Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Mar 2, 2011 20:37:24 GMT -5
I guess you're going to have to point out where the Koran teaches 'world dominance a la Allah'... or is that what someone told you it said? I must have missed that part.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 2, 2011 20:58:33 GMT -5
...you two are kidding, right?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2011 21:08:18 GMT -5
No, could you please quote the passages you are referring to? Thanks.
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Post by ed1066 on Mar 2, 2011 21:19:43 GMT -5
Here's the chapter and verse, go get your Koran and look it up:
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 2, 2011 21:26:14 GMT -5
No, could you please quote the passages you are referring to? Thanks. ...wow... for someone who prides themselves on their research, wow... ...and well, if I quote the principle source then that would, by their definition, make me muslim, so look up "shahadah" yourself please... and other quotes would entail most all of the Koran, and, by their decree, would need to be in Arabic, so look that up, too, please... ...but basically "Shariah" is the legislative nutshell from the Koran... a constitution, if you will... and makes no distinction between the heavenly and the earthly... and if Allah is it, and his laws are it, for all heaven and earth, then the infidel needs to move over... or be removed... capisce?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 2, 2011 21:31:24 GMT -5
...that's a good one, ed... thx... and boy is my computer slow at refreshing... I didn't see your post... ETA: here's another: (67:1) Blessed is He *1 in Whose Hand is the dominion of the Universe, *2 and Who has power over everything. ...and another: 9:29, Those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day – even though they were given the scriptures, and who do not hold as unlawful that which Allah and His Messenger have declared to be unlawful, and who do not follow the true religion – fight against them until they pay tribute out of their hands and are utterly subdued.
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flopsy
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Post by flopsy on Mar 2, 2011 21:35:36 GMT -5
Muslim groups fear the measure would outlaw central tenets of Islam, such as praying five times a day toward Mecca, abstaining from alcohol and fasting for Ramadan so they are going to be forced to drink alcohol and to eat through out the year?
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Mar 2, 2011 21:36:12 GMT -5
Muslim groups fear the measure would outlaw central tenets of Islam, such as praying five times a day toward Mecca, abstaining from alcohol and fasting for Ramadan so they are going to be forced to drink alcohol and to eat through out the year? bummer!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2011 21:49:59 GMT -5
Oh... i thought you meant this one: If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
no wait... that's not the Quran...
hmm... maybe this one: He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
oops... no that's not the Quran either... hmmm...
Actually 9:33 specifically deals with idol worshipers, much as the Christian texts speak against idol worship, the Quran distinguishes between this an other monotheistic religions.
48:28 does translate about proclaiming Islam over all religions... much as the bible passages i quoted above suggest a superiority to Christianity (as do many Christians...) there are different meanings attributed, whether it means it would become a dominant religion based on its superior truths, or would be held above when judgement comes (much like the 'we are the ones who will be saved factions) ... the full translation is "Who has sent His (Prophetic) Messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all the religions. And Sufficient is Allah as Witness."
61:9 is basically a restatement/combo... with the same truth in religion and idolator statements together... "He has sent His messenger with the guidance and the true religion, and will make it dominate all religions, in spite of the idol worshipers. "
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 2, 2011 21:57:52 GMT -5
...so you do have the info, so why ask? to debate? what you've posted doesn't refute what was earlier mentioned... so what gives? ...and to quote Old Testament verses of Jehovah's wrath, without quoting the New Testament verses of his grace, is insufficient to make an argument for Chrisitianity wanting to dominate the earth... ...besides, a "well, he does it, too!" reason won't work, anyway... and I'm pretty sure you've argued against that yourself...
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 2, 2011 22:01:57 GMT -5
Sharia law comes, primarily, from the Hadith.
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flopsy
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Post by flopsy on Mar 2, 2011 22:02:16 GMT -5
so they are going to be forced to drink alcohol and to eat through out the year? bummer! but they'd be more than welcome on EE
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2011 22:12:24 GMT -5
... ...and to quote Old Testament verses of Jehovah's wrath, without quoting the New Testament verses of his grace, is insufficient to make an argument for Chrisitianity wanting to dominate the earth.. My purpose was not to suggest that Christianity wants to domonate the earth (although their actions often seem to suggest they do want just that)... My purpose was to show how someone taking a single passage, or series of passages out of a book... and saying that they represent the entire mentality of the people who believe in that book... is not accurate...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2011 22:20:49 GMT -5
And no... actually, i did not know which passages you were talking about when you said "the Koran teaches 'world dominance a la Allah'" ... Because the passages there actually DO NOT say that... no matter how much you would like them to....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2011 22:21:49 GMT -5
This message has been deleted... Duplicate!
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Mar 2, 2011 22:31:49 GMT -5
Some parts of Shariah are already illegal. Such as beating your wife, killing a daughter for wanting to marry someone who her father does not approve, etc.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 2, 2011 22:35:07 GMT -5
... ...and to quote Old Testament verses of Jehovah's wrath, without quoting the New Testament verses of his grace, is insufficient to make an argument for Chrisitianity wanting to dominate the earth.. My purpose was not to suggest that Christianity wants to domonate the earth (although their actions often seem to suggest they do want just that)... My purpose was to show how someone taking a single passage, or series of passages out of a book... and saying that the represent the entire mentality of the people who believe in that book... is not accurate... Well said, oped. We send our "missionaries" all over the world, including into countries that already have an established spiritual belief in place. These "missionaries" have never had any compunction about telling those people their beliefs are all wrong and they need to be Christians ... at once!
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burnsattornincan
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Post by burnsattornincan on Mar 2, 2011 22:42:31 GMT -5
The problem I have with your expected attacks against Christianity is that this country was built on those values, not that of middle eastern countries that follow Islam. We have done quite well without their influence and I have no idea why our governments have allowed them to infiltrate our territory. They had no hand in what we have accomplished yet seem quite ready to reap its benefits and even try to undermine what we have accomplished through economic terrorism. They are currently winning that war as our debt has ballooned to dangerous levels with "security" being a primary reason. I think it is time to make some amendments to the Constitution. It has been done most recently in a liberal tone. It is high time to append some right wing tones.
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Mar 2, 2011 23:05:25 GMT -5
...and to quote Old Testament verses of Jehovah's wrath, without quoting the New Testament verses of his grace, is insufficient to make an argument for Chrisitianity wanting to dominate the earth... Talk about hypocrisy, to quote the Old Testament without a sprinkle of the New Testament doesn't give an accurate picture of Christianity, yet every quote from the Qur'an in this thread has been taken from Mohammad's teachings in Medina completely ignoring his teachings from Mecca, but you all are painting an accurate picture of Islam right? 73:10 Be patient with what they say, and part from them courteously 5:28 If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds. 5:69 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 109:6 To you be your religion, and to me my religion 10:99 If it had been thy Lord's Will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! Wilt thou then compel mankind against their will to believe 29:45 Argue with people of the book, other than evil doers, only by means of what are better and say, we believe in what has been sent down to us and sent down to you. Our God is the same as your God, and we are surrendered to Him. AND one of my personal favorites: 5:82 Thou wilt find the nearest of them in love to the believers (Muslims) are those who say 'We are Christians". If a billion people in the world believed that all Christians thought like and only believed what was said in the Old Testament, would it concern you as a Christian?
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Mar 2, 2011 23:20:49 GMT -5
And no... actually, i did not know which passages you were talking about when you said "the Koran teaches 'world dominance a la Allah'" ... Because the passages there actually DO NOT say that... no matter how much you would like them to.... Yah, still waiting for the passages!!
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Post by ed1066 on Mar 2, 2011 23:23:23 GMT -5
If there were also thousands of terrorist attacks all over the world being perpetrated in the name of Christianity, yes it would concern me deeply...
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 3, 2011 0:08:35 GMT -5
...and this discussion, however difficult, ought not overlook that when discussing followers of religion, one must consider the "holy scriptures" of that religion and the ultimate goals therein... rather than rely on the orthodoxy demonstrated by the followers themselves... so, if the Koran "preaches" world dominance a la Allah, (and it does,) then that is the "threat" to the non-Muslim... ...here are my thoughts... the bottom line is that this is not a theology lesson thread... it is a thread about the legislative response in TN concerning an encroaching Islam... essentially, a defense mechanism of sorts... and posts in the thread discount the need for such a reaction for various reasons... redundancy... unwarranted fear... etc.... ...well, I contributed my post (above) that we can't refute the fear of Islam simply because its adherents are not always hostile or are often peaceful since, as a religion rather than a race, we must consider its "end goal" and not its current orthodoxy... remembering that ideologies are not static like race or gender, etc., we must not stop at judging this book by its cover... ...I'll stand corrected if that is wrong... (...and let's keep in mind that I'm not asking for apologetics for any theology... )
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Mar 3, 2011 0:18:05 GMT -5
There is no encroaching Islam, just some crazy people imagining that there is. And we've already refuted what the "end goal" is. So what's your point?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 3, 2011 0:25:03 GMT -5
...I think you just illustrated it, in a reverse kind of way... thanks...
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Post by ed1066 on Mar 3, 2011 0:27:21 GMT -5
Yes, I think a certain river in Egypt just came to mind...I bestow karma on you, BTDT.
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burnsattornincan
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Post by burnsattornincan on Mar 3, 2011 0:33:10 GMT -5
And we've already refuted what the "end goal" is.
You have refuted fuckall. What is your refute to the serious problems in Europe? Remember the car burnings in France? Oh, they were just "disenfranchised" Muslims. Well if it was so bad there then just get back to the middle east. Whats the holdup. You know they get welfare checks for each kid they pop out, right? Why work. The more kids the more dough. A guaranteed income. Did you know that some even send this money back to countries like Afghanistan to fund initiatives that could have killed an American soldier you know? This is fact that is not widely distributed, for good reason.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 3, 2011 0:36:09 GMT -5
<<< I bestow karma on you, BTDT. >>>
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 3, 2011 8:57:48 GMT -5
Not sure what to say to that. I'm sure there are plenty of peaceful Muslims, but the version of Islam that is being practiced by a large percentage of the world (as well as the Islamic theocracies that govern them) is not peaceful, especially towards women, gays, other religions and children. Your information may vary, but the widespread human rights abuses in Muslim countries tell a different story... Ed mentions the key component missing in the US to strictly following sharia law....the US does not have the islamic authority to support acts of hate and violence committed in the name of sharia law.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 3, 2011 12:42:37 GMT -5
"............I wonder what other religions think of Ann Coulter's assertions that we should 'invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity?..........." oped, that may well be part of the problem. That is, , , , maybe they think that if they can't have their abusive religious practices, beatings, rapes, no male friends outside of the family, honor killings and such , , , they will just be like all the Christians and Jews in the world, and that would be worse fate than an unmartyred death. Here again, we seem to have a problem with some people not understanding the use of SARCASM to make the point that we DO NOT behave like radical islamists. There's no global threat of extremist Christianity. There is a very real threat of extremist islamists.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 3, 2011 12:47:28 GMT -5
I'm simply impatient with people who see the islamist threat as "racism", or "anti-religion", etc. Radical islam doesn't plug-n-play with the far left template of America. It's outside partisan lines. These people are NOT YOUR FRIENDS. Even if you're on the far left, you need to abandon whatever advantage you get from the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and understand that if you are cooperating in any way with them weakening the systems of the west you do not like, they are NOT YOUR FRIENDS. Radical islamists-- which includes ANY AND ALL muslims who would attempt to establish in ANY FROM Sharia in the United States are our ENEMIES. ALL of our enemies-- even you whacky peace loving leftist types simply have to face this reality.
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