milee
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Post by milee on Sept 5, 2014 13:41:19 GMT -5
Yes, sociopaths do have differently wired brains, but there's big difference between feeling certain things (or not feeling certain things) and actually acting on those feelings.
IMHO, a person can have the lack of feeling and empathy that appears to be hard wired in the brain of a sociopath but choose not to act on those things - so that person is not evil. A person who has been taught better or who has enough experience of interacting with others and still chooses to act with lack of feeling or empathy is evil.
A minor example of that was the discussion about the YouTube video of the dead body. As I explained to Hoops, I personally wouldn't be offended if my dead body or my DH's dead body was put on YouTube like that, because I don't have those feelings about a body. To me, it's an empty shell and the "person" is gone. But I understand from interacting with other people, that others feel very differently. So although I don't have those feelings, I understand them in others and choose to act in a way that honors their feelings. To stretch the analogy, I may have the lack of feeling of a sociopath on this issue, but I can make the choice to not act in a hurtful manner. Evil people know their actions aren't acceptable or are hurtful but still choose to take the action anyway, sometimes specifically because the action is hurtful.
So... you plan on not hurting others by ensuring your dead body isn't posted on youtube? Oh, definitely. By the time I'm dead my body will not be fit for viewing by anybody and will scare the bejeezus out of small children. I'm a firm believer in that old saying about how life is to be lived and you shouldn't die all pristine and unruffled... you should die having had a million adventures - many of which will scrape you up a bit, eaten foods you love, felt the sun on your face (which even with religious sunscreen will give you wrinkles), the wind messing up your hair and having had a few drinks. I'll be a wrinkly, scarred up old lady, but a very happy wrinkly, scarred up old lady.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 5, 2014 13:45:34 GMT -5
So... you plan on not hurting others by ensuring your dead body isn't posted on youtube? Oh, definitely. By the time I'm dead my body will not be fit for viewing by anybody and will scare the bejeezus out of small children. I'm a firm believer in that old saying about how life is to be lived and you shouldn't die all pristine and unruffled... you should die having had a million adventures - many of which will scrape you up a bit, eaten foods you love, felt the sun on your face (which even with religious sunscreen will give you wrinkles), the wind messing up your hair and having had a few drinks. I'll be a wrinkly, scarred up old lady, but a very happy wrinkly, scarred up old lady. Perhaps, I just found it amusing that you felt you could control what happened to your body are you were done with it. I think that will be up for others to decide Milee.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 5, 2014 13:48:30 GMT -5
One interesting I've always thought about the holocaust and Nazi Germany is how and why so many of your average Germans went along with it. I mean, they probably weren't that different from us, even in this day in age. Just your average, everyday folks trying to make their way in the world. Yet together, they committed some of the greatest atrocities in human history. Were they all evil, or was there some sort of group psychology thing going on? It's kind of scary when you think about it. As I said, Hitler was one thing, but the fact that so many people went along with it, to me, is even scarier, and I don't think we are as immune to the herd mentality as we probably think we are.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Sept 5, 2014 13:58:07 GMT -5
Because their country was in shambles following the first world war. Their economy was terrible, NATO was forcing them to make reparation payments for that war that they couldn't really afford. They were crippled economically, and looking for anything to get them out of it. With the economy being as shitty as it was, the low income "takers" and other undesirables naturally become targets. Look at some of the rhetoric in this country about illegal immigrants, those on welfare, etc. We're no better than the Nazi party was early on. The only difference is we don't have the young fiery charismatic leader to bring the majority together and convince them that doing something about that element will help the country.
There's not a whole lot of difference between cries in Germany of round up the jews and get rid of them, and the cries here of round up the illegals and send them home. We view the former as evil, because we've seen where it led. We view the latter as acceptable because the law is on our side. Fundamentally they're the same sentiment. The economy isn't doing so well, and we're looking for a segment of society to pin it on. Illegals drew the short straw, along with the unemployed and poor minorities to some extent.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 5, 2014 14:00:57 GMT -5
One interesting I've always thought about the holocaust and Nazi Germany is how and why so many of your average Germans went along with it. I mean, they probably weren't that different from us, even in this day in age. Just your average, everyday folks trying to make their way in the world. Yet together, they committed some of the greatest atrocities in human history. Were they all evil, or was there some sort of group psychology thing going on? It's kind of scary when you think about it. As I said, Hitler was one thing, but the fact that so many people went along with it, to me, is even scarier, and I don't think we are as immune to the herd mentality as we probably think we are. You create an enemy. You make them less than human. Then it doesn't really matter how you treat them. Many want to just the illegal kids back over the border & screw what happens to them. It isn't a far stretch to just round them up & throw them into camps. After all, they are breaking the law & don't belong. Then once you start down that path it isn't hard to continue. ETA - Dark beat me to it & said it better than me.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Sept 5, 2014 14:14:56 GMT -5
That said, I still support deporting the illegal kids that came over, and any adult illegals we find as well. We're a relatively small country, talking population here not land mass, and there's no way our economy could handle the influx of people if we totally opened our borders. That's why we have quotas, and wait times, and all the rest of the red tape it takes to come here legally. If we allow anyone to jump the line and stay here, we're telling everyone else in line that they're suckers and they should rush the border as well. I've spent basically my whole life living in the southwest. I've seen what happens to the local economy of these places when they start getting rushes of illegals coming over. It's not pretty. Schools and hospitals get overwhelmed, wages stagnate or decline, unemployment goes up, crime rates go up, it's a mess. For the people coming over it's better than what they're leaving, but for the US citizens involved it's a big hit to their standard of living.
The question on a government level is fairly profound. Is it the governments job to protect the livelihood and way of life of American citizens, or do they have a duty, as people, to help the poor and downtrodden of very unstable, very dangerous countries?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 5, 2014 14:19:33 GMT -5
Nice try but it doesn't fly. The Jews had nowhere to go and were actually citizens of the countries they lived in. Illegal invaders have neither issue.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 5, 2014 14:20:21 GMT -5
One interesting I've always thought about the holocaust and Nazi Germany is how and why so many of your average Germans went along with it. I mean, they probably weren't that different from us, even in this day in age. Just your average, everyday folks trying to make their way in the world. Yet together, they committed some of the greatest atrocities in human history. Were they all evil, or was there some sort of group psychology thing going on? It's kind of scary when you think about it. As I said, Hitler was one thing, but the fact that so many people went along with it, to me, is even scarier, and I don't think we are as immune to the herd mentality as we probably think we are. You create an enemy. You make them less than human. Then it doesn't really matter how you treat them. Many want to just the illegal kids back over the border & screw what happens to them. It isn't a far stretch to just round them up & throw them into camps. After all, they are breaking the law & don't belong. Then once you start down that path it isn't hard to continue. ETA - Dark beat me to it & said it better than me. Yes, dehumanizing language is common among situations like that. It's also common in the political arena these days. When you write off the other side as dumb, racist, irresponsible, ect, it eliminates the need to engage in conversations with them.
I think there is more to it than that though. I think many of them thought it was wrong, but no one likes to be the odd one out. It's always easier to keep your head down and not rock the boat and piss off your neighbors.
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milee
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Post by milee on Sept 5, 2014 14:22:24 GMT -5
The question on a government level is fairly profound. Is it the governments job to protect the livelihood and way of life of American citizens, or do they have a duty, as people, to help the poor and downtrodden of very unstable, very dangerous countries? Not completely sure of the answer to that tricky question. Living in Phoenix, like you I saw both sides of that coin and know how devastating the burden can be for select areas.
But I would add that for the country as a whole it's important to also consider to what extent we (meaning Americans) contributed to creating the unstable and dangerous conditions. Those countries were poor and without much opportunity, but the unstable and dangerous conditions have been created by the drug trade. And it's Americans buying the drugs and driving the demand that feeds the cartels.
So if we create, cause or contribute to the unstable and dangerous conditions, do we bear more responsibility for assisting in addressing them or at least sheltering some of the people fleeing from them? It's complicated.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 5, 2014 14:23:43 GMT -5
Nice try but it doesn't fly. The Jews had nowhere to go and were actually citizens of the countries they lived in. Illegal invaders have neither issue. I'd rather not see this thread get hijacked by a discussion about illegal immigration.
Personally, I think there are some key differences between wanting to deport illegals and rounding people up and putting them in death camps.
But, as I said, that's neither here nor there. If you want to discuss illegal immigration and the moral implications of it, MIDJD moved the thread over to P&M.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Sept 5, 2014 14:24:01 GMT -5
Go watch some Isis beheadings then decide.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 5, 2014 14:32:18 GMT -5
You create an enemy. You make them less than human. Then it doesn't really matter how you treat them. Many want to just the illegal kids back over the border & screw what happens to them. It isn't a far stretch to just round them up & throw them into camps. After all, they are breaking the law & don't belong. Then once you start down that path it isn't hard to continue. ETA - Dark beat me to it & said it better than me. Yes, dehumanizing language is common among situations like that. It's also common in the political arena these days. When you write off the other side as dumb, racist, irresponsible, ect, it eliminates the need to engage in conversations with them.
I think there is more to it than that though. I think many of them thought it was wrong, but no one likes to be the odd one out. It's always easier to keep your head down and not rock the boat and piss off your neighbors.
I'm sure there is a herd mentality as well. And then people tend to follow orders. There was that one study where they "shocked" patients & under orders to do so many were willing to give another person a lethal shock. I think a lot goes into creating a situation of that type. But, that is also why I don't think there is really evil. Just a different set of circumstances, different view of others, different way of being raised, different wiring in the brain, etc & actions that would seem evil to many make sense at the time or to that person. I think actions can be percieved as evil. I think some actions would be labeled evil by most, which can lead to labeling some people evil. But I don't believe evil really exists in the way you are asking.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 5, 2014 14:36:47 GMT -5
Go watch some Isis beheadings then decide. Two options there. They are sociopaths. Or they truly believe in a cause & believe it is worth killing others over the cause. Probably a mixture of the two amongst the group. The first have differently wired brains, which makes them act completely out of line with what society deems acceptable. The second is fighting for a cause they believe in, which makes their actions seem justified in their own eyes. IMO, neither is inherently evil.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Sept 5, 2014 14:36:59 GMT -5
Really? Rape , murder, beheadings, mass genocide , all just misunderstood I guess.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 5, 2014 14:40:30 GMT -5
Really? Rape , murder, beheadings, mass genocide , all just misunderstood I guess. I think most would agree they are evil actions. I just don't think that evil itself exists. It is all relative. From a different viewpoint we could be considered evil.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Sept 5, 2014 14:45:44 GMT -5
If there are "evil actions" then that means there is evil .
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 14:47:06 GMT -5
Really? Rape , murder, beheadings, mass genocide , all just misunderstood I guess. When people say "evil" I think of some mysterious force making people do awful things. I don't believe in that at all. Mental illness and religion can make people do some pretty crazy stuff.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 5, 2014 14:48:05 GMT -5
If there are "evil actions" then that means there is evil . The evil actions are relative. Just because you and I might find it evil, doesn't mean that everyone does. Nothing in inherently evil or immoral, IMO. Depending on who is making the judgement, the 9/11 hijackers did something evil or something heroic.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Sept 5, 2014 14:50:03 GMT -5
Um free will. Some people Choose it for whatever reason. Thrill kill , boredom , jihad, whatever. Evil is evil. We are harming people with mental illness by blaming it for evil. Let's call evil what it truly is .
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Sept 5, 2014 14:51:42 GMT -5
Go watch the US government kill people by lethal injection then decide.
The only difference between the two is that in our belief system the people receiving lethal injection deserved it because of their actions. To ISIS the people they behead also deserved it. I don't know that I'd use it as an example of evil. It's more an example of religious and ideological differences.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Sept 5, 2014 14:51:35 GMT -5
Oh bull puckey to the " evil is relative" nonsense. We knowit when we see it until our own hearts have become so hardened and numb.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 14:53:03 GMT -5
Um free will. Some people Choose it for whatever reason. Thrill kill , boredom , jihad, whatever. Evil is evil. We are harming people with mental illness by blaming it for evil. Let's call evil what it truly is . Last Fall when my husband was losing it his Mother kept going on and on about demons being in him and needing an exorcist. Whatever. He needed bipolar meds and to quit smoking shit.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Sept 5, 2014 15:27:36 GMT -5
One interesting I've always thought about the holocaust and Nazi Germany is how and why so many of your average Germans went along with it. I mean, they probably weren't that different from us, even in this day in age. Just your average, everyday folks trying to make their way in the world. Yet together, they committed some of the greatest atrocities in human history. Were they all evil, or was there some sort of group psychology thing going on? It's kind of scary when you think about it. As I said, Hitler was one thing, but the fact that so many people went along with it, to me, is even scarier, and I don't think we are as immune to the herd mentality as we probably think we are. The Milgram experiments explained this a bit, I think. Our innate obedience to authority is so hardwired, that even otherwise good people are capable of hurting or killing others, as long as the person telling them to do it is an authority figure. Look up Stanley Milgram... Pretty scary what we are all capable of, when you think about it. It also explains why so much genocide and other atrocities occur. Not everyone who commits those acts is evil, just led by a charismatic psychopath.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Sept 5, 2014 15:43:37 GMT -5
Oh bull puckey to the " evil is relative" nonsense. We knowit when we see it until our own hearts have become so hardened and numb. But what happens when you do do something 'you know in your heart is right and good' and then a bit of time passes, more information comes your way, or you just get older and more experienced and when you look back on your past "good" action you feel a bit in your heart that what you did wasn't so good? If you are again faced with the same situation but with your current knowledge/experience/etc would you repeat your previous actions - because back then you felt in your heart the action was right and good?
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 5, 2014 15:45:50 GMT -5
Oh bull puckey to the " evil is relative" nonsense. We knowit when we see it until our own hearts have become so hardened and numb. When is killing someone evil? - when your life is threatened - when your family is threatened - when your property is threated - when your country is threated - when they steal from you - when they have embarrased your family - when they have committed adultery - when they have wronged you in some way - when they hurt your feelings, insulted you - when they have insulted your religion - when they have killed someone (accidently) - when they have killed someone (intentionally) - when you religion and/or god says you should I think most agree there are times when murder is not necessarily wrong. But, sometimes murder is considered evil. I would say there is no black and white to when murder is wrong vs acceptable. I'm sure you could find people that say yes to every scenario above & people that say no to every scenario. I'm certain you could find a verse in the bibile supporting killing someone for every scenario above. Not quite as certain you would find a bible verse against killing someone for every scenario, but at least for some of them.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Sept 5, 2014 15:47:34 GMT -5
One interesting I've always thought about the holocaust and Nazi Germany is how and why so many of your average Germans went along with it. I mean, they probably weren't that different from us, even in this day in age. Just your average, everyday folks trying to make their way in the world. Yet together, they committed some of the greatest atrocities in human history. Were they all evil, or was there some sort of group psychology thing going on? It's kind of scary when you think about it. As I said, Hitler was one thing, but the fact that so many people went along with it, to me, is even scarier, and I don't think we are as immune to the herd mentality as we probably think we are. The Milgram experiments explained this a bit, I think. Our innate obedience to authority is so hardwired, that even otherwise good people are capable of hurting or killing others, as long as the person telling them to do it is an authority figure. Look up Stanley Milgram... Pretty scary what we are all capable of, when you think about it. It also explains why so much genocide and other atrocities occur. Not everyone who commits those acts is evil, just led by a charismatic psychopath. I'd ammend that "charismatic pychopath" to include maybe just a charismatic leader who maybe whips up the populace into a good bit of "mob mentality". Once you've got alot of people worked up it's pretty easy to loose control of what the crowd does... it doesn't necessarily need a psycho path leading it at that point... it just domino effects into unpleasantness.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Sept 5, 2014 16:41:19 GMT -5
Good points: www.jashow.org/wiki/index.php/The_Problem_of_Evil_-_Part_2 The theist responds that evil is not a thing or substance. Rather it is a lack or privation of a good thing that God made. Evil is a deprivation of some particular good. The essence of this position is summarized: 1. God created every substance. 2. Evil is not a substance (but a privation in a substance). 3. Therefore, God did not create evil. Evil is not a substance but a corruption of the good substances God made. Evil is like rust to a car or rot to a tree. It is a lack in good things, but it is not a thing in itself. Evil is like a wound in an arm or moth-holes in a garment. It exists only in another but not in itself. It is important to note that a privation is not the same as mere absence. Sight is absent in a stone as well as in a blind person. But the absence of sight in the stone is not a privation. Absence of something that ought to be there. Since the stone by nature ought not to see, it is not deprived of sight, as is the blind man. Evil, then is a privation of some good that ought to be there. It is not a mere negation. To say that evil is not a thing, but a lack in things, is not to claim that it is not real. Evil is a real lack in good things, as the blind person knows only so well. Evil is not a real substance, but it is a real privation in good substances. It is not an actual entity but a real corruption in an actual entity. Evil as privation comes in different kinds. There are physical privations, such as mutilations and there are moral privations, such as a sexual perversity. Privation can be in substance (what something is) or in relationships (how it relates to others). There are not only bad things but there are bad relations between things. A relationship of love is a good one; hate is an evil one. Likewise, when a creature worships its Creator, it relates well; blaspheming the Creator is an evil relationship. From this perspective, it follows that there is no such thing as something that is totally evil. If it were totally deprived of all good, it would be nothing. A totally rusty car is no car at all. And a totally moth-eaten garment is only a hanger in a closet. Evil, like a wound, can only exist in something else. A totally wounded arm means the person is maimed. In view of this, something cannot be totally private, at least not in a metaphysical sense. A totally corrupted being would not exist at all. And a totally incapacitated will could not make any moral actions. One must take care not to carry human depravity so far that one destroys the ability to sin. There cannot be a supreme evil, for although evil lessens good, it can never totally destroy it. Nothing can be complete, unmitigated evil. For if all good were entirely destroyed—and this would be required for evil to be complete—evil itself would vanish since its subject, namely good, would no longer be there. The fact that evil cannot be total in a metaphysical sense by no means implies that it cannot be total in a moral sense. A being can be totally (or, radically) depraved morally in the sense that evil has invaded every part of being. But the moral total depravity can only be extensive, not intensive. It can extend to every part of a person’s being, but it cannot destroy personal being. If it destroyed one’s person, there would no longer be a person to do evil. Total evil in this sense would destroy a person’s ability to do evil. Classical theists described things in terms of their four causes: (1) efficient; (2) final; (3) formal, and (4) material. A human being has God as the efficient cause, God’s glory and their good as final cause, a soul as formal cause and a body as the material cause. However, since evil is not a substance, it has no formal cause, and its material cause is a good substance. Efficient Cause-Free choice Final Cause-None. Evil is the lack of order. Formal Cause-None. Evil is the privation of form. Material Cause-A good substance The efficient cause of moral evil is free choice, not directly but indirectly. There is no purpose (final cause) of evil. It is lack of proper order to the good end. Evil has no formal cause of its own. Rather, it is the destruction of form in another. Its material cause is a good but not its own. It exists only in a good thing as the corruption of it.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Sept 5, 2014 16:54:45 GMT -5
It has nothing to do with God - evil has walked the planet for thousands and thousands of years.
Some people are born with their brain wired differently than the majority. Some are more predisposed to be more violent or evil than others.
They lack the emotion to show empathy or love - or feel any remorse for their actions. Jeffrey Dahmer is a prime example - as are Ted Bundy, David Berkowitz, John Wayne Gacy, Henry Lee Lucas, Charles Manson, et al.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Sept 5, 2014 16:55:58 GMT -5
Oh, OK. "Nothing to do with God" per Scottish Lassie. I guess that ends the discussion.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Sept 5, 2014 16:57:31 GMT -5
In order for there to be evil we have define it. We cannot define evil if we can't define Good. Good didn't just happen. God is GOOD. That is the standard.
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