Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 3, 2014 17:12:55 GMT -5
WINTER GARDEN, Fla. — The Freedom From Religion Foundation has filed a complaint against the city of Winter Garden after the mayor kicked a man out of a public meeting because he refused to stand up during the Pledge of Allegiance. WFTV published video of the incident, which happened at the August 27 city commission meeting in Winter Garden. "Waiting for everyone to rise," Mayor John Rees said. "Sorry, are you waiting for me?" the man said. "I don't have to." The Orlando Sentinel reported that "the man was identified by City Manager Mike Bollhoefer as Joseph Richardson, 51, who has repeatedly asked the city to change its invocation policy." The mayor reportedly told Richardson he was being disrespectful to the troops. "You have one of two choices, sir. You may stand up for the pledge, you don't have to say it, but please stand," Rees said. When Richardson refused, police escorted him out of the meeting. Rest of article here: Man kicked out of meeting for not standing during PledgeThoughts or opinions? Should the man have stood for the invocation or the Pledge of Allegiance or both? Does the man have a right to sit out both? Should the mayor have ordered the man escorted out of the meeting by the police if he did not voluntarily leave?
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Sept 3, 2014 17:48:22 GMT -5
Of course he has the right to stay silent and/or seated. Didn't the mayor attend school with any Jehovah's witnesses or non-citizens?
I find the wording of the pledge quite beautiful, especially before we added something in the Cold War era, but compelling anyone else to recite it, mumble certain words, or stand at at attention while it is being recited bugs the heck out of me, especially when the only way to avoid the ritual is to be disruptively late.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 3, 2014 17:49:01 GMT -5
Not being a lawyer or a expert on the constitution or on any special rulings by SCOTUS dealing with this topic, I am going to guess here...I think he has the right , legally, to sit it out...not saying it's the thing to do or morally correct ...but legally, methink he's in the right here..I am going on this idea since SCOTUS has ruled on burning the flag and this to me is similer in intent and action and there they ruled its legal to do so...
Be interesting to see how it eventually plays out ..will take some time to finish out I believe..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 17:53:06 GMT -5
This is America. You don't have to pledge allegiance to a flag. When you do... It won't be America any longer...
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 3, 2014 18:00:58 GMT -5
As I see it, the man should have the right to sit through the pledge if he wishes to do so. Anyone should.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Sept 3, 2014 18:01:52 GMT -5
I think, out of respect, he should have at least stood up during the pledge, even if he wasn't reciting it.
My first thought was, is he even an American citizen?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 18:08:17 GMT -5
So, other people should now get to decide for someone what is respectful or not? That's going to put a crimp in some lifestyles...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 18:09:28 GMT -5
I'm an American citizen. I do not believe in pledging the flag.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Sept 3, 2014 18:17:37 GMT -5
He had the right to sit it out. The City Manager had the right to escort him out if they are an at-will employer. You can be fired at will in Florida unless you have signed a contract stating otherwise. There are stipulations but I don't think this would be one. Choose your battles, people! ETA: Oops! He's not an employee of the city. oped is correct. And Tenn is too.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 18:18:27 GMT -5
I thought it was a public meeting...
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 3, 2014 18:20:37 GMT -5
He had the right to sit it out. The City Manager had the right to escort him out if they are an at-will employer. You can be fired at will in Florida unless you have signed a contract stating otherwise. There are stipulations but I don't think this would be one. Choose your battles, people! POM-the man escorted out was simply a citizen attending the town meeting. Not an employee.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Sept 3, 2014 20:27:41 GMT -5
Bunch of commies in this thread. He was lucky he wasn't beaten with the stars and stripes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 20:30:41 GMT -5
Bunch of Commies in The OP... Hail our flag or be carted off...
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Sept 3, 2014 20:31:31 GMT -5
Of course they cannot require anything like that- but even a simple example- a town meeting may be attended by people that live in that town, pay taxes, who might be resident aliens. How in the hell could you make them pledge to our flag? Stoopid. And also true- there is ample support for a religious exemption from pledging to some object.
I'd sue the second a cop laid a hand on me at the direction of some official acting outside their authority- not sure of how that argument would go but I am confident I could find a way.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Sept 3, 2014 20:46:12 GMT -5
Too bad for this guy that there weren't more commies like us at that town meeting.
I'm still a little haunted by the few JW kids that were in my fifth grade homeroom. The teacher was reasonably respectful of their right not to stand, cross their chests, or recite but after a few weeks, they stopped showing up in homeroom. I think that they took refuge (from the other kids) in the principal's office and then slipped quietly into their first-period classes.
I transferred out of that school soon afterward so I don't know what became of those kids. I'd be somewhat surprised to hear that any of them had managed to graduate from high school with their peers. They were catching a lot of crap, mostly from kids their own age.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Sept 3, 2014 20:57:21 GMT -5
That's fine, except he wasn't acting outside his authority. The Mayor has the absolute right to remove anyone from a meeting that he/she deems is disruptive to the process (at least where I live - can't speak for anywhere else). Evidently, that is what he decided. I guess a judge will decide if the action was merited or not. I don't think the Mayor could have acted more wrongly. Had the guy been ignored, nothing would have happened. It appears from the article that this wasn't the first time this guy has come to meetings to express his disapproval with prayer. Calling attention to his actions is probably just what he wanted.
I would never expect someone who didn't share my beliefs to take part in prayer. I would never demand they stand, bow their head or anything like that. That is just as disrespectful as he was deemed to be. Likewise, I don't intend to allow them to stop me from praying. And listening to them over and over and over is simply something I won't tolerate as long as I'm operating within my rights. However, this guy didn't appear to be actively trying to disrupt anything. His mere presence seemed to raise some hackles. Respecting his beliefs as long as he wasn't being overtly disrespectful to theirs would have been a better course of action.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Sept 3, 2014 21:37:35 GMT -5
That's fine, except he wasn't acting outside his authority. The Mayor has the absolute right to remove anyone from a meeting that he/she deems is disruptive to the process (at least where I live - can't speak for anywhere else). Evidently, that is what he decided. I guess a judge will decide if the action was merited or not. I don't think the Mayor could have acted more wrongly. Had the guy been ignored, nothing would have happened. It appears from the article that this wasn't the first time this guy has come to meetings to express his disapproval with prayer. Calling attention to his actions is probably just what he wanted.
I would never expect someone who didn't share my beliefs to take part in prayer. I would never demand they stand, bow their head or anything like that. That is just as disrespectful as he was deemed to be. Likewise, I don't intend to allow them to stop me from praying. And listening to them over and over and over is simply something I won't tolerate as long as I'm operating within my rights. However, this guy didn't appear to be actively trying to disrupt anything. His mere presence seemed to raise some hackles. Respecting his beliefs as long as he wasn't being overtly disrespectful to theirs would have been a better course of action. Just curious- could a Mayor remove anyone that disagreed with whatever policy is at issue on those grounds?
Democrats/Republicans would be disruptive to the process of the other, no?
Tough- as I said- I would find a way to sue over it- even though there may be some discretion. But I do not see how he could eject a citizen of another country that lives there for not swearing an oath- and of course the settled law on religious exemptions. Some religions are forbidden to swear to false Gods- like Christianity for example- and some treat swearing allegiance to worshipping craven images/false Gods as a huge sin.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 21:39:14 GMT -5
He had a right to sit, and other folks have the right to think its disrespectful.
We cannot lose that as a country, the right to disagree with each other respectfully, it is a large piece of what has made this such a great place to be a citizen and live.
The mayor was completely out of line kicking him out. Nobody in the USA should have to take a pledge. Also since the "under god" part was added in the 50's the pledge is now written IMO to exclude Atheists which is wrong.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 21:41:28 GMT -5
I've been to several "council meetings" over the years... and the Leader has always legally had the right to remove "disruptive" people... the problem for this Mayor is: "sitting quietly" is NOT disruptive.
If I was that guy, I'd sue until I owned the city for being treated like that... and if the court followed the law and Constitution... I'd win.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Sept 3, 2014 21:44:06 GMT -5
www.libertynews.com/2013/11/florida-teacher-suspended-for-making-student-say-the-pledge-of-allegiance-with-his-hand-over-his-heart/
The teacher, Ms. Anne Daigle-McDonald, placed the hand of one of her students over his heart during a class recitation of the Pledge. Hernando County School Board officials ordered McDonald to attend “diversity training.” The training was mandated because the child said he’d stand for the pledge, but not cover his heart, because, as a Jehovah’s Witness, he was forbidden from “worshiping objects.” McDonald still insists the symbolic gesture is not tantamount to worship – it’s a simply an act of respect for America and its flag.
“If you don’t want to say the pledge, you still have to put your hand on your heart and if you don’t want to do that, you should move out of the country"
According to the School Board report, administrators believe, “McDonald violated a host of state education rules, professional conduct principles and the student’s right to free speech and freedom of religion.”
Goose stepping with Jesus- film at eleven.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Sept 3, 2014 21:53:49 GMT -5
That's fine, except he wasn't acting outside his authority. The Mayor has the absolute right to remove anyone from a meeting that he/she deems is disruptive to the process (at least where I live - can't speak for anywhere else). Evidently, that is what he decided. I guess a judge will decide if the action was merited or not. I don't think the Mayor could have acted more wrongly. Had the guy been ignored, nothing would have happened. It appears from the article that this wasn't the first time this guy has come to meetings to express his disapproval with prayer. Calling attention to his actions is probably just what he wanted.
I would never expect someone who didn't share my beliefs to take part in prayer. I would never demand they stand, bow their head or anything like that. That is just as disrespectful as he was deemed to be. Likewise, I don't intend to allow them to stop me from praying. And listening to them over and over and over is simply something I won't tolerate as long as I'm operating within my rights. However, this guy didn't appear to be actively trying to disrupt anything. His mere presence seemed to raise some hackles. Respecting his beliefs as long as he wasn't being overtly disrespectful to theirs would have been a better course of action. Just curious- could a Mayor remove anyone that disagreed with whatever policy is at issue on those grounds?
Democrats/Republicans would be disruptive to the process of the other, no?
Tough- as I said- I would find a way to sue over it- even though there may be some discretion. But I do not see how he could eject a citizen of another country that lives there for not swearing an oath- and of course the settled law on religious exemptions. Some religions are forbidden to swear to false Gods- like Christianity for example- and some treat swearing allegiance to worshipping craven images/false Gods as a huge sin.
You may be right and the courts may agree with you. I think, only having read the one article and not being fully informed, that the Mayor did the wrong thing by even calling attention to the man - let alone demanding his removal. Just because he could have doesn't mean he should have. I guess we'll see if a judge agrees.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Sept 3, 2014 22:26:12 GMT -5
This just in... Man shows up at city council looking for a confrontation and gets one...news at 11:00.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 3, 2014 23:59:37 GMT -5
the pledge is statist dreck. the sooner we are rid of it, the happier i will be.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Sept 4, 2014 9:10:14 GMT -5
This just in... Man shows up at city council looking for a confrontation and gets one...news at 11:00. I listen to this I am proud to be an American, I love my country, but dislike what the government has become.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 4, 2014 11:20:52 GMT -5
As a libertarian-leaning conservative, I favor a voluntary pledge. There is something slightly creepy about a pledge of allegiance to the flag. I would prefer an oath of allegiance to the Constitution, if we're going to have those sorts of things. A flag is only as good as the nation it stands for, and the farther we get from the Constitution, the less allegiance-y I feel towards the flag.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Sept 4, 2014 12:15:15 GMT -5
the pledge is statist dreck. the sooner we are rid of it, the happier i will be.
It is my PRAYER that this great country never gets rid of the Pledge of Allegiance.
There are many things you are unhappy about in this country that gives you the right to be unhappy. I will leave the rest of my thoughts unsaid.
the Mayor did the wrong thing by even calling attention to the man
Some people look for an argument.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 4, 2014 12:28:34 GMT -5
the pledge is statist dreck. the sooner we are rid of it, the happier i will be.
It is my PRAYER that this great country never gets rid of the Pledge of Allegiance.
that's appropriate, given it's origin.
There are many things you are unhappy about in this country that gives you the right to be unhappy.
i am mostly unhappy that people equate patriotism with being uncritical of this country. for me, it is the opposite.
I will leave the rest of my thoughts unsaid. why? you have freedom of speech. use it.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 4, 2014 13:12:40 GMT -5
This just in... Man shows up at city council looking for a confrontation and gets one...news at 11:00. A years worth of a civics class all in 4.07 minutes time...wonderful....thanks for the post my friend...
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 4, 2014 13:19:33 GMT -5
When we were in grade school a few of us got the idea to say "I pledge allegiance to the homosexual", which we did for a looong time.
It certainly had nothing to do with gay rights, which probably hadn't been invented yet. We just thought we were being very clever.
Pledging allegiance to a piece of died cloth is rather silly though too. Especially repetitively, day after day after day....... For you and others who are so complaining so vorisifously about the pledge..I am guessing you have never served ...been through violent conflicts..lost friends and strangers ..been damaged themself in them..It's your right to complain and bitch ..hope you don't mind if I dismiss your whining and continue the pledge when called for and truthfully after watching Reds thoughts, have a new appreciation for it..same goes for saluting the flag too as it passes in parades..I am sure many of you have a problem with that too as a symble for respect and unity of our country...
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Sept 4, 2014 13:25:06 GMT -5
the pledge is statist dreck. the sooner we are rid of it, the happier i will be. I'm disappointed to read this. I, as an adult, tear up saying the Pledge of Allegiance. When I think of all that this country over came and came together on and the people who've died for us and our freedoms I swell with pride and happiness to be part of this great country. When you think of the size of the United States and all the different cultures that are citizens here and how our laws try to protect us and our rights so that we can all live together in harmony (for the most part) I don't find saying the Pledge of Allegiance a burden in any way. I'm proud to say it. And I agree with AJ. You have that right to not want to say it. But I would be very sad to see it go. I find our Flag beautiful and majestic and love what all it stands for. I have no problem pledging to it.
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