mollyanna58
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Post by mollyanna58 on Aug 19, 2014 13:06:09 GMT -5
Why only quote that portion of my post. What I said before that is more important - that ANYONE who owns a weapon should have to go through proper safety & training courses.
You were saying that because he's an officer he should have known better.
Well, so should every gun-owner know better - but look how many tragic deaths occur yearly due to your average citizen gun-owner over-reacting or firing first - it's probably 1000-to-1 odds (or higher) for a joe-blow citizen to accidentally shoot someone - because they didn't take proper training & safety.
But lets just keep focusing on the fact this this father happens to be an officer of the law. If he'd been a plumber or carpenter or businessman, would you even be discussing that he should be held to a higher standard? I doubt it. I agree that everyone who owns a gun should have to be trained in its use. I still think that someone who carries a gun every day as part of their job should be held to a higher standard.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 19, 2014 14:10:42 GMT -5
Like hell. If a military person gets into a bar fight while off duty and beats somebody to death using the techniques taught to them in the military they can be charged with a crime, even if the fight started as self defense. Same deal here. The guy is a trained police officer, he should know better than to shoot at unidentified targets. Should he be charged with a crime in this case? I don't know. Does the whole thing reflect poorly on him as a police officer? Damn skippy.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Aug 20, 2014 10:40:20 GMT -5
Maybe if his daughter had been upstairs in bed... where she was supposed to be... this wouldn't have happened. It's tragic, but it's totally self defense if an unknown person is in your home and you shoot them in your home. My Mom is extremely fond of saying, "If you were where you were supposed to be, doing what you were supposed to be doing, this wouldn't have happened". Her philosophy is that even if what's happening is tragically wrong and unjust if you weren't there in the first place, it wouldn't have happened. And you're never, ever, ever supposed to be anywhere but work, or bed between midnight and four in the morning.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Aug 20, 2014 10:42:51 GMT -5
It's a simple question really- is it ok to shoot at someone you cannot identify or determine is a threat or not?
Should he be charged with a crime?
This is a case of the law taking the law into their own hands Depends on the state, but generally speaking trespassers on your property are fair game. You don't have to pose a threat, you just have to have immigrated into someone's home without documentation and they can kill you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 12:35:30 GMT -5
It's a simple question really- is it ok to shoot at someone you cannot identify or determine is a threat or not?
Should he be charged with a crime?
This is a case of the law taking the law into their own hands Depends on the state, but generally speaking trespassers on your property are fair game. You don't have to pose a threat, you just have to have immigrated into someone's home without documentation and they can kill you. You caught the part that his daughter wasn't trespassing right?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 12:37:51 GMT -5
Maybe if his daughter had been upstairs in bed... where she was supposed to be... this wouldn't have happened. It's tragic, but it's totally self defense if an unknown person is in your home and you shoot them in your home. My Mom is extremely fond of saying, "If you were where you were supposed to be, doing what you were supposed to be doing, this wouldn't have happened". Her philosophy is that even if what's happening is tragically wrong and unjust if you weren't there in the first place, it wouldn't have happened. And you're never, ever, ever supposed to be anywhere but work, or bed between midnight and four in the morning. The usual punishment for sneaking out is being grounded, not shot. Just sayin. Don't gun advocates get tired of defending guys like this?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Aug 20, 2014 13:04:30 GMT -5
Depends on the state, but generally speaking trespassers on your property are fair game. You don't have to pose a threat, you just have to have immigrated into someone's home without documentation and they can kill you. You caught the part that his daughter wasn't trespassing right? All that matters is that he thought she was a trespasser. You're not required to announce yourself (give away your position) before shooting an intruder or trespasser. It's an unfortunate case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And btw, I'm not defending the man's actions, or saying I'd do the same thing. I'm simply pointing out the fact that there's nothing criminal about his actions.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Aug 20, 2014 13:05:23 GMT -5
My Mom is extremely fond of saying, "If you were where you were supposed to be, doing what you were supposed to be doing, this wouldn't have happened". Her philosophy is that even if what's happening is tragically wrong and unjust if you weren't there in the first place, it wouldn't have happened. And you're never, ever, ever supposed to be anywhere but work, or bed between midnight and four in the morning. The usual punishment for sneaking out is being grounded, not shot. Just sayin. Don't gun advocates get tired of defending guys like this? See #66.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 13:10:09 GMT -5
This isn't as cut and dried as you like to make it seem. I'm pretty sure there is some onus to establish you are in danger before shooting.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Aug 20, 2014 13:34:09 GMT -5
as for my personal driving record - the police have to prove I did something wrong! 1 secondly I DO show up to court -the asshat cop has to prove I did something wrong! it used to be cops will not show up to court and I have to show up to court 3 times by the third time the court has ME come back and the cop STILL doesn't show up my case and charge is dismissed! meaning the COP was just writing tickets! the court is redfaced - for the cop not showing up! thankfully I can still get paid from missing work on days I had to miss work just to sit in court all fucking day but that's ok cause sitting in court is very interesting seeing the other cases and how people are being railroaded and how there stupid ass lawyers botch their case! when I sit in court all day - there are sooo many people I could help - dam near all of them. and when I do go to trial I still put on a case that shows the cop is just guessing there is no prof and I win some of my trials! but all that stupid shit has pretty much stopped unless I'm pulled over by some teenage cop! I just came in on this discussion and am not really going to get into it about the daughter getting shot by her Dad for what ever reason...Thank the lord it seems she will recover and I can imagine the horror the father felt as he discovered his daughter shot and in rushing her to the hospital..as far as who was at fault, that will be taken care of and hopefully everyone moves on..my comments are for you ..it seems you have been cited many times for what ever ..whether guilty or not ..proven or not..why so many altercations with police ?? That is not normal behavior..normal people do not have that many interactions with th police in their life time..I am a senior..have lived a full life..been around the block a bit in that life ..served my country in its defense and was involved in actual back and forth with it' enemy of the day..{mentioning all that just to set record straight as to whether I have lived a interacting life..} yet besides being in a auto situation with parked cars..very slippery evening and going to fast..at 16, a few speeding tickets { not going that fast really and years and years ago..} I have never had a encounter in the line of duty with a officer of the law..I have interacted with them friendly like...gotten directions, questions answered etc but never in any encounter..most of my family and friends and they are many and many have lived full lives and neither have they had encounters yet you seem to have many..I take it your not a senior, anything but and have to say , it is NOT normal to have these encounters..not cool..if that is the word..actually , to put yourself into this situation..IMHO..it's stupid to do so..but that is just my opinion..
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ZaireinHD
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Post by ZaireinHD on Aug 20, 2014 14:03:01 GMT -5
that's easily answered.... I am a BAD Boy!
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Aug 20, 2014 14:09:11 GMT -5
It's a simple question really- is it ok to shoot at someone you cannot identify or determine is a threat or not?
Should he be charged with a crime?
This is a case of the law taking the law into their own hands Depends on the state, but generally speaking trespassers on your property are fair game. You don't have to pose a threat, you just have to have immigrated into someone's home without documentation and they can kill you. Ask that guy in Detroit that shot the young lady on his porch about that, or the guy that set the trap.
Generally speaking there is a presumption that you are in fear for your life and deadly force is permissible if they are in your house- but that is rebuttable. Exiting into a garage area through a locked door may get him into trouble.
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ZaireinHD
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Post by ZaireinHD on Aug 20, 2014 14:12:03 GMT -5
since my personal driving record appears to be of interest
when I had my red /Acura Interga / manual shift / sports car back in the dayz of my early 20's - I'd say for a good two years I would get a ticket in Jan then court in Feb then ticket in Mar then court April meaning I would get a ticket one month and the next month is the court date to go to court to fight that ticket and usually the cop doesn't show and the ticket is removed from my driving record. cops are just out to make townships some money - hence quota times at the end of the month - then these courts railroad people not knowing this and just pay the fines
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Aug 20, 2014 14:16:08 GMT -5
Like to clarify on thing as well- you cannot shoot someone just for trespassing- there has to be more to it than that- hence the presumption that happens when someone breaks into your home. Other than that you have to show it was self-defense- which requires a reasonable fear, threat, etc. I assume PBP meant that when qualifying his statement.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Aug 20, 2014 14:17:05 GMT -5
No, you're a supposedly grown man. For the number of times you've been stopped (breaking the law), been fined/ticketed, or had to go to court, you'd think you would know better by now. But keep on playing the victim, blaming those big-bad-cops for all YOUR mistakes - and then saying you're being picked-on or persecuted. It's never your fault, right?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 20:40:15 GMT -5
This isn't as cut and dried as you like to make it seem. I'm pretty sure there is some onus to establish you are in danger before shooting. Actually it is that cut and dried (from a "was it a legal shoot?" point of view). Man has an alarm system. Alarm system is triggered. As far as the man knows, everyone is upstairs in bed. No one should be in the garage. There is a shadowy figure moving in the garage. In this day and age, bad people often carry (and use) weapons. This is the 21st Century, where break-ins occur and people get killed... not the 18th Century when you could leave your doors unlocked. I think that pretty well covers "the onus to establish danger".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 20:45:07 GMT -5
This isn't as cut and dried as you like to make it seem. I'm pretty sure there is some onus to establish you are in danger before shooting. Actually it is that cut and dried (from a "was it a legal shoot?" point of view). Man has an alarm system. Alarm system is triggered. As far as the man knows, everyone is upstairs in bed. No one should be in the garage. There is a shadowy figure moving in the garage. In this day and age, bad people often carry (and use) weapons. This is the 21st Century, where break-ins occur and people get killed... not the 18th Century when you could leave your doors unlocked. I think that pretty well covers "the onus to establish danger". The man can reasonably be expected to know that there is the potential that it is his teenage daughter roaming around when she shouldn't be. There are arguments for both sides and as much as you would like to think your word is the final say, it isn't. Shooting at a shadow is not responsible gun usage.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 20:56:16 GMT -5
Actually it is that cut and dried (from a "was it a legal shoot?" point of view). Man has an alarm system. Alarm system is triggered. As far as the man knows, everyone is upstairs in bed. No one should be in the garage. There is a shadowy figure moving in the garage. In this day and age, bad people often carry (and use) weapons. This is the 21st Century, where break-ins occur and people get killed... not the 18th Century when you could leave your doors unlocked. I think that pretty well covers "the onus to establish danger". The man can reasonably be expected to know that there is the potential that it is his teenage daughter roaming around when she shouldn't be. There are arguments for both sides and as much as you would like to think your word is the final say, it isn't. Shooting at a shadow is not responsible gun usage. I never said it was "responsible"... did I? I don't think I did. Maybe you could find where I said that. I only remember saying it was LEGAL. L. E. G. A. L. Legal. (as in: he won't be legally punished because no laws were broken).
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ZaireinHD
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Post by ZaireinHD on Aug 20, 2014 21:14:19 GMT -5
Like to clarify on thing as well- you cannot shoot someone just for trespassing- there has to be more to it than that- hence the presumption that happens when someone breaks into your home. Other than that you have to show it was self-defense- which requires a reasonable fear, threat, etc. I assume PBP meant that when qualifying his statement. I was thinking the same and to add I thought the level of protection had to be within reason as well. meaning if criminal grabs a pillow and throws it at you when trying to run away and gets shot! that's excessive. or if homeowner is a trained martial arts expert and the criminal is not and gets killed from some quick punches to specific places on the body - that's excessive.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Aug 20, 2014 21:15:11 GMT -5
Why should ANY father ( or parent) reasonably expect to assume their 16 yr old daughter is roaming around outside or in the garage at 3:30 in the morning and when she shouldn't be, and not in bed where she's supposed to be? He (or she) should reasonably expect their 16 yr old to be home - unless previous arrangements have been made.
You're sound asleep - it's the middle of the night - your home-security alarm goes off - you see an unknown shadow moving in your garage. Your first impulse is to protect your family (including your 16 yr old daughter) who shouldn't have even been outside the house at that hour (without her parents' knowledge) in the first place.
Thankfully the young lady will recover - but placing blame on the father is wrong. He was protecting his family from potential harm. If he'd turned on the light in the garage, he would have become a target for a possible threatening intruder with a weapon, had there been one.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 20, 2014 21:28:35 GMT -5
Why should ANY father ( or parent) reasonably expect to know their 16 yr old daughter is roaming around outside or in the garage at 3:30 in the morning and when she shouldn't be, and not in bed where she's supposed to be?
You're sound asleep - it's the middle of the night - your home-security alarm goes off - you see an unknown shadow moving in your garage. Your first impulse is to protect your family (including your 16 yr old daughter) who shouldn't have even been outside the house at that hour (without her parents' knowledge) in the first place.
Thankfully the young lady will recover - but placing blame on the father is wrong. He was protecting his family from potential harm. If he'd turned on the light in the garage, he would have become a target for a possible threatening intruder with a weapon, had there been one.
. Anyone who was or has teenagers should know that they aren't always where they're supposed to be. That doesn't mean the guy broke the law, but I stand by it reflecting poorly on him as a cop. Police are supposed to be trained enough to keep their head in tense and dangerous situations. Shooting at a shadow sounds more like the actions of a panicky civilian, not a cop. Crashing his vehicle on the way to the hospital sounds more like a panicky civilian than a cop.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Aug 20, 2014 21:50:38 GMT -5
I'm not giving him a free-pass by any means, but everyone's diverting from the fact that the kid wasn't where she was supposed to be at that ungodly hour without the parents' knowledge - and if she had been where she's supposed to be, this would never have happened.
Yes, he's a trained officer, but so are many other civilians trained in firearms and safety.
Everyone keeps focusing on the fact he's a policeman - but it boils down to the fact he was a FATHER protecting his home and his loved-ones from potential harm in the middle of the night.
I have a home-security system. I don't have teenagers, but if that alarm goes off in the middle of the night, damned-straight I'm on my feet and ready. And if I did have teens living at home, I'd expect them to be inside as well - unless knowing in advance they would be away (staying over at a friend's etc).
This girl snuck out of the house without her parents' knowledge, then when sneaking back in, tripped the alarm. The father had no idea she wasn't where she was supposed to be.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Aug 20, 2014 21:58:50 GMT -5
And to add a twist had he not opened the door and went into the garage and shot, called the police- they would have pulled her out of there and not shot her. On duty cops will actually use a flashlight and investigate-they will announce themselves as police and will have to have a reason to pull the trigger- moving shadows not being a sufficient one.
Sounds like he doesn't have the temperament or control to be a police officer. Think he might be out of a job if not prosecuted.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 20, 2014 22:11:17 GMT -5
If he had announced from the hallway or bedroom that police were on the way and he was armed his daughter would have said something and the whole thing could have been avoided.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 22:15:20 GMT -5
If he had announced from the hallway or bedroom that police were on the way and he was armed his daughter would have said something and the whole thing could have been avoided. And that is the kind of stuff that makes me think what he did probably isn't legal. Do we have follow up articles? Was he charged with anything?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Aug 20, 2014 22:16:38 GMT -5
Maybe if his daughter had been upstairs in bed... where she was supposed to be... this wouldn't have happened. It's tragic, but it's totally self defense if an unknown person is in your home and you shoot them in your home. My Mom is extremely fond of saying, "If you were where you were supposed to be, doing what you were supposed to be doing, this wouldn't have happened". Her philosophy is that even if what's happening is tragically wrong and unjust if you weren't there in the first place, it wouldn't have happened. And you're never, ever, ever supposed to be anywhere but work, or bed between midnight and four in the morning. Are you my brother?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 22:18:48 GMT -5
That's from the OP article. It isn't clear cut that he did nothing wrong.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Aug 20, 2014 22:22:29 GMT -5
Responsible gun owner- alarm goes off, grab weapon, panel shows garage tripped, call police, turn on garage light (or not), announce police are on way (or not), wait and be prepared if someone attempts to break in.
If was going to play cop () then he should have acted like a cop, not like an overzealous homeowner.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 22:59:55 GMT -5
That's from the OP article. It isn't clear cut that he did nothing wrong. Standard procedure for ANY investigation. Even when they believe the officer to be innocent of wrongdoing too.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Aug 20, 2014 23:03:16 GMT -5
That's from the OP article. It isn't clear cut that he did nothing wrong. Looked at the law in VA- not on his side at all.
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