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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 22:40:23 GMT -5
So, if she doesn't actively protest, if she doesn't 'fight enough' it's not rape? ...
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steff
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Post by steff on Sept 29, 2014 22:40:40 GMT -5
are you equating "having sex" with rape? Because after Paul's bullshit, if this is what you are saying, I'm totally going nutso batshit crazy & will need a time out. No. GEL was. No YOU compared "no one wants to be robbed" and "women WANT to have sex". Rape and having sex are two DRASTICALLY different things. |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 29, 2014 22:40:51 GMT -5
are you equating "having sex" with rape? Because after Paul's bullshit, if this is what you are saying, I'm totally going nutso batshit crazy & will need a time out. No. GEL was. No, GEL WAS NOT! |
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Sept 29, 2014 22:41:46 GMT -5
If she wants to have sex, she'll do so voluntarily and with pleasure, I'm sure. She will not do so by lying there like a shot frog, Richard. Missed the point. "Silent and going along with what they tell you to do at gunpoint during a robbery" is considered trying to saving your life. Because no one wants to be robbed. "Silent and going along with what's happening sexually" can be considered consent, absent any force or threat. Because humans (generally) want to have sex. Maybe "just laying there like a shot frog" is what they think they are supposed to do... because their parents taught them "it's bad, you should only do it this way". Maybe they aren't excited because "Bobby with the hot body" turns out to be "Mister Micro-Peen"... there are several reasons I can think of (and probably MANY, many more that escape me) for "less than active participation" that have nothing to do with unwillingness to participate. And you don't think "silent and going along with what's happening" isn't an attempt to save your life when being raped? Because no one wants to be raped either. But, generally, they like the thought of dying even less. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 22:42:10 GMT -5
the definition of rape is quite simple: sex without consent. if you don't get it, spend more time thinking about it before you start talking as if you were an expert. there is a whole range of activity that doesn't conform to consent. it is ALL rape. we can all spend hours on end here describing these cases, but it really is fairly simple and uncontroversial. While I agree wholeheartedly with that in general... there's a whole range of activity that does conform to consent, that many will dismiss as not actually being so. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 29, 2014 22:42:21 GMT -5
Funny you should bring up libertarian. The WOMAN I got this article from is a LIBERTARIAN / ANARCHIST. She posted it on her facebook page, and she seems to have had no problem grasping the point of the article. "Misled by the naive optimism and “You go, girl!” boosterism of their upbringing, young women do not see the animal eyes glowing at them in the dark. They assume that bared flesh and sexy clothes are just a fashion statement containing no messages that might be misread and twisted by a psychotic. They do not understand the fragility of civilization and the constant nearness of savage nature." Do you know what I posted in response to her? "I can already hear the shrill cries of "DON'T BLAME THE VICTIM!!!" - for the record she "liked" my comment.  this can't be real....not in this day and age....there just can't be people who still think like this. i think the problem is that there is not enough generalized ethical thinking going on in modern society. if you ask a man if it is OK for a cop to forcibly stick his flashlight in one of your orifices, i think most men will say no. but apparently they have a little trouble "universalizing" this concept. |
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 29, 2014 22:42:38 GMT -5
Funny you should bring up libertarian. The WOMAN I got this article from is a LIBERTARIAN / ANARCHIST. She posted it on her facebook page, and she seems to have had no problem grasping the point of the article. "Misled by the naive optimism and “You go, girl!” boosterism of their upbringing, young women do not see the animal eyes glowing at them in the dark. They assume that bared flesh and sexy clothes are just a fashion statement containing no messages that might be misread and twisted by a psychotic. They do not understand the fragility of civilization and the constant nearness of savage nature." Do you know what I posted in response to her? "I can already hear the shrill cries of "DON'T BLAME THE VICTIM!!!" - for the record she "liked" my comment. this can't be real....not in this day and age....there just can't be people who still think like this.  |
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Post by justme on Sept 29, 2014 22:42:39 GMT -5
Funny you should bring up libertarian. The WOMAN I got this article from is a LIBERTARIAN / ANARCHIST. She posted it on her facebook page, and she seems to have had no problem grasping the point of the article. "Misled by the naive optimism and “You go, girl!” boosterism of their upbringing, young women do not see the animal eyes glowing at them in the dark. They assume that bared flesh and sexy clothes are just a fashion statement containing no messages that might be misread and twisted by a psychotic. They do not understand the fragility of civilization and the constant nearness of savage nature." Do you know what I posted in response to her? "I can already hear the shrill cries of "DON'T BLAME THE VICTIM!!!" - for the record she "liked" my comment. Ok. I'll bite, on several levels. First - I love seeing Rocky Horror Picture Show live. You know it? It's before my time (I'm late 20s) so I think you should know it, but I know there's some that were around this time that don't know it. I've gone several times. When I was 19/20 we'd go at least once a month because there was troupe in town. Not only that we (my friends and I) among with a fair number of other people loved to dress up. I mean corset, thigh highs and heels, and like barely there shorts or skirts. Yeah, we probably got some catcalls, but no one touched us except with our friends and our permission. And mind you this was taking place at a TOURIST location where literally thousands came to that location after 10pm so it was not for lack of people to try to come after us because of our provocative clothing. Hell, security there well knew and accepted the RHPS crowd and stepped in the few times there was a drunken asshole that wouldn't leave us alone (BTW, we were 100% sober). I far more often get catcalled after and grabbed wearing far less that what I wore to RHPS. "Twisted by a psychotic" Do you really think most guys who rape women are psychotic? If you do then you're severely misled. One of my friends was raped by her bf (and no, if you talked to her it was not a misunderstanding) . Another was by a guy she had been introduced to by her close friends (considering she had to go to counseling after she was flunking out of college after this happened because she was afraid to leave her place to go to class I'm going to go with she wasn't lying - if you need evidence beyond me knowing her since kindergarten). I crashed at a guy friends house because I was stuck there late (my printer stopped working and I had a paper due the next day and I trusted the guy). I took him saying go ahead and crash here because it's already past 1am and I don't want you to have to drive alone and then walk alone back to your apt. Really nice guy right? Thinking of my safety right? That's what I though too. Until I awoke a few hours later to him moving my hand to grab his junk. Luckily I some how played off still being asleep and rolling away and left as soon as it was light (because I didn't sleep a bit since he did that). If he kept going I would have left, but I decided that an asshole that would do that to someone SLEEPING wouldn't react the greatest to her waking up and wanting to leave so I decided to play a tossing and turning person while sleeping. Or how about that guy that I was dating and had to break up with him because he wouldn't take no for an answer. Literally I had to shove my knees into his chest to get him off me and that only worked because the pain knocked some sense into him and he realized how scared I was and how much I was saying no. Up until that point he was in "the zone". As much as it's bullshit, he really didn't hear me until I was physically doing all I could to get him off me. I'm only lucky and thankful that I a) was able to move enough to get his attention and cause him pain and b) when snapped back to normal with my panic that he was a good enough guy to actually stop and feel like an asshole. |
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steff
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Post by steff on Sept 29, 2014 22:42:51 GMT -5
Fear is NOT fucking consent!
ok, as an actual rape victim, I have to leave this conversation. The men here are making my skin crawl.
ETA: not all the men here, just certain ones. I don't want to throw the same HUGE dipshit blanket over all men.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 29, 2014 22:43:28 GMT -5
the definition of rape is quite simple: sex without consent. if you don't get it, spend more time thinking about it before you start talking as if you were an expert. there is a whole range of activity that doesn't conform to consent. it is ALL rape. we can all spend hours on end here describing these cases, but it really is fairly simple and uncontroversial. While I agree wholeheartedly with that in general... there's a whole range of activity that does conform to consent, that many will dismiss as not actually being so. then let me offer such people some words of wisdom: your degree of uncertainty is your risk in the affair. |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 29, 2014 22:43:34 GMT -5
the definition of rape is quite simple: sex without consent. if you don't get it, spend more time thinking about it before you start talking as if you were an expert. there is a whole range of activity that doesn't conform to consent. it is ALL rape. we can all spend hours on end here describing these cases, but it really is fairly simple and uncontroversial. While I agree wholeheartedly with that in general... there's a whole range of activity that does conform to consent, that many will dismiss as not actually being so. That's because it isn't consent. Just because YOU determine something looks like consent to YOU, that doesn't mean it's consent. The one who determines whether it's consent, or not, is the one who's in the position to give it, or withhold it. |
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 29, 2014 22:44:57 GMT -5
Fear is NOT fucking consent! ok, as an actual rape victim, I have to leave this conversation. The men here are making my skin crawl. yes, steff. clam down. no matter how loud you cry, the deaf can't hear.  |
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 29, 2014 22:46:20 GMT -5
the definition of rape is quite simple: sex without consent. if you don't get it, spend more time thinking about it before you start talking as if you were an expert. there is a whole range of activity that doesn't conform to consent. it is ALL rape. we can all spend hours on end here describing these cases, but it really is fairly simple and uncontroversial. While I agree wholeheartedly with that in general... there's a whole range of activity that does conform to consent, that many will dismiss as not actually being so. Correct, and this is the problem I think some here are having. Sex without consent is rape, but does that mean that sex without a singed contract consenting to it and particularly describing the activities to take place, is rape? Some here seem to think so, and that is a problem. |
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Post by justme on Sept 29, 2014 22:46:22 GMT -5
If she wants to have sex, she'll do so voluntarily and with pleasure, I'm sure. She will not do so by lying there like a shot frog, Richard. Missed the point. "Silent and going along with what they tell you to do at gunpoint during a robbery" is considered trying to saving your life. Because no one wants to be robbed. "Silent and going along with what's happening sexually" can be considered consent, absent any force or threat. Because humans (generally) want to have sex. Maybe "just laying there like a shot frog" is what they think they are supposed to do... because their parents taught them "it's bad, you should only do it this way". Maybe they aren't excited because "Bobby with the hot body" turns out to be "Mister Micro-Peen"... there are several reasons I can think of (and probably MANY, many more that escape me) for "less than active participation" that have nothing to do with unwillingness to participate. Just wondering. Has a girl/women ever had her hands/legs on your arms/legs to a point where you literally can't move. Not that you can't move because you don't want to hurt her, but where her 200+ lbs are on top of your limbs and you weigh 130lbs and can't move. |
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 29, 2014 22:46:48 GMT -5
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP, do ya think ya might relieve all of us of having to look at a bunch of stupid advertisement in Reply #97 just to get a gander at your oh, so impressive post (which I'd be willing to wager nobody here gives a flip about)?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 22:47:29 GMT -5
No YOU compared "no one wants to be robbed" and "women WANT to have sex". Rape and having sex are two DRASTICALLY different things. Yes. She was. In response to mmhmm: Has it ever occurred to you that a woman being raped may well not resist, and may well not say anything at all? Has it maybe dawned on you she might be afraid to move?  Keep that in mind if you are ever being robbed at gunpoint. If you don't scream your head off and don't try to kick him in the balls, you secretly want to get robbed and are, therefore, giving consent to be robbed. If you do as you are told, hoping to not get shot, you are just asking for it, lady! Why do I let this stuff raise my BP? Now I have a headache. She brought in the idea of robbery (something that NO PERSON WANTS) to compare it with something that MANY people want (sex). Misunderstand if it makes you happy. |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 29, 2014 22:48:37 GMT -5
While I agree wholeheartedly with that in general... there's a whole range of activity that does conform to consent, that many will dismiss as not actually being so. Correct, and this is the problem I think some here are having. Sex without consent is rape, but does that mean that sex without a singed contract consenting to it and particularly describing the activities to take place, is rape? Some here seem to think so, and that is a problem. The only one who's taken this out on the end of the "signed consent" limb is you, paul, as usual. The rest of us are talking about actual consent and we don't need to go out on the end of that limb to know the difference between actual consent and a lack of consent. We don't have a problem. You have a problem. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 22:48:52 GMT -5
While I agree wholeheartedly with that in general... there's a whole range of activity that does conform to consent, that many will dismiss as not actually being so. That's because it isn't consent. Just because YOU determine something looks like consent to YOU, that doesn't mean it's consent. The one who determines whether it's consent, or not, is the one who's in the position to give it, or withhold it. That I agree with. And once they do, they don't get to change their mind AFTER THE FACT. |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 29, 2014 22:49:51 GMT -5
No YOU compared "no one wants to be robbed" and "women WANT to have sex". Rape and having sex are two DRASTICALLY different things. Yes. She was. In response to mmhmm: Keep that in mind if you are ever being robbed at gunpoint. If you don't scream your head off and don't try to kick him in the balls, you secretly want to get robbed and are, therefore, giving consent to be robbed. If you do as you are told, hoping to not get shot, you are just asking for it, lady! Why do I let this stuff raise my BP? Now I have a headache. She brought in the idea of robbery (something that NO PERSON WANTS) to compare it with something that MANY people want (sex). Misunderstand if it makes you happy. GEL was talking about rape, Richard, not sex. It's a delineation you don't seem able to understand. |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 29, 2014 22:51:33 GMT -5
That's because it isn't consent. Just because YOU determine something looks like consent to YOU, that doesn't mean it's consent. The one who determines whether it's consent, or not, is the one who's in the position to give it, or withhold it. That I agree with. And once they do, they don't get to change their mind AFTER THE FACT. Who said they did? Nobody. If my daughter did as I instructed her, she would still have been RAPED, Richard. RAPED. Do you understand that? She would have been RAPED and the guy who did it would probably be dead today! She wouldn't have changed her mind after the fact. She did what she had to do to protect herself. |
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 29, 2014 22:51:55 GMT -5
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP, do ya think ya might relieve all of us of having to look at a bunch of stupid advertisement in Reply #97 just to get a gander at your oh, so impressive post (which I'd be willing to wager nobody here gives a flip about)? If there's one thing I don't do- it's lie. And I don't like being called a liar, so I had to call someone's bluff. Sorry about that. |
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Sept 29, 2014 22:51:55 GMT -5
Contrary to what you may have been told, the best offense is NOT a worsethanstupid defense. Just sayin'.... |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 29, 2014 22:52:12 GMT -5
While I agree wholeheartedly with that in general... there's a whole range of activity that does conform to consent, that many will dismiss as not actually being so. Correct, and this is the problem I think some here are having. Sex without consent is rape, but does that mean that sex without a singed contract consenting to it and particularly describing the activities to take place, is rape? Some here seem to think so, and that is a problem. no, it is actually not a problem at all. it means that all sex entails some risk to both parties, and that is absolutely true. it means that the degree of TRUST you have in your partner actually matters. it means your KNOWLEDGE of that partner matters. it means that if you are tuned into what HER mood is and she is tuned into what YOUR mood is, you are good to go. and if you are thick as a post, then you will (GASP) HAVE TO ASK!!!!! but moreover, you will have to not hold a gun to her head- not have any implied threat or coercion, and she will have to be CAPABLE OF CONSENT. and yes, that is a big responsibility. it is the kind of responsibility that consenting adults have. which is, you know, the domain of sexual relations. if that seems like too much trouble to you, i have but one suggestion: grow up. |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 29, 2014 22:53:30 GMT -5
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP, do ya think ya might relieve all of us of having to look at a bunch of stupid advertisement in Reply #97 just to get a gander at your oh, so impressive post (which I'd be willing to wager nobody here gives a flip about)? If there's one thing I don't do- it's lie. And I don't like being called a liar, so I had to call someone's bluff. Sorry about that.  I'm not going to touch that with a ten-foot pole. No damned way! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 22:53:48 GMT -5
Is it ironic or just sad that the cries against the 'concept of rape culture' only continue to prove its existence...
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 29, 2014 22:54:31 GMT -5
That's because it isn't consent. Just because YOU determine something looks like consent to YOU, that doesn't mean it's consent. The one who determines whether it's consent, or not, is the one who's in the position to give it, or withhold it. That I agree with. And once they do, they don't get to change their mind AFTER THE FACT. To add to this- mmhmm- you're saying the signed contract is 'out on a limb' but how else do you clear up the ambiguity some here seem to believe exists with respect to consent? I agree with your general premise that the one who determines whether it's consent, or not, is the one who's in the position to give it, or withhold it. The problem is that the same person is also in the position to later assert something happened which did not happen. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 22:56:00 GMT -5
Do you want to have sex?
Yes.
Ta-Da!
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Post by justme on Sept 29, 2014 22:56:45 GMT -5
the definition of rape is quite simple: sex without consent. if you don't get it, spend more time thinking about it before you start talking as if you were an expert. there is a whole range of activity that doesn't conform to consent. it is ALL rape. we can all spend hours on end here describing these cases, but it really is fairly simple and uncontroversial. While I agree wholeheartedly with that in general... there's a whole range of activity that does conform to consent, that many will dismiss as not actually being so. Look, I'll agree it's not entirely "fair" to men to go over and beyond ensuring consent. It sucks that we live in a world that you guys have to. It's not because of the good guys, but it's because of the bad guys. BUT there is no way you can argue against the fact that guys have the upper hand against women. They almost always have the strength, weight, and height over girls. If they don't have all three they have at least once, if not two. The guys have the upper hand. They can stave off a drunken come-on by a girl 100% better than a girl can stave off one buy a guy. Sorry, it sucks for guys, but in the grand scheme of things I'm sorry-not sorry that's a relatively light cross for you guys to bear. Ya wanna know why I think it's not a burden to you guys? Because I know several guys that have stopped shit saying you/we are too drunk to do this and stops things. And you wanna know what? The next day I like the guy who stopped shit 100%, or more, times better than the guys who didn't and kept trying to push shit after I said no. Because in my experience - most guys take no as "I'm playing hardball, just keep wearing me down til I say yes". |
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 29, 2014 22:57:39 GMT -5
Is it ironic or just sad that the cries against the 'concept of rape culture' only continue to prove its existence... much like the discussions of racism we have on this board, it makes me realize how far we really have to go. |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 29, 2014 22:57:56 GMT -5
That I agree with. And once they do, they don't get to change their mind AFTER THE FACT. To add to this- mmhmm- you're saying the signed contract is 'out on a limb' but how else do you clear up the ambiguity some here seem to believe exists with respect to consent? I agree with your general premise that the one who determines whether it's consent, or not, is the one who's in the position to give it, or withhold it. The problem is that the same person is also in the position to later assert something happened which did not happen. If the person who's in the position to give consent actually gives consent and participates willingly, no rape has been committed. If that person later asserts no consent was given, that person is in the wrong. Nobody has said otherwise. We've been talking about situations in which consent WAS NOT GIVEN. What is it about that you're having trouble grasping? |
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