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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 4, 2014 13:38:26 GMT -5
the pledge is statist dreck. the sooner we are rid of it, the happier i will be. I'm disappointed to read this. I, as an adult, tear up saying the Pledge of Allegiance. When I think of all that this country over came and came together on and the people who've died for us and our freedoms I swell with pride and happiness to be part of this great country. When you think of the size of the United States and all the different cultures that are citizens here and how our laws try to protect us and our rights so that we can all live together in harmony (for the most part) I don't find saying the Pledge of Allegiance a burden in any way. I'm proud to say it. And I agree with AJ. You have that right to not want to say it. But I would be very sad to see it go. I find our Flag beautiful and majestic and love what all it stands for. I have no problem pledging to it.  as a kid, i always wondered why the hell i should pledge my allegiance to a flag. i always wondered why THIS nation, above all others is "under God". i always figured that nations could be divisible if the people decided they should be. so, the whole thing never made sense to me. as an adult, i researched the pledge, and it confirmed everything i suspected. from that point forward, i have loathed it. i have nothing but love and respect for Americans. but i won't pledge my allegiance to anything other than the rule of law, and let the chips fall where they may. but so long as it is a free country, and you or i can CHOOSE whether we pledge to something as arbitrary as the POL or NOT, i have no problem with your sentimentality, even if i disagree with it. |
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greeniis10
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Post by greeniis10 on Sept 4, 2014 13:40:58 GMT -5
Too bad for this guy that there weren't more commies like us at that town meeting. I'm still a little haunted by the few JW kids that were in my fifth grade homeroom. The teacher was reasonably respectful of their right not to stand, cross their chests, or recite but after a few weeks, they stopped showing up in homeroom. I think that they took refuge (from the other kids) in the principal's office and then slipped quietly into their first-period classes. I transferred out of that school soon afterward so I don't know what became of those kids. I'd be somewhat surprised to hear that any of them had managed to graduate from high school with their peers. They were catching a lot of crap, mostly from kids their own age. Interesting. I'm curious as to why this haunted you? I only ask because I was raised as a JW (left the religion the minute I turned 18 and moved out on my own, the beginning of my senior year of high school). I was taught to stand, but not put my hand on my heart or recite the pledge. Sure, in first grade I was uncomfortable with it, but after a few weeks life went on and no one ever noticed. Each new school year I had to go through the embarrassment of my mom explaining this to my new teacher, but again, it never was an issue (other than internally I completely disagreed with it, even at that age). So, just being nosy, but I am interested in your further thoughts if you care to share! |
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 4, 2014 14:09:29 GMT -5
I'm disappointed to read this. I, as an adult, tear up saying the Pledge of Allegiance. When I think of all that this country over came and came together on and the people who've died for us and our freedoms I swell with pride and happiness to be part of this great country. When you think of the size of the United States and all the different cultures that are citizens here and how our laws try to protect us and our rights so that we can all live together in harmony (for the most part) I don't find saying the Pledge of Allegiance a burden in any way. I'm proud to say it. And I agree with AJ. You have that right to not want to say it. But I would be very sad to see it go. I find our Flag beautiful and majestic and love what all it stands for. I have no problem pledging to it. as a kid, i always wondered why the hell i should pledge my allegiance to a flag. i always wondered why THIS nation, above all others is "under God". i always figured that nations could be divisible if the people decided they should be. so, the whole thing never made sense to me. as an adult, i researched the pledge, and it confirmed everything i suspected. from that point forward, i have loathed it. i have nothing but love and respect for Americans. but i won't pledge my allegiance to anything other than the rule of law, and let the chips fall where they may. but so long as it is a free country, and you or i can CHOOSE whether we pledge to something as arbitrary as the POL or NOT, i have no problem with your sentimentality, even if i disagree with it. As I said earlier , I doubt you have ever served and for most of us it is NOT sentimentality as you state but a symbol...such things are usually simple in fact but for most of us they are important...especially those who have served and especially if one has shed blood in so doing so...symbols become important for us...so we'll keep them and honor them... |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 14:18:44 GMT -5
the pledge is statist dreck. the sooner we are rid of it, the happier i will be. I'm disappointed to read this. I, as an adult, tear up saying the Pledge of Allegiance. When I think of all that this country over came and came together on and the people who've died for us and our freedoms I swell with pride and happiness to be part of this great country. When you think of the size of Russia and all the different cultures that are citizens here and how our laws try to protect us and our rights so that we can all live together in harmony (for the most part) I don't find saying the Pledge of Allegiance a burden in any way. I'm proud to say it. And I agree with AJ. You have that right to not want to say it. But I would be very sad to see it go. I find our Flag beautiful and majestic and love what all it stands for. I have no problem pledging to it.  This is how that looks to a non American. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 4, 2014 14:20:17 GMT -5
as a kid, i always wondered why the hell i should pledge my allegiance to a flag. i always wondered why THIS nation, above all others is "under God". i always figured that nations could be divisible if the people decided they should be. so, the whole thing never made sense to me. as an adult, i researched the pledge, and it confirmed everything i suspected. from that point forward, i have loathed it. i have nothing but love and respect for Americans. but i won't pledge my allegiance to anything other than the rule of law, and let the chips fall where they may. but so long as it is a free country, and you or i can CHOOSE whether we pledge to something as arbitrary as the POL or NOT, i have no problem with your sentimentality, even if i disagree with it. As I said earlier , I doubt you have ever served as i have said about 20x, no i have not served. so stop doubting. know.and for most of us it is NOT sentimentality as you state but a symble...such things are usually simple in fact but for most of us they are important...especially those who have served and especially if one has shed blood in so doing so...symbles become important for us...so we'll keep them and honor them...I would also suggest that if you have differences with these ideas you keep them to your self or utter quietly.. thanks for the suggestion, but i respectfully decline.I know many fellows , seen weekly at the VFW who would not treat you kindly if faced with your verbal disdain ... what verbal disdain? i have never uttered a single word against veterans my entire life. not me...to old and mellow now but many of my friends are not like me..and also not as incapable of such things yet...not really condoning but understanding ... my dad and half my family are vets. i have no problems with them at all. if they have them with me, they tell me so, and we work it out. that is how things work in a country that values freedom more than symbols. |
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Sept 4, 2014 14:21:47 GMT -5
I'm disappointed to read this. I, as an adult, tear up saying the Pledge of Allegiance. When I think of all that this country over came and came together on and the people who've died for us and our freedoms I swell with pride and happiness to be part of this great country. When you think of the size of the United States and all the different cultures that are citizens here and how our laws try to protect us and our rights so that we can all live together in harmony (for the most part) I don't find saying the Pledge of Allegiance a burden in any way. I'm proud to say it. And I agree with AJ. You have that right to not want to say it. But I would be very sad to see it go. I find our Flag beautiful and majestic and love what all it stands for. I have no problem pledging to it. as a kid, i always wondered why the hell i should pledge my allegiance to a flag. i always wondered why THIS nation, above all others is "under God". i always figured that nations could be divisible if the people decided they should be. so, the whole thing never made sense to me. as an adult, i researched the pledge, and it confirmed everything i suspected. from that point forward, i have loathed it. i have nothing but love and respect for Americans. but i won't pledge my allegiance to anything other than the rule of law, and let the chips fall where they may. but so long as it is a free country, and you or i can CHOOSE whether we pledge to something as arbitrary as the POL or NOT, i have no problem with your sentimentality, even if i disagree with it. I don't perceive the Pledge of Allegiance as saying we are the ONLY nation above all others under God. We are one Nation under God. Florida is one state in the U.S. Not the ONLY state in the U.S. I have no idea what your religious affiliations are nor do I want to derail this thread but those that aren't Christian may have a problem with those words where God is included. I'm not one of those people. I respect other's beliefs but they just aren't mine so I have no problem with the words being "one nation under God". I prefer it.  It's no secret that I don't think things to death nor do I dissect things to the extent some do here so maybe I'm missing your point. I have no problem with that. I really love red.  They may choose to pledge to any symbol they like. My preference is to the American Flag. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 4, 2014 14:25:55 GMT -5
I don't perceive the Pledge of Allegiance as saying we are the ONLY nation above all others under God. We are one Nation under God. Florida is one state in the U.S. Not the ONLY state in the U.S. i don't see why God would choose this nation, or any other nation, to hover over. that was my point.I have no idea what your religious affiliations are nor do I want to derail this thread but those that aren't Christian may have a problem with those words where God is included. I'm not one of those people. I respect other's beliefs but they just aren't mine so I have no problem with the being one nation under God. I prefer it. it has nothing to do with preferences. and i am Christian.It's no secret that I don't think things to death nor do I dissect things to the extent some do here so maybe I'm missing your point. my point is that God has better things to do than worry about the US, imo. he is no more "over" us than he is, say, France. |
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Sept 4, 2014 14:29:52 GMT -5
I don't perceive the Pledge of Allegiance as saying we are the ONLY nation above all others under God. We are one Nation under God. Florida is one state in the U.S. Not the ONLY state in the U.S. i don't see why God would choose this nation, or any other nation, to hover over. that was my point.I have no idea what your religious affiliations are nor do I want to derail this thread but those that aren't Christian may have a problem with those words where God is included. I'm not one of those people. I respect other's beliefs but they just aren't mine so I have no problem with the being one nation under God. I prefer it. it has nothing to do with preferences. and i am Christian.It's no secret that I don't think things to death nor do I dissect things to the extent some do here so maybe I'm missing your point. my point is that God has better things to do than worry about the US, imo. he is no more "over" us than he is, say, France. The Pledge of Allegiance doesn't say "One Nation under God except France and other countries" so I still don't get the problem. And France and other countries are welcome to add "under God" to their songs, Pledge of Allegiance, etc. I don't think the United States has that part copy writed nor patented. |
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 4, 2014 14:35:45 GMT -5
my point is that God has better things to do than worry about the US, imo. he is no more "over" us than he is, say, France. The Pledge of Allegiance doesn't say "One Nation under God except France and other countries" so I still don't get the problem. well, i am done trying to explain it, if that is ok with you.And France and other countries are welcome to add "under God" to their songs, Pledge of Allegiance, etc. I don't think the United States has that part copy writed nor patented. you know the history of that, right? the Pledge was not written with that phrase. |
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Sept 4, 2014 14:36:02 GMT -5
I have served, and I've lost friends and family members in combat. When I took my oath of enlistment I swore to uphold and defend the constitution, not the flag. I live in an amazing country that believes in personal freedom, including the freedom not to pledge allegiance to a piece of fabric. In fact we're free to burn that piece of fabric in protest. The mayor was absolutely out of line here, and should be called on it. This is America, not some communist shithole.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 4, 2014 14:40:06 GMT -5
I have served, and I've lost friends and family members in combat. When I took my oath of enlistment I swore to uphold and defend the constitution, not the flag. I live in an amazing country that believes in personal freedom, including the freedom not to pledge allegiance to a piece of fabric. In fact we're free to burn that piece of fabric in protest. The mayor was absolutely out of line here, and should be called on it. This is America, not some communist shithole. thanks, Shaun. and for the record, i have nothing against people pledging themselves to whatever the hell they like: Satan, plush toys, FSM, the flag- WHATEVER. that's cool. as long as they RESPECT my desire to not pledge to it, we are all good. |
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 4, 2014 14:50:03 GMT -5
note to all the vets:
i know you take it personally when i say that i don't like the pledge. don't. it is NOT personal. it is not directed at YOU. it is not directed at the UNITED STATES. it is directed at anyone that would suggests that i HAVE TO pledge to certain things. i don't.
this is NOT a commentary on those that do. that is their choice. i have pledged myself to my son. i am not going to ask you to do it. that is silly. and just as you would not condemn me for doing so, i am not going to condemn you. but if i say "i don't believe in the pledge", your first reaction is going to be "do you hate America?". and my response is "no, i love it. but i see no need to prove it by pledging to it's symbols". if you can't get your head around that, you are not trying hard enough. try. i made the effort long ago, even tho i am a die-hard pacifist, to UNDERSTAND that veterans do what they do out of love for this country, and don't deserve to be hated for it. so, please, stop hating on me just because i don't want to follow Bellamy to the alter of God and Country...mmkay? if you do, that's ducky. i am NOT hating on you. don't hate on me.
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Sept 4, 2014 14:54:47 GMT -5
I have served, and I've lost friends and family members in combat. When I took my oath of enlistment I swore to uphold and defend the constitution, not the flag. I live in an amazing country that believes in personal freedom, including the freedom not to pledge allegiance to a piece of fabric. In fact we're free to burn that piece of fabric in protest. The mayor was absolutely out of line here, and should be called on it. This is America, not some communist shithole.  I'm pretty sure that's what most of us have been saying all along but you said it much better.  ETA: That people have the right to do it or not. |
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 4, 2014 14:55:16 GMT -5
As a Christian, I think I could make a pretty good case that I cannot pledge allegiance to the flag for religious reasons. Now what are you conservatives gonna do? Deny me my First Amendment right to the free-exercise of my religious faith, or force me to say the pledge?
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 5, 2014 2:41:50 GMT -5
As I said earlier , I doubt you have ever served as i have said about 20x, no i have not served. so stop doubting. know.and for most of us it is NOT sentimentality as you state but a symble...such things are usually simple in fact but for most of us they are important...especially those who have served and especially if one has shed blood in so doing so...symbles become important for us...so we'll keep them and honor them...I would also suggest that if you have differences with these ideas you keep them to your self or utter quietly.. thanks for the suggestion, but i respectfully decline.I know many fellows , seen weekly at the VFW who would not treat you kindly if faced with your verbal disdain ... what verbal disdain? i have never uttered a single word against veterans my entire life. not me...to old and mellow now but many of my friends are not like me..and also not as incapable of such things yet...not really condoning but understanding ... my dad and half my family are vets. i have no problems with them at all. if they have them with me, they tell me so, and we work it out. that is how things work in a country that values freedom more than symbols. They are family and will cut you much slack..what families do..I doubt privately that they condone your actions especially if you are very open and public in your actions which I am going to guess you are..a case of "See me , how independent I am ...I trend to walk a different road and am proud of it and want all to know yadda, yadda..." As far as knowing that you have or haven't mentioned never serving many times..I don't pay attention to such..my remark was just a observation from one who has and am around many who have and am aware of their/our feelings about certain things that those who haven't, more of them will look at these so called symbols differently...Just the nature of the beast so to speak.... That you posted some remarks that I quickly deleted , within a few minutes of the posting, as being over the top, a bit much....thats your business but if I delete them then to me they were never posted...There are many things and thoughts I have that I and others too I am sure have that are realized not appropriate for this forum , gives the monitors like mmhmm a break so to speak so we don't post them..It doesn't mean the thoughts are wrong..actually many times they are more right and correct then not but to be civil and keep control of emotions better not to be said ...IMHO if nothing else.. |
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 5, 2014 3:00:35 GMT -5
I have served, and I've lost friends and family members in combat. When I took my oath of enlistment I swore to uphold and defend the constitution, not the flag. I live in an amazing country that believes in personal freedom, including the freedom not to pledge allegiance to a piece of fabric. In fact we're free to burn that piece of fabric in protest. The mayor was absolutely out of line here, and should be called on it. This is America, not some communist shithole. Shaun I respect your right to do what ever you want regarding these symbols and especially having done your service and actually served , more power to you and how you want to pay attention or not to these symbols..and thank you for your service and that is said most heartfully.. As I said , personally I don't look into these symbols that deeply...meaning the nit picking of every word say as in the pledge..seems some here do..they just make me feel good ..the pledge, the flag as it passes { I still have a urge to throw up a crisp salute even though not in uniform..actually feel I have more then paid my dues but do settle for a hand over my heart..}...In fact the following clip, { there is a quick commercial on it, hate those things but guess someone has to pay to keep them active } with Robin Williams shows one of those symbols ..one that I always felt a tingle and a warm spot whether on a post or in a more active encampment when it happened..for those who have not served some might not be familier with it , especially if one hadn't gone to a camp as a youth..but those who have served in all branches will be familier with it..please note there is no hesitation by the troops, or of Robin who was not familier with it but handled it with true class..{RIP Robin..missing you }..both the standing at attention and then the hand salute..to a symbol true..just a piece of cloth that was dyed...{ Don't try and sell that to those standing tall and erect..} thechive.com/2013/12/16/robin-williams-uso-show-gets-interrupted-and-he-handles-it-like-a-pro-video/ |
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 5, 2014 10:30:30 GMT -5
my dad and half my family are vets. i have no problems with them at all. if they have them with me, they tell me so, and we work it out. that is how things work in a country that values freedom more than symbols. They are family and will cut you much slack..what families do..I doubt privately that they condone your actions what actions? especially if you are very open and public in your actions which I am going to guess you are..a case of "See me , how independent I am ...I trend to walk a different road and am proud of it and want all to know yadda, yadda..." has nothing to do with it. yadda yadda.As far as knowing that you have or haven't mentioned never serving many times..I don't pay attention to such..my remark was just a observation from one who has and am around many who have and am aware of their/our feelings about certain things that those who haven't, more of them will look at these so called symbols differently...Just the nature of the beast so to speak.... that is because you have pledged yourself to God and Country in a way that i haven't. so yeah. duh.That you posted some remarks that I quickly deleted , within a few minutes of the posting, as being over the top, a bit much....thats your business but if I delete them then to me they were never posted...There are many things and thoughts I have that I and others too I am sure have that are realized not appropriate for this forum , gives the monitors like mmhmm a break so to speak so we don't post them..It doesn't mean the thoughts are wrong..actually many times they are more right and correct then not but to be civil and keep control of emotions better not to be said ...IMHO if nothing else.. i can take whatever you bring. but i assure you that i have nothing but respect for our men and women in uniform. if they disrespect me because of my PERSONAL choices, that is entirely their business- but it won't change my love for them or my country. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 5, 2014 10:35:57 GMT -5
I have served, and I've lost friends and family members in combat. When I took my oath of enlistment I swore to uphold and defend the constitution, not the flag. I live in an amazing country that believes in personal freedom, including the freedom not to pledge allegiance to a piece of fabric. In fact we're free to burn that piece of fabric in protest. The mayor was absolutely out of line here, and should be called on it. This is America, not some communist shithole. Shaun I respect your right to do what ever you want regarding these symbols and especially having done your service and actually served , more power to you and how you want to pay attention or not to these symbols..and thank you for your service and that is said most heartfully.. As I said , personally I don't look into these symbols that deeply...meaning the nit picking of every word say as in the pledge..seems some here do.. no matter how picky we get, we will never be a match for Red.they just make me feel good ..the pledge, the flag as it passes { I still have a urge to throw up a crisp salute even though not in uniform..actually feel I have more then paid my dues but do settle for a hand over my heart..}...In fact the following clip, { there is a quick commercial on it, hate those things but guess someone has to pay to keep them active } with Robin Williams shows one of those symbols ..one that I always felt a tingle and a warm spot whether on a post or in a more active encampment when it happened..for those who have not served some might not be familier with it , especially if one hadn't gone to a camp as a youth..but those who have served in all branches will be familier with it..please note there is no hesitation by the troops, or of Robin who was not familier with it but handled it with true class..{RIP Robin..missing you }..both the standing at attention and then the hand salute..to a symbol true..just a piece of cloth that was dyed...{ Don't try and sell that to those standing tall and erect..} thechive.com/2013/12/16/robin-williams-uso-show-gets-interrupted-and-he-handles-it-like-a-pro-video/God Bless You and God Bless Our Troops. here is a little exercise for you. earlier, you accused me of dissing the pledge "for show". is that because you do are an enthusiast of the pledge "for show"? i suspect the answer is no. i suspect it is because you are principled. why do you think it is any different for me? |
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 5, 2014 13:16:17 GMT -5
I stand and say the pledge, btw, but because I choose to. I support any person's right not to say it. There's nothing particularly "American" about the pledge of allegiance. It's kind of a creepy, almost fascist part of our culture if you think about it. American culture and compulsory nationalistic pledges are, and ought to be far apart.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 18:50:43 GMT -5
I'm happy to say the pledge, but I say it in it's Constitutionally acceptable form only. Always have. Always will.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 18:56:02 GMT -5
I never thought much about the pledge until I witnessed my communist raised husband stagger out of his first (and last) Boy Scout meeting with our young son, looking a bit nauseous as he told me that was the closest thing to communism he'd seen in this country... Total flashbacks to his mandatory recitations during 'little patriot" meetings...
I started to think about it more deliberately at that point and did some research.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 19:00:39 GMT -5
Yah, the Brownie Pledge almost turned me too |
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Sept 5, 2014 19:01:36 GMT -5
The Pledge of Allegiance doesn't say "One Nation under God except France and other countries" so I still don't get the problem. well, i am done trying to explain it, if that is ok with you.And France and other countries are welcome to add "under God" to their songs, Pledge of Allegiance, etc. I don't think the United States has that part copy writed nor patented. you know the history of that, right? the Pledge was not written with that phrase. I missed this yesterday. But that has since changed and it's the one I use when saying it. I'm pretty sure your issue isn't with anything I have said but just in case you have misunderstood my prior comment when quoting you I was not disappointed that you didn't say the pledge. I was disappointed that you wanted it gone completely. I was stating why I like it and like to say it and was trying to answer your questions because I know you are very interested in what I think because I'm incredibly brilliant and profound.  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 19:02:11 GMT -5
It was the whole ceremony, marching in, pledging the flag, reciting Boy Scout saying... Freaked him out, honestly...
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Post by Shooby on Sept 5, 2014 19:02:57 GMT -5
There is an ORDER to meetings. Part of that is the Pledge. He could have stood up silently. He could have gotten up and left the room too.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 19:05:37 GMT -5
Or he could have sat there quietly, which he was doing..
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Sept 5, 2014 19:14:31 GMT -5
Shooby, that's enough. No need to insult. People don't always agree. Let's leave it at that. - mmhmm, Administrator
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 19:16:52 GMT -5
A little refresher on the Pledge...
In its original form it read:
In 1923, the words, "the Flag of the United States of America" were added. At this time it read:
In 1954, in response to the Communist threat of the times, President Eisenhower encouraged Congress to add the words "under God," creating the 31-word pledge we say today. Bellamy's daughter objected to this alteration. Today it reads:
Unfortunately "under God" goes against the First Amendment where "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof... "
"God" (at least the intent when it was added) is pretty much Christian based. And Christianity is "an establishment of religion"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 19:21:51 GMT -5
Under god was added in large part because otherwise the pledge was almost indistinguishable from the one pledged in communist countries.
And original writer Bellamy was a socialist.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 19:29:55 GMT -5
Doesn't matter WHY it was added. It was (and is) unconstitutional.
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