Does evil really exist?

[mmhmm]

Sept 5, 2014 17:24:40 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Is there evil or not? If it is relative, then feel free to go about the business of lopping off people's heads because what does it matter?

It would matter because, relative to my beliefs it would be the wrong thing to do.  Heads were lopped off in this country and in the whole of Europe for centuries. Were those folks evil? Nope. That was just the mode of execution of the times and the social mores that existed then.

[Deleted]

With all the botched lethal injections lately, it might be argued that the head lobbing is a more humane method.

[Sunnyday]

Sept 5, 2014 13:48:30 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

One interesting I've always thought about the holocaust and Nazi Germany is how and why so many of your average Germans went along with it. I mean, they probably weren't that different from us, even in this day in age. Just your average, everyday folks trying to make their way in the world. Yet together, they committed some of the greatest atrocities in human history. Were they all evil, or was there some sort of group psychology thing going on? It's kind of scary when you think about it. As I said, Hitler was one thing, but the fact that so many people went along with it, to me, is even scarier, and I don't think we are as immune to the herd mentality as we probably think we are.

If you're truly interested, I suggest that you read Hannah Arendt. 

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Also, why do we never mention the Japanese atrocities in WWII when these discussions come up? Where they less evil because they were mostly commited against other Asian nations/people?

The atrocities that Japan committed during WWII weren't just limited to other Asian nations/people - the evidence of that is alive and remembered today. It was Japan who first initiated WWII when they dropped their first bomb on Pearl Harbor.


Ever visit the USS Arizona Memorial ? 

www.hawaiiforvisitors.com/oahu/attractions/uss-arizona-memorial.htm

[sesfw]

Ever visit the USS Arizona Memorial ?

Yes ..... and when I do I can feel the souls. 

[Tiny]

Sept 5, 2014 21:21:29 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Also, why do we never mention the Japanese atrocities in WWII when these discussions come up? Where they less evil because they were mostly commited against other Asian nations/people?

The atrocities that Japan committed during WWII weren't just limited to other Asian nations/people - the evidence of that is alive and remembered today. It was Japan who first initiated WWII when they dropped their first bomb on Pearl Harbor.


Ever visit the USS Arizona Memorial ? 

www.hawaiiforvisitors.com/oahu/attractions/uss-arizona-memorial.htm

I'm not sure an "act of war" - bombing the enemy combantants (and collateral civilians) at a naval base  counts as 'evil' as per se - it's a common part of a war.   It's something that's kinda expected in a war - I suspect there's even some verbage in the agreements between countries on how to wage war that covers that.    I'm NOT saying Pearl Harbor wasn't awful or bad.  Just maybe not in the 'evil' category for human warfare.   ADDED:  No disrespect intended towards any of the men and women who died at Pearl Harbor or to their families.  

I think the atrocities being referred to  came in Japan's use of slavery/work camps, comfort women, torture,  and civilian massacres.  

Yeah, we did round up Japanese Americans and ship them off to 'camps' here in America - but I don't think they were starved or tortured (just for the sake of torture) or denied medical treatment, etc.  while they were there.  Doesn't make that right or good... but... well, it was war.     I don't think we used Prisoners of War as expendable slave labor either.

Let's not forget we dropped two nuclear bombs on civilian cities in Japan.  I don't feel that's a proud moment of shining 'goodness' on our part.   I'm sure the Japanese (and possibly other countries) saw that as an purely evil act.  

I'm not defending either side here.   Just pointing out it was a two street....

[Opti]

Sept 5, 2014 14:47:06 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Sept 5, 2014 14:36:59 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Really? Rape , murder, beheadings, mass genocide , all just misunderstood I guess.

When people say "evil"  I think of some mysterious force making people do awful things.  I don't believe in that at all.  Mental illness and religion can make people do some pretty crazy stuff. 

Extreme anger and rage make people do crazy stuff too.

Think of all the (usually male) adults who go batshit crazy when their (female) SO leaves

them or cheats on them. Often there are several killings in the heat of anger, and later

when the rage starts to dissipate they are captured by law enforcement or take their own

lives. Sadly some mothers and children usually g t killed before hand.

[Opti]

Sept 5, 2014 17:24:40 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Is there evil or not? If it is relative, then feel free to go about the business of lopping off people's heads because what does it matter?

That is one crazy statement.

It reminds me of some bit about gay marriage becoming legal. I think it was a Sedaris

essay actually, and given what I read here sometimes people do think this way. If

gays can be married then I OMG the rules have gone out the window and I can marry

a 5 year old or my pizza. Absurd. As if reality spins out of control and all laws change if

one is implemented.

Likewise, whether evil exists or not, I think most of us can agree lopping of people's heads

is generally a bad thing and shouldn't be done.

[Shooby]

Why should we agree if it is relative?

[milee]

Because the world isn't black and white.  Very, very few interpersonal issues have answers that are as clearly defined as you appear to think they are.   

There are many shades of gray and most people are trying to do their best to interpret the shades and live within the boundaries.  Again, it makes me sad that someone with such simplistic views of how things work and such intolerance for the views of others is serving in any sort of administrative capacity, especially relating to educating children.

[Shooby]

Ok. But I think I will stick with calling out EVIL when I see it. You can go back to making excuses for it or explaining it away but I won't.

[Deleted]

 Shoob, how can 'evil' not be relative if the Bible calls for stoning to death and burning to death, etc... ?

[teen persuasion]

Sept 5, 2014 11:49:58 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

1evil
adjective \ˈē-vəl, British often & US also ˈē-(ˌ)vil\

: morally bad

: causing harm or injury to someone

: marked by bad luck or bad events

Emphasis mine.

The OP question was "Does evil exist?".  For "evil" to exist, it must be a "thing", that is, a noun.  Laterbloomer's definition labels it an adjective.  This jives with how I feel about the subject.  I do not think that "evil" as a noun (thing) exists.  I do believe that evil can be used as an adjective to describe things, but as many have said it is relative.

This reminds me of a children's picture book that I used recently for preschool story hour.  A rabbit and a mouse keep encountering events, and labelling them good/bad based on their POV.  The rabbit calls everything good, while the mouse terms everything bad, until the end where they swap roles.  Only the two words were used in the book.

ETA: I just looked up the book: "Good news, bad news" by Jeff Mack.  I guess it should be only three words used in the book.

[Nazgul Girl]

   I grew up in an atheistic home, and, although I eventually converted to Catholicism, I have respect for the diversity of everyone's beliefs, unless they try to convert, or un-convert, me.  


   I don't think that just because someone doesn't have the same belief system that I do that there's something wrong with them.   Getting up in someone's face because they don't have the same beliefs or rationale about life at I do is sophomoric, at best.   

[swamp]

Sept 5, 2014 18:09:30 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Sept 5, 2014 17:58:11 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Calling religious belief "non rational" shows how irrational your understanding truly is.

How is it rational?

An invisible guy listens when you talk to yourself & shapes your life accordingly (but works in mysterious ways, all part of the plan when bad things happen).  Sounds pretty irrational if you aren't brought up being taught that idea.

Believe or don't, but I don't think you can argue that it is the rational choice to believe.

Sounds pretty irrational even when you were brought up to believe it

[Deleted]

Sept 6, 2014 9:47:55 GMT -5 Nazgul Girl said:

   I grew up in an atheistic home, and, although I eventually converted to Catholicism, I have respect for the diversity of everyone's beliefs, unless they try to convert, or un-convert, me.  


   I don't think that just because someone doesn't have the same belief system that I do that there's something wrong with them.   Getting up in someone's face because they don't have the same beliefs or rationale about life at I do is sophomoric, at best.   

Do you feel that is happening here?

[Deleted]

Sept 6, 2014 10:43:09 GMT -5 swamp said:

Sept 5, 2014 18:09:30 GMT -5 Angel! said:

How is it rational?

An invisible guy listens when you talk to yourself & shapes your life accordingly (but works in mysterious ways, all part of the plan when bad things happen).  Sounds pretty irrational if you aren't brought up being taught that idea.

Believe or don't, but I don't think you can argue that it is the rational choice to believe.

Sounds pretty irrational even when you were brought up to believe it

I tried.  I really tried the Christian route.  I was brought up in the United Church of Christ with a family that always went to church on Sundays.  I remember Grandma telling me when I was maybe 10 that I was going to go to hell when I started refusing.  Later as an adult, I decided to give it another shot.  I went to weekly religion classes, read and read and read some more.  I learned a lot about Catholicism, and went to mass every week.  I had my son's baptized and older son and I received first communion at the Easter vigil. 

But, I have given up (for now anyhow).  I was just kidding myself and I felt weird telling my kids these things.  Older son is pretty convinced he's an atheist.  Younger son has a devout Catholic dad, so this should be interesting.  I'm respectful and like this morning when he asked me how people get to heaven, I prefaced my reply with, "Well, some people believe that...." I never mentioned that I have doubts of it's existence and he never asked. 

[Deleted]

Sept 6, 2014 9:28:34 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Sept 5, 2014 11:49:58 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Emphasis mine.

The OP question was "Does evil exist?".  For "evil" to exist, it must be a "thing", that is, a noun.  Laterbloomer's definition labels it an adjective.  This jives with how I feel about the subject.  I do not think that "evil" as a noun (thing) exists.  I do believe that evil can be used as an adjective to describe things, but as many have said it is relative.

I can agree it is an adjective but I don't think it is as subjective as others are saying. If people are killing because they really believe they are protecting the world from harm, they may be wrong but they aren't evil. I include those that believe killing my loved ones is protecting the world in that. But there are others that don't care how much they harm others if it gives them something they want. That is evil. Even if I think their actions achieve a greater good, that is coincidental.

[Nazgul Girl]

Sept 6, 2014 10:49:24 GMT -5 oped said:

Sept 6, 2014 9:47:55 GMT -5 Nazgul Girl said:

   I grew up in an atheistic home, and, although I eventually converted to Catholicism, I have respect for the diversity of everyone's beliefs, unless they try to convert, or un-convert, me.  


   I don't think that just because someone doesn't have the same belief system that I do that there's something wrong with them.   Getting up in someone's face because they don't have the same beliefs or rationale about life at I do is sophomoric, at best.   

Do you feel that is happening here?

    Only in a few specific posts, I think.   Nothing major.  

[Green Eyed Lady]

Interesting thread.  I do cringe a bit when people attribute evil to the fact someone may be "wired differently".  I'm not expert on mental disorders/illnesses by far, but if that is true, I'd like someone to explain why one person diagnosed as bi-polar is a serial killer and others are not.  Attributing evil to some sort of mental illness or wiring just doesn't explain it for me.  There are lots of people walking this earth who suffer from a lack of empathy.  They aren't all serial killers.

I recall somewhere earlier in the thread that someone told Shooby she should keep her religious beliefs out of this thread or go somewhere else to discuss them.  I don't think you an have a discussion about evil, with all kinds of different people weighing in, without having religion come into that discussion.  If you want to have such a thread, it should be titled, "Does evil exist?  And please don't answer if you believe in God."  If someone's belief in God shouldn't be allowed in a thread about evil, than neither should a person's disbelief be allowed. 

Evil is real.  It walks among us every day.  Evil isn't just the "absence of good".  It is Satan's determined and purposeful plan.  Attribute it to whatever you want, but if you want to be able to do that, you must allow the same for others.  Shooby wasn't trying to foist her beliefs on anybody - at least anymore than those who don't believe were trying to foist their beliefs on her.  This ridiculous notion of not allowing God to be mentioned anywhere but on the religious discussion threads has gone too far.  I'll start obeying that directive when those who don't believe are directed to keep their beliefs there also.

[Green Eyed Lady]

I'd love to debate that with you, Shaun, but I'm not quite ready yet to go to Proboards Hell!

[Deleted]

Green Eyed Lady is not allowed to talk about that here.

 You or anyone is allowed to throw that kind of question out there but she is not allowed to reply in any meaningful way.

I see it on multiple threads and I agree it's silly.

[Deleted]

Sept 6, 2014 19:04:44 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

I'm sure the mods will be by to smack both our hands and delete my comments as well.  They're usually pretty fair about the no religious discussions thing.

I doubt it. Look around. You can ask here but you cannot answer here.

[mmhmm]

You guys are welcome to discuss evil. However, if you're going to take it down the religious pathway, the discussion will have to be moved to Religious Discussions. The subject can be discussed without following that path, though.  - mmhmm, Administrator

[Angel!]

Sept 6, 2014 17:14:28 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Interesting thread.  I do cringe a bit when people attribute evil to the fact someone may be "wired differently".  I'm not expert on mental disorders/illnesses by far, but if that is true, I'd like someone to explain why one person diagnosed as bi-polar is a serial killer and others are not.  Attributing evil to some sort of mental illness or wiring just doesn't explain it for me.  There are lots of people walking this earth who suffer from a lack of empathy.  They aren't all serial killers.

When I say wired differently I am not talking bi-polar. I am talking sociopath. And they aren't all killers for the same reason not everyone watches football, or reads, or runs, etc. We all have different interests. Having a greater capacity to kill because you lack empathy does not mean that you have any interest in killing. Just like if you can run very fast does not mean you have an interest in racing. It just means you would be much easier for you should you choose to follow that path.

[hoops902]

Sept 5, 2014 11:55:43 GMT -5 milee said:

Evil exists.

And unfortunately, it's not just the absence of good. The absence of good results in apathy.  IMHO, true evil requires not just lack of good intent, it requires bad or harmful intent. 

I don't know that I agree.  If you're in front of me dying, and all it took to save you was for me to hand you the pill that you dropped...don't you think most would consider it evil not to do so?  Even if reality was simply that I was apathetic to whether you live or die.

Or a child puts a loaded gun into their mouth and tells you they're going to squeeze the trigger to see what happens...you don't think it's evil for me to shrug my shoulders because I'm apathetic?

I say that as someone who's generally pretty apathetic about what happens to other people.  But to me there's general apathy (I don't really care when I hear someone I didn't know died in a car crash) and a much more frowned upon apathy (I could easily stop you from doing something terrible, but I don't care if you do).

Or perhaps you're saying apathy, but that's not really what you're meaning.  I think a lot of people do tend to think of apathy as evil, or at least as "bad", even if it's simply indifference.  I think a lot of people would say it's "evil" to be indifferent about things like people dying. 

Or look at it this way...my intent is good.  I want to end world hunger.  I'm apathetic to whether people live or die, so my solution is to simply kill a bunch of people who stand in the way of ending world hunger.  I don't have to have ANY ill will or foul intent when I do it, I simply need to be apathetic about human life.  I think most of the people that the world would hold up as an example of "evil" would not meet the definition of bad or harmful intent.   The intent is often to further something they feel is good, the methods are a direct result of apathy about what others feel.

[cronewitch]

Much of what we call evil is people who think they are doing the right thing like serial killers who kill prostitutes might think they are doing something good.

A good example of evil is killing of infants for crying or dumping newborns in a dumpster when it would be easy to not do it. Hate the baby just hand it to someone and walk away. Even without laws allowing you to your newborn you could hire a sitter then just leave they would never find you. If you are babysitting and the baby is more than you can take even leaving them alone while you take a walk and call the parents is better than shaking or beating them.

[weltschmerz]

Evil, per se, does not exist. What you do have is broken people.

Broken people with power are even worse.

[weltschmerz]

Sep 5, 2014 at 2:48pm Phoenix84 said:
One interesting I've always thought about the holocaust and Nazi Germany is how and why so many of your average Germans went along with it. I mean, they probably weren't that different from us, even in this day in age. Just your average, everyday folks trying to make their way in the world. Yet together, they committed some of the greatest atrocities in human history. Were they all evil, or was there some sort of group psychology thing going on? It's kind of scary when you think about it. As I said, Hitler was one thing, but the fact that so many people went along with it, to me, is even scarier, and I don't think we are as immune to the herd mentality as we probably think we are

See if you can download Love, Hate and Propaganda.

It describes, in exquisite detail, how easy it is for psychopaths to reduce his enemies to "dirty animals" and how to brainwash an entire country to go along with it.

One of the best documentaries, ever. It's in 6 parts.

www.cbc.ca/player/Shows/Shows/Doc+Zone/Love+Hate+and+Propaganda/ID/1411655621/

[ktunes]

it depends on your definition of "evil"...if you look up the word in the dictionary it would be hard to argue that it does not exist...

personally, i do believe that evil exists...