Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 2, 2011 13:37:32 GMT -5
PLEASE listen to the New Jersey Case, and the Student case in MN, and PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not have your normal knee jerk reaction to Newt, to me, or to "the right". I have no idea what MN case you are talking about, but the NJ ruling was overturned & last I heard the guy was facing criminal charges.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 2, 2011 13:40:15 GMT -5
This measure is unconstitutional. Maybe we could outlaw Shariah in criminal cases, but I don't even thing that is necessary because it effectively already is we are not going to condone wife beating or honor killings even if we allow Shariah law in civil matters so this seem like a big waste of time. Totally agree. Who cares if they choose to pray, fast for ramadan, or abstain from alcohol. The only parts to worry about are the parts that involve the criminal cases & I can't imagine there would be a situation where a court would uphold a ruling that it was ok for a man to beat his wife. One judge might ok it, but it will eventually get overturned.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 2, 2011 13:41:24 GMT -5
Should Muslims in the United States be allowed to practice Sharia law regarding civil matters (divorce, family law, etc.) as an option to using secular courts as Jews are currently allowed to practice Beth Din or Jewish Law (since 1960) regarding civil matters? Um, that is because US Law IS Jewish / Christian law. Our Constitution's separation of powers is almost word-for-word from the Bible book of Dueteronomy. The entire concept of free will is from the first Chapter of the first book of Genesis. The whole concept of law and justice is from the Ten Commandments. Most of Islam is compatible with US law- but that's not what this is about. What we don't want is anything like the case in NJ where a man claims a right to beat and rape his wife due to his religion and a brainless liberal judge agreed with it. At the very least the judge should be OFF the bench-- removed. Yesterday. And in my perfect world- we'd charge that judge with whatever you charge a person with that failed to report, harbored, aided, abbetted a wife beater.
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ChiTownVenture
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Post by ChiTownVenture on Mar 2, 2011 13:41:45 GMT -5
This measure is unconstitutional. Maybe we could outlaw Shariah in criminal cases, but I don't even thing that is necessary because it effectively already is we are not going to condone wife beating or honor killings even if we allow Shariah law in civil matters so this seem like a big waste of time. Where are the laws against Satanism? After all doesn't Satanism allow for human sacrifice, and molestation. Or do we rely on our non religion laws to protect us. The US should not have a law or constitutional amendment that is against a specific religion. It goes against the separation of church and state. We can enact laws that have the same effect without specifically stating a religion. There is no need to have a separate set of laws dedicated to a religion.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 2, 2011 13:42:32 GMT -5
Again, big discrepencies between Beth Din and Sharia, though I wouldn't expect a moral relativist with a dislike of Jews to understand or admit that. Most Beth Din arbitration is around what is or is not compliant with kashrut (Jewish dietary laws). This includes arbitrating inspections of kosher food facilities and certifying inspectors. This is a complex and sometimes arduous process. Beth Din also arbitrates the requirements for getting a Jewish divorce (a "get") and arbitrating questions of Jewish heritage. One key component of Beth Din, missing in Sharia, is that arbitration findings must be compliant and enforceable by the standards of American law: www.bethdin.org/docs/PDF2-Rules_and_Procedures.pdfPoor ed. I am not advocating for Sharia law in the U.S. I don't believe there should be any religious courts deciding civil let alone criminal matters in our country. Everything should be handled in secular courts.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 2, 2011 13:43:36 GMT -5
It's really alarming to see how lightly you take the beating and raping of a woman. So, she should just endure until whenever "eventually" is? Or that judge should have a tool at his disposal to restrain the man, and on the flip side, that judge should know WE THE PEOPLE have a tool at our disposal to arrest, charge, convict, and incarcerate him?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 2, 2011 13:44:10 GMT -5
We don't have "secular" courts. There's no such thing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2011 13:44:36 GMT -5
Windy,
I take it you have stopped beating your wife?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 2, 2011 13:46:27 GMT -5
Should Muslims in the United States be allowed to practice Sharia law regarding civil matters (divorce, family law, etc.) as an option to using secular courts as Jews are currently allowed to practice Beth Din or Jewish Law (since 1960) regarding civil matters? Um, that is because US Law IS Jewish / Christian law. Our Constitution's separation of powers is almost word-for-word from the Bible book of Dueteronomy. The entire concept of free will is from the first Chapter of the first book of Genesis. The whole concept of law and justice is from the Ten Commandments. Most of Islam is compatible with US law- but that's not what this is about. What we don't want is anything like the case in NJ where a man claims a right to beat and rape his wife due to his religion and a brainless liberal judge agreed with it. At the very least the judge should be OFF the bench-- removed. Yesterday. And in my perfect world- we'd charge that judge with whatever you charge a person with that failed to report, harbored, aided, abbetted a wife beater. So we allow Beth Din rabbinical courts in the United States because our country was founded on Christian-Judeo laws.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 2, 2011 13:48:23 GMT -5
We don't have "secular" courts. There's no such thing. So are our courts religious or secular-which is it?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 2, 2011 13:49:19 GMT -5
Windy, I take it you have stopped beating your wife? Knock it off Archie-it wasn't funny the first time either.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2011 13:50:17 GMT -5
Windy, I take it you have stopped beating your wife? Knock it off Archie-it wasn't funny the first time either. Come on. It is a classic question.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 2, 2011 13:56:16 GMT -5
Um, that is because US Law IS Jewish / Christian law. Our Constitution's separation of powers is almost word-for-word from the Bible book of Dueteronomy. The entire concept of free will is from the first Chapter of the first book of Genesis. The whole concept of law and justice is from the Ten Commandments. Most of Islam is compatible with US law- but that's not what this is about. What we don't want is anything like the case in NJ where a man claims a right to beat and rape his wife due to his religion and a brainless liberal judge agreed with it. At the very least the judge should be OFF the bench-- removed. Yesterday. And in my perfect world- we'd charge that judge with whatever you charge a person with that failed to report, harbored, aided, abbetted a wife beater. So we allow Beth Din rabbinical courts in the United States because our country was founded on Christian-Judeo laws. We have courts that hear US Law and no other. It just happens that the roots of US Laws run deep into Judaeo-Christian law and tradition. Therefore, US law is decidedly religious, and not secular, but also not denominational, or interfaith. It's just US Law. Period. A judge that uses anything other than the US Law as a point of reference should be impeached.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 2, 2011 13:57:55 GMT -5
Knock it off Archie-it wasn't funny the first time either. Come on. It is a classic question. I have to side with Arch here. Some people just don't have a sarcasm detector-- of course it helps if they have a point of reference. It's pretty clear to me that 'ol TN hasn't been exposed to this before. Try GOOGLE: "have you stopped beating your wife" and get some perspective.
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Mar 2, 2011 13:58:21 GMT -5
"...........It's a waste of time......"
I read that as telling women that "You chose that lifestyle, now live with it"
I think America has risen above that frame of mind. I think it is time we gave women a choice that they will not find support for within the macho male dominated Sharia culture where the macho male is more likely to be a sorry loser sort that blames his shortcomings on anything weaker than he is and takes it out in violence and other abusive tactics against others.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 2, 2011 14:06:41 GMT -5
Come on. It is a classic question. I have to side with Arch here. Some people just don't have a sarcasm detector-- of course it helps if they have a point of reference. It's pretty clear to me that 'ol TN hasn't been exposed to this before. Try GOOGLE: "have you stopped beating your wife" and get some perspective. pbp-I am quite aware it is a classic loaded question. It has bee around for ages-even longer than you.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Mar 2, 2011 14:08:36 GMT -5
"...........It's a waste of time......" I read that as telling women that "You chose that lifestyle, now live with it" You need to read better. There is no need to specifically outlaw Shariah law because it does not now trump federal/state criminal law. At no point do I say or imply that it is ok to physically abuse anyone, and to do so today is unlawful in every jurisdiction I know of in the United States, so I see no reason to try to pass a clearly unconstitutional law that is prohibiting the clear exercise of religious.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 2, 2011 14:49:56 GMT -5
It's really alarming to see how lightly you take the beating and raping of a woman. So, she should just endure until whenever "eventually" is? Or that judge should have a tool at his disposal to restrain the man, and on the flip side, that judge should know WE THE PEOPLE have a tool at our disposal to arrest, charge, convict, and incarcerate him? How am I taking it lightly? One judge makes a poor decision that has been overturned. This isn't a continuing problem or anything. We don't need a law against a specific religion when the US criminal law already supersedes all other religious laws. If anything this case has already set a precedence that shariah law is not an acceptable defense in criminal cases.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 2, 2011 15:15:05 GMT -5
Should muslim men be allowed to beat their wifes? Isn't it already illegal to beat your wife?
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 2, 2011 15:20:20 GMT -5
Isn't it already illegal to beat your wife?
Yeah... if shariah law was in effect here, those observing it would be allowed to engage in this sort of heinous act.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Mar 2, 2011 15:26:00 GMT -5
Isn't it already illegal to beat your wife?Yeah... if shariah law was in effect here, those observing it would be allowed to engage in this sort of heinous act. Right, so there is no reason to outlaw something that is not in effect. When a state decides to ALLOW shariah law, then we can start to get excited.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 2, 2011 15:29:12 GMT -5
Honestly, I'm taking names on this thread. If we can't all be AMERICANS on this issue, then I'm writing some of you off for good as lost and gone forever.
You simply MUST agree that the imposition of Sharia upon, or even the consideration of Sharia in our courts is completely, and without exception, intolerable, and ought to be illegal; And no threat, false imprisonment, rape, or violence is justifiable as an expression of religious freedom for anyone of any faith tradition. It cannot be tolerated, and if you do not agree-- you're either a useful idiot, or an outright enemy of our country.
We are debating political doctrine where, we're trying to avoid a revolution and the imposition of a theocracy in the United States in small increments by radical islamists who seek one small legal precedent at at time to impose their vision of Sharia for America.
If you can't support something that puts an abrupt halt to the islamist vision of Sharia for America, you're part of the problem, and should have NO say in the solution.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 2, 2011 15:29:41 GMT -5
Right, so there is no reason to outlaw something that is not in effect.
It is govts job to protect those living here. This is a real threat. We need to stay ahead of the curve and be prepared for the thread.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 2, 2011 15:31:25 GMT -5
Isn't it already illegal to beat your wife?Yeah... if shariah law was in effect here, those observing it would be allowed to engage in this sort of heinous act. If it snowed in FL in July, we'd all be mighty cold down here too. What does "IF" have to do with it?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 2, 2011 15:32:45 GMT -5
Right, so there is no reason to outlaw something that is not in effect.It is govts job to protect those living here. This is a real threat. We need to stay ahead of the curve and be prepared for the thread. We've already had a confused liberal judge in New Jersey that had to be instructed that a man wasn't justified by Sharia to repeatedly beat and rape his wife. This clarifies the issue to the remaining dolts- and that judge as I imagine he has yet to be removed from the bench. It gives the people a tool to reign in the radical Sharia for America vision of the extremist islamists. And it gives us a disciplinary tool for confused liberal judges- of which there are many.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 2, 2011 15:34:54 GMT -5
Sharia was already considered and deemed valid by one judge. We can't take the chance that this will happen anywhere else which is why there should be a federal law barring any court in America from considering Sharia, and for that matter any other foreign law in a court room in The United States of America.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 2, 2011 15:44:30 GMT -5
Sharia was already considered and deemed valid by one judge. We can't take the chance that this will happen anywhere else which is why there should be a federal law barring any court in America from considering Sharia, and for that matter any other foreign law in a court room in The United States of America. Yes, It was an incorrect ruling (a glaringly obvious error IMHO) that was overturned in a higher court. Isn't that the way it is supposed to work? ETA: I remember when that story broke. Like you, I was outraged and I thought about starting a thread. I thought about it for a while and hen I thought that this ruling is so obviously wrong that there was no way in hell it would ever stand.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 2, 2011 15:45:37 GMT -5
Sharia was already considered and deemed valid by one judge. We can't take the chance that this will happen anywhere else which is why there should be a federal law barring any court in America from considering Sharia, and for that matter any other foreign law in a court room in The United States of America. Yes, It was an incorrect ruling (a glaringly obvious error IMHO) that was overturned in a higher court. Isn't that the way it is supposed to work? Yup. I'm interested in who Paul is going to give the names to. Apparently disagreeing with him is a treasonous offense.
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burnsattornincan
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Post by burnsattornincan on Mar 2, 2011 15:50:41 GMT -5
If you can't support something that puts an abrupt halt to the islamist vision of Sharia for America, you're part of the problem, and should have NO say in the solution.
I don't know what it will take to wake some people up to the reality of the Islamic goal to rule the world. It is happening to an alarming degree right in long time allied countries England and France. I predict one of those countries will be the first to take the final step and outlaw Islam from being practiced within the borders. Obviously that will set off a confrontation where virtual civil war will ensue. The impact will vary depending on when this happens, the sooner the better as their numbers keep multiplying far beyond that of natural citizens.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 2, 2011 15:52:15 GMT -5
I'm interested in who Paul is going to give the names to. Apparently disagreeing with him is a treasonous offense. Hell, put my name on the top. I'm on so many lists now, one more won't matter.
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