold community.

On this website Sinclair makes the announcement.
"My position on timing and price is that Gold will trade at USD $1650 before the second week of January 2011."

"I am offering a $1,000,000USD wager to a financially qualified party that this will occur within the stated timeframe. Any party on Bloomberg, CNBC or CNN-Business stating an opposite opinion on the price of gold should be informed of this challenge."

"Please communicate to ANY vocal bearish so-called gold expert that I challenge them to put their money on their views."

"Any commentator unable to financially meet this challenge should not be opining. If they really knew the gold and currency market they could easily meet the challenge."
This means that if the gold price does NOT reach $1650 USD on or before the end of the 1st week of January 2011, then Sinclair will have to cough up the princely sum of One Million US dollars to anyone who takes up his bet"
www.goldprice.org/.../jim-sinclair-bets-million-dollars-gold.html

Oohhhh. Mr. Sinclair owes somebody some serious money.................
Oh Jeez. Not another gold specialist who is bitching about stocks. What a surprise. Do the words "unbiased opinions" mean anything to you Mid?

[frankq]

The only "Oral Laws" you guys should be worried about exist in Alabama.

[midwesterner (banned)]

Profile of the Sociopath

www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

• Glibness and Superficial Charm
  
  
• Manipulative and Conning
  They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.
• 
  
  
• Grandiose Sense of Self Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."
  
  
• Pathological Lying Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.
  
  
• Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
  A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.
  
  
• Shallow Emotions
  When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.
• 
  
  
• Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
  Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.
  
  
• Irresponsibility/Unreliability
  Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.
  

Antisocial Personality Disorder Overview (Written by Derek Wood, RN, BSN, PhD Candidate)

Antisocial Personality Disorder results in what is commonly known as a Sociopath. The criteria for this disorder require an ongoing disregard for the rights of others, since the age of 15 years. Some examples of this disregard are reckless disregard for the safety of themselves or others, failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors, deceitfulness such as repeated lying or deceit for personal profit or pleasure, and lack of remorse for actions that hurt other people in any way. Additionally, they must have evidenced a Conduct Disorder before the age of 15 years, and must be at least 18 years old to receive this diagnosis.

People with this disorder appear to be charming at times, and make relationships, but to them, these are relationships in name only. They are ended whenever necessary or when it suits them, and the relationships are without depth or meaning, including marriages. They seem to have an innate ability to find the weakness in people, and are ready to use these weaknesses to their own ends through deceit, manipulation, or intimidation, and gain pleasure from doing so.

They appear to be incapable of any true emotions, from love to shame to guilt. They are quick to anger, but just as quick to let it go, without holding grudges. No matter what emotion they state they have, it has no bearing on their future actions or attitudes.

[kman]

And ..How does this make you feel Mid?

[frankq]

So, who gets the million bucks?

[frankq]

This thread should be renamed "Mid is full of sh_t" because he basically slanders everyone involved in the investment arena. Guilt by association is his mantra. Investors are the Devil's minions. Only true 'Jeffersonians" are worthy. By the way, didn't Jefferson own slaves? Washington too you say? No, not Hancock! Say it isn't so!

[dumdeedoe]

Damn them sociopaths and the charities they give to.....

www.marketwatch.com/story/charity-event-shows-industry-back-in-rude-health-2010-03-04

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/5741768/Hedge-fund-chief-gives-499-million-to-charity.html



www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/2938255/Hedge-fund-glitterati-break-charity-record.html

www.nytimes.com/2008/10/01/business/01hedge.html?_r=1

[vl]

If the thread bothers all of you this much, why do you continue to post on it? Isn't THAT a trait of a sociopath (see list in post 6)?

[frankq]

Mar 2, 2011 21:06:58 GMT -5 @vl said:

If the thread bothers all of you this much, why do you continue to post on it? Isn't THAT a trait of a sociopath (see list in post 6)?

Maybe, but one trait may be one who professes to be an excellent investor while calling for the destruction of the systems that make investing possible.

[Virgil Showlion]

Your detractors have a point, Mid. Treating "Wall Street" as a monolithic entity isn't particularly insightful.

Wall Street is a collection of individual businesses and individual people, all of who have their own ethical standards. O&G, FTI, and Decoy's approach of taking specific people/companies to task on fraud and manipulation makes for much more compelling reading.

[comokate]

Mar 2, 2011 21:06:58 GMT -5 @vl said:

If the thread bothers all of you this much, why do you continue to post on it? Isn't THAT a trait of a sociopath (see list in post 6)?

I've noticed that too VL,
the same people that kvetch about Mid are the ones that can't seem to stay away from him-

[kman]

And as Virgil points out...You are right there to support the unsightliness.

[comokate]

Mar 2, 2011 22:52:45 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Your detractors have a point, Mid. Treating "Wall Street" as a monolithic entity isn't particularly insightful.

Wall Street is a collection of individual businesses and individual people, all of who have their own ethical standards. O&G, FTI, and Decoy's approach of taking specific people/companies to task on fraud and manipulation makes more much more compelling reading.

'Tis true Virgil;
there are always those who do not fit within generalizations; however, don't kill the messenger. This is a topic that has been discussed quite a bit by psychologists/psychiatrists , and there are a number of books that have been written about it as well. With the "me first" culture that has been encouraged for a few decades in the Western world, sociopathy in business, politics and religion has been noted to be on the rise.
**********************************

“Eternal love story: Your brain’s in love with Wall Street’s brain "
Thaler’s a quant, speaks mostly in cryptic algorithmics. So if you really want to know how Wall Street’s con game works on you, Barry Ritholtz, the financial genius behind “Bailout Nation,” recently summarized it in the Washington Post: “Humans make all the same mistakes, over and over again. It’s how we are wired, the net result of evolution. That flight-or-fight response might have helped your ancestors deal with hungry saber-toothed tigers and territorial Cro Magnons, but it drives investors to make costly emotional decisions.”
Humans have something “akin to brain damage,” says Ritholtz. “To neurophysiologists, who research cognitive functions, the emotionally driven appear to suffer from cognitive deficits that mimic certain types of brain injuries. … Anyone with an intense emotional interest in a subject loses the ability to observe it objectively: You selectively perceive events. You ignore data and facts that disagree with your main philosophy. Even your memory works to fool you, as you selectively retain what you believe in, and subtly mask any memories that might conflict.”
Worse, there’s no cure. “

www.marketwatch.com/story/market-crash-2011-it-will-hit-by-christmas-2011-02-22
************************************
Here's a few links:

www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04232010/watch.html


www.sociopathworld.com/2009/10/sociopaths-on-wall-street.html


www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/07/27/090727fa_fact_gladwell

Does that make everyone who invests in the stock market a sociopath? Of course not. But much of the world's current woes can be directly traced back to sociopathic individuals/entities.





www.amazon.com/Snakes-Suits-When-Psychopaths-Work/dp/0060837721

[Virgil Showlion]

Ha! Touche, Como.

There's no need to convince me of predictable irrationality. You're guilty of it every time you purchase a lottery ticket, buy up 25% more crap at Sears on boxing day, or switch phone companies to save $1.25 a month.

As you're probably aware, my Ph.D. is in electrical engineering--but more specifically in stochastic control, which is a branch of applied mathematics that deals with the evolution of random systems.

I've noticed that even the most basic (frankly, primitive) tenets of probability and statistics can occasionally throw the EE crowd into conniptions in my brainteaser thread. It's not difficult to imagine people making foolish decisions when the stakes are higher and the dynamics are far more complex.

I think any interested party will find this Weekyl Standard article about behavioural economics a fascinating read.

ETA: Regarding my advice to Mid, I stand by my original assessment that he can do more public good by warning MTers against specific scams rather than informing them that they're "predictably stupid losers".

[kman]

Like I said..You propitiate the same mindset. Does this apply to only publically traded companies on an exchange or does this include private placement securities as well?

[comokate]

I stand by my original assessment that he can do more public good by warning MTers against specific scams rather than informing them that they're "predictably stupid losers".

True

[midwesterner (banned)]

Mar 2, 2011 23:31:09 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Ha! Touche, Como.

There's no need to convince me of predictable irrationality. You're guilty of it every time you purchase a lottery ticket, buy up 25% more crap at Sears on boxing day, or switch phone companies to save $1.25 a month.

As you're probably aware, my Ph.D. is in electrical engineering--but more specifically in stochastic control, which is a branch of applied mathematics that deals with the evolution of random systems.

I've noticed that even the most basic (frankly, primitive) tenets of probability and statistics can occasionally throw the EE crowd into conniptions in my brainteaser thread. It's not difficult to imagine people making foolish decisions when the stakes are higher and the dynamics are far more complex.

I think any interested party will find this Weekyl Standard article about behavioural economics a fascinating read.

ETA: Regarding my advice to Mid, I stand by my original assessment that he can do more public good by warning MTers against specific scams rather than informing them that they're "predictably stupid losers".

Funny point you bring up Virgil, many don't understand basic statistics. I'm not talking big stuff, but like you mentioned the lotto. I see this so often, people buying huge amounts of tickets thinking they have so much of a bigger chance to win. 1 ticket is all you need, and the odds change little to none for you by buying 100 tickets. But, people will throw the money out the window. 1 ticket is enough to be in the game, and at least have a chance if however slim.



Getting back to the point, is that this master manipulators, extremely smart, cunning, sly and deceitful sociopaths in wall st take advantage of those (majority) that are trusting, good natured and don't understand things. Many just want to live their lives, not bother with problems of the world.

If many could wrap their heads around this psychology of those that seek money and power, and we as a general populace were educated in this mental disorder and imbalance, I believe more than half to 75% of the worlds problems could be solved.

Problem is, most of those doing the big problems in the world look like this.



and not like this:

[kman]

Do you have anybody on the approved list?

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

I think he is saying the bottom picture is a guy that is on his approved list.

[frankq]

Mar 2, 2011 22:54:55 GMT -5 @comokate said:

Mar 2, 2011 21:06:58 GMT -5 @vl said:

If the thread bothers all of you this much, why do you continue to post on it? Isn't THAT a trait of a sociopath (see list in post 6)?

I've noticed that too VL,
the same people that kvetch about Mid are the ones that can't seem to stay away from him-

Well, you're here kate. What does that say about you? Just because we think you guys are goofy doesn't mean we're going to ignore you. What fun would that be?

[domeasingold]

As you're probably aware, my Ph.D. is in electrical engineering--but more specifically in stochastic control, which is a branch of applied mathematics that deals with the evolution of random systems.

Virgil...I know this is off topic but since you are an E.E., I have a question for you. I am working on a drive system for an electric Airport shuttle bus where the GVW could be 25,000#. Q1: how many KV must the motor be and Q2 how much battery storage to run the bus for 4 hours continous?
I am just a lowly M.E. that designs planetary gear drives and know little of electronics. There are many other factors involved I realize but our group needs to know a baseline for power and storage to determine the path for the driveline.

[comokate]

Mar 3, 2011 7:41:34 GMT -5 frankq said:

Mar 2, 2011 22:54:55 GMT -5 @comokate said:

I've noticed that too VL,
the same people that kvetch about Mid are the ones that can't seem to stay away from him-

Well, you're here kate. What does that say about you? Just because we think you guys are goofy doesn't mean we're going to ignore you. What fun would that be?

I'm quite aware of the "fun" you seem to have with your buds mocking others; it's openly ( and permanently) displayed for all to see. Ah...the digital age-

[kman]

Digital threats are in the new age as well.

[frankq]

"I'm quite aware of the "fun" you seem to have with your buds mocking others; it's openly ( and permanently) displayed for all to see. Ah...the digital age"

Oh no! Please don't tell my dad!

[vl]

"Maybe, but one trait may be one who professes to be an excellent investor while calling for the destruction of the systems that make investing possible."

Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=moneytalk&action=display&thread=4197#ixzz1FZl3ljC1

So you're saying-- if I don't invest where you invest-- that I'm not a good investor or not a sociopath like you? Organized (criminal) investing has lost 45% of the public's investing dollars TWICE in the past 10 years. I'm good where I've got mine.

"Oh no! Please don't tell my dad!"

He knows the trouble he has brought into the world and loves you any way.

[frankq]

V.L.

I'm saying that if you are going to continually call for the complete destruction of the financial system, then it's doubtful that you invest because the two are mutually exclusive. Period. If people held to the bottom and sold, then they shouldn't be handling money. Those who didn't panic recovered. Those who "actively" manage their money did very well. Both times. There are bonds and CD's for those of you that don't want to put the time and effort into investing. You guys are all the same, all "successful" investors who never disclose their investments. You're right. You're not a sociopath, you're a psychotic. You were neck deep in the system that helped create this mess but, of course, you never made a questionable transaction. You guys are all the same. It's always somebody else's fault that your world sucks. As far as being "trouble", that's right Buckwheat, but only for those who find my bad side.

[vl]

then it's doubtful that you invest because the two are mutually exclusive.

Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=moneytalk&action=display&thread=4197&page=2#ixzz1FZtLVHGM

Heavens... what was done before Wall Street? What was done before Hedge Funds, Mutual Funds and Banks having Investment divisions dedicated to wealth building? NONE of these helped build America, so why are they inclusive and critical now.
I'll stick with collapsing the scam and separating the golden eggs from the green hams.