Man kicked out of meeting for not standing during Pledge

[OldCoyote]

I'm going to throw this into the mix,  then tell me that you are not moved. 


www.wimp.com/whitneyhouston/

[mmhmm]

Sept 6, 2014 20:02:57 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

Sept 6, 2014 11:09:01 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Why, may I ask, does someone have to stand up to honor and respect something? I honor and respect a number of things and I'm able to do so sitting down. I really can't see the need to put on a show about it. MOO

I am surprised that you answered as you did..not going to or want to make a big thing about it...with out much thinking , what just came to my mind is the habit, procedure of all standing when a judge enters a court room ..no thought given , just done...I believe it's done in " respect of "...also thinking of how people in uniform salute one another if in uniform and in the right place ..{ some branches do not salute indoors..others do..naturally never on the battlefield exposed to enemy forces..}  also done as a form of respect to the office...

Just saying and surprised at your answer thats all..nothing more then that...

You're probably no more surprised at my answer than I am that some seem to feel respect can only be shown through ritual and/or pomp and circumstance. Standing has nothing to do with respect. Respect comes from the heart, not the feet.

[Deleted]

Sept 6, 2014 20:09:17 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

Sept 6, 2014 19:35:04 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

It's getting "overused" so much because as time goes on there's more and more that IS unconstitutional. Obviously it would get more use because of that.

Worthy of note: Something doesn't have to "be ruled unconstitutional by the SCOTUS" to BE unconstitutional. Them ruling something unconstitutional just invalidates it as a law.

Something is actually unconstitutional if it is in violation of the Constitution... whether SCOTUS has ruled on it... or not.

wow there pardner, lets back up a bit here..your saying something, a ruling, a law can be unconstitutional just because some one says it is..believes it is..someone who has no authority to make such a ruling...? Me for example..I don't like it I can just declare and have it binding if I just say so..it , what ever it is , is unconstitutional and thats the way it is..no questions asked..?  Wow..I never knew I had such authority or powers ..thanks...{Holy Sh*t got to think this over a bit...got some rulings to do here..whew...wow..}

No. I'm saying (very clearly) that something can be unconstitutional if it is in violation of the Constitution. That has nothing to do with any individual person's feelings about the issue.

Perfect example: The First Amendment states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...".

God is a fixture of Christianity and Judaism (individual "establishment{s} of religion"). To codify into law that "God" is a protector of the United States ("under God") is in direct violation of the first part.

To require people to say "under God" if they DON'T believe is in direct violation of the second part. Free exercise allows us to NOT believe God exists, as well as NOT believe that He is protecting us. AND allows us to NOT say that he does or is.

The fact that SCOTUS hasn't ruled that to be true doesn't change the fact that it is, indeed true.


As to individuals making rulings... that's just stupidity. Laws exist that we must deal with that are unconstitutional (Obamacare comes to mind). They continue being laws legally, that we have to deal with, until SCOTUS rules them unconstitutional (something that may or may not happen in any particular instance).[/s]

[mmhmm]

Sept 6, 2014 20:16:40 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

I'm going to throw this into the mix,  then tell me that you are not moved. 


www.wimp.com/whitneyhouston/

I don't know that anyone's said various bits of tradition don't move them, OldCoyote. Is it necessarily true, however, that one is more moved when standing than when seated? I don't find that to be true in my experience.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 6, 2014 20:45:01 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

To require people to say "under God" if they DON'T believe is in direct violation of the second part. Free exercise allows us to NOT believe God exists, as well as NOT believe that He is protecting us. AND allows us to NOT say that he does or is.

this is precisely it. i believe in God. so do you. so do over 90% of those that live in the US. but that does NOT give us the right to force others to pledge their allegiance to God if they don't.

of course, i have OTHER problems with the pledge, as well.  but again, these are just my own personal issues.  if others don't have them, sobeit.

[mmhmm]

Sept 6, 2014 20:52:11 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 6, 2014 20:45:01 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

To require people to say "under God" if they DON'T believe is in direct violation of the second part. Free exercise allows us to NOT believe God exists, as well as NOT believe that He is protecting us. AND allows us to NOT say that he does or is.

this is precisely it. i believe in God. so do you. so do over 90% of those that live in the US. but that does NOT give us the right to force others to pledge their allegiance to God if they don't.

of course, i have OTHER problems with the pledge, as well.  but again, these are just my own personal issues.  if others don't have them, sobeit.

I'm with you and Richard, dj. In fact, I would argue it would be hypocritical of me to say those words since I'm not a believer. I do have respect for the beliefs others hold. That's what's right for them, and that's a good thing. I'll not sully it with hypocritical words coming from my mouth. Sometimes, it would seem, respect is shown in ways some don't recognize.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 6, 2014 20:16:40 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

I'm going to throw this into the mix,  then tell me that you are not moved. 


www.wimp.com/whitneyhouston/

what would "being moved" serve to illustrate.  i cry my ass off when i read THIS:

www.amazon.com/Love-You-Forever-Robert-Munsch/dp/0920668372

i cry reading ONE STANZA, now.  cried when i read the f(*king AMAZON DESCRIPTION.

people are sentimental creatures.  but your sentiment or mine is a PERSONAL matter.

i guess when it comes right down to it, i don't understand why people feel the need to have a mutual cry together.

[Deleted]

Sept 6, 2014 20:52:11 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 6, 2014 20:45:01 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

To require people to say "under God" if they DON'T believe is in direct violation of the second part. Free exercise allows us to NOT believe God exists, as well as NOT believe that He is protecting us. AND allows us to NOT say that he does or is.

this is precisely it. i believe in God. so do you. so do over 90% of those that live in the US. but that does NOT give us the right to force others to pledge their allegiance to God if they don't.

of course, i have OTHER problems with the pledge, as well.  but again, these are just my own personal issues.  if others don't have them, sobeit.

I'm Agnostic... so no, actually I don't. 


ETA: I used to be Christian (and a very devout one at that)... but I have since learned that that belief was grossly misplaced.

[Tennesseer]

Sept 6, 2014 20:59:32 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 6, 2014 20:16:40 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

I'm going to throw this into the mix,  then tell me that you are not moved. 


www.wimp.com/whitneyhouston/

what would "being moved" serve to illustrate.  i cry my ass off when i read THIS:

www.amazon.com/Love-You-Forever-Robert-Munsch/dp/0920668372

i cry reading ONE STANZA, now.  cried when i read the f(*king AMAZON DESCRIPTION.

people are sentimental creatures.  but your sentiment or mine is a PERSONAL matter.

i guess when it comes right down to it, i don't understand why people feel the need to have a mutual cry together.

Wait until you get even older.  You will tear up at the darndest things. I do.  

[djAdvocate]

Sept 6, 2014 21:34:30 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Sept 6, 2014 20:52:11 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

this is precisely it. i believe in God. so do you. so do over 90% of those that live in the US. but that does NOT give us the right to force others to pledge their allegiance to God if they don't.

of course, i have OTHER problems with the pledge, as well.  but again, these are just my own personal issues.  if others don't have them, sobeit.

I'm Agnostic... so no, actually I don't. 


ETA: I used to be Christian (and a very devout one at that)... but I have since learned that that belief was grossly misplaced.

wow, Richard.  you are more complicated than i thought.  ok, my apologies for the presumption.

[Deleted]

Sept 6, 2014 22:00:10 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 6, 2014 21:34:30 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

I'm Agnostic... so no, actually I don't. 


ETA: I used to be Christian (and a very devout one at that)... but I have since learned that that belief was grossly misplaced.

wow, Richard.  you are more complicated than i thought.  ok, my apologies for the presumption.

No worries. Because of my background and previous belief I'm VERY well versed (pardon the pun) in the Bible and aspects of Christian belief... so, many people make that mistake. 

[Deleted]

Sept 6, 2014 20:16:40 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

I'm going to throw this into the mix,  then tell me that you are not moved. 


www.wimp.com/whitneyhouston/

Whitney could sing anything and I would be moved.

[deziloooooo]

Sept 6, 2014 21:39:26 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Sept 6, 2014 20:59:32 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

what would "being moved" serve to illustrate.  i cry my ass off when i read THIS:

www.amazon.com/Love-You-Forever-Robert-Munsch/dp/0920668372

i cry reading ONE STANZA, now.  cried when i read the f(*king AMAZON DESCRIPTION.

people are sentimental creatures.  but your sentiment or mine is a PERSONAL matter.

i guess when it comes right down to it, i don't understand why people feel the need to have a mutual cry together.

Wait until you get even older.  You will tear up at the darndest things. I do.  

LOL...Touche...

[sesfw]

of course, i have OTHER problems with the pledge, as well.

What DON'T you have a problem with?

[djAdvocate]

Sept 7, 2014 14:19:25 GMT -5 sesfw said:

of course, i have OTHER problems with the pledge, as well.

What DON'T you have a problem with?

i have no problem pledging my allegiance to the constitution and the rule of law.  that is fine by me.  if i can't abide by that, i shouldn't even be here.

but since that is not in the pledge, i suppose that the answer to your question is that i don't have a problem with:

"i pledge allegiance to the, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

edit: if the first part was something i could pledge to, i would probably go along with the republic part, as well.
ie, if it were the "constitution of the United States of America" rather than flag, that would probably work for me.
not thinking about it too much now.  i spent 10 years thinking about it before i made up my mind i didn't like it, tho. 
went all the way through elementary school and boy scouts before i developed a distaste for it.

[sesfw]

'and to the Republic for which it stands'

[djAdvocate]

Sept 8, 2014 10:51:34 GMT -5 sesfw said:

'and to the Republic for which it stands'

not in the absence of the rule of law and the constitution.

that is precisely my point.  why should i pledge myself to a government that is accountable to nothing?  the USSR was a Republic.  the Chinese government is a Republic.  would you pledge to them?  and what is to prevent our Republic from becoming something equally awful without the rule of law and the constitution.

so, no- if the pledge read as follows:

i pledge allegiance to the rule of law, the constitution of the United States of America, and to the Republic which flows from it, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all",

i would feel fairly comfortable with that.

[Deleted]

Sept 8, 2014 11:50:40 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 8, 2014 10:51:34 GMT -5 sesfw said:

'and to the Republic for which it stands'

not in the absence of the rule of law and the constitution.

that is precisely my point.  why should i pledge myself to a government that is accountable to nothing?  the USSR was a Republic.  the Chinese government is a Republic.  would you pledge to them?  and what is to prevent our Republic from becoming something equally awful without the rule of law and the constitution.

so, no- if the pledge read as follows:

i pledge allegiance to the rule of law, the constitution of the United States of America, and to the Republic which flows from it, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all",

i would feel fairly comfortable with that.

"I pledge allegiance to the Constitution, of the United States of America, and to the Republic which it creates, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

I believe that would sound better and fit in perfect cadence with the existing (Constitutionally appropriate) one.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 8, 2014 14:43:13 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Sept 8, 2014 11:50:40 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

not in the absence of the rule of law and the constitution.

that is precisely my point.  why should i pledge myself to a government that is accountable to nothing?  the USSR was a Republic.  the Chinese government is a Republic.  would you pledge to them?  and what is to prevent our Republic from becoming something equally awful without the rule of law and the constitution.

so, no- if the pledge read as follows:

i pledge allegiance to the rule of law, the constitution of the United States of America, and to the Republic which flows from it, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all",

i would feel fairly comfortable with that.

"I pledge allegiance to the Constitution, of the United States of America, and to the Republic which it creates, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

I believe that would sound better and fit in perfect cadence with the existing (Constitutionally appropriate) one.

if THIS is the pledge that i had recited over 2000 times, it would have survived my adolescent questioning.
instead, i ended up finding out about Bellamy, about the 1954 modification, and deciding: NAH! 

[Green Eyed Lady]

Interesting.  I was just thinking, "Well!  If the powers that be DO change the Pledge to exclude things like "under God..." or any other changes, I'd still say it just the way I want to - including what has been excluded.  When I look at it like that, it's a bit easier to understand why others don't wish to say it like it is now.  Everybody has convictions and just because they aren't the same as mine doesn't make them wrong.  Sometimes a person needs a good smack upside the head to see it.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 8, 2014 16:08:31 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Interesting.  I was just thinking, "Well!  If the powers that be DO change the Pledge to exclude things like "under God..." or any other changes, I'd still say it just the way I want to - including what has been excluded.  When I look at it like that, it's a bit easier to understand why others don't wish to say it like it is now.  Everybody has convictions and just because they aren't the same as mine doesn't make them wrong.  Sometimes a person needs a good smack upside the head to see it.

thank you, GEL.  and again, people are entitled to pledge to whatever the jezeebas they like.  but they are NOT entitled to DEMAND that i do the same.

[Deleted]

Sept 9, 2014 12:21:07 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

"I pledge allegiance to the Constitution, of the United States of America, and to the Republic which it creates, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

I like it!  No problems with that whatsoever.

Now all we gotta do is work on that "liberty and justice for all" part... so that there actually IS Liberty AND Justice for all... and it will be utopia! (not the TV show though...)

[djAdvocate]

Sept 9, 2014 18:34:31 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Sept 9, 2014 12:21:07 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

I like it!  No problems with that whatsoever.

Now all we gotta do is work on that "liberty and justice for all" part... so that there actually IS Liberty AND Justice for all... and it will be utopia! (not the TV show though...)

well, there is certainly SOME liberty and justice for all- just not ALL liberty and ALL justice for all. 

[Deleted]

Sept 9, 2014 19:50:09 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 9, 2014 18:34:31 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Now all we gotta do is work on that "liberty and justice for all" part... so that there actually IS Liberty AND Justice for all... and it will be utopia! (not the TV show though...)

well, there is certainly SOME liberty and justice for all- just not ALL liberty and ALL justice for all. 

As long as morality issues, when they only affect those involved, are illegal... there is no liberty. Liberty (to me) means the right to make personal choices... even if someone else doesn't like or approve of them.

To the OED it means: The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one’s way of life, behavior, or political views

[djAdvocate]

Sept 9, 2014 20:05:28 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Sept 9, 2014 19:50:09 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

well, there is certainly SOME liberty and justice for all- just not ALL liberty and ALL justice for all. 

As long as morality issues, when they only affect those involved, are illegal... there is no liberty. Liberty (to me) means the right to make personal choices... even if someone else doesn't like or approve of them.

To the OED it means: The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one’s way of life, behavior, or political views

i totally agree, Richard.  but this is not the most traditional view of liberty, is it?  in 1788, unless you were landed European gentry, you really didn't have much liberty at all.  so the constitution is full of nice words, but what actually happened immediately afterwards was nothing that i would want to go back to.

my winky guy is my way of expressing sarcasm, for the record.

[Deleted]

Ahhhh... for me the winky guy is a "know what I mean... wink... wink" kind of thing.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 9, 2014 21:20:15 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Ahhhh... for me the winky guy is a "know what I mean... wink... wink" kind of thing.

i know.  someone should add the "dripping with sarcasm" one to the list!