Dog Bites - Update page 5 post 139

[raeoflyte]

Aug 12, 2014 19:43:06 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Aug 12, 2014 19:29:14 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Most adults can't approach a dog appropriately. They are not able to able to teach their kids what they don't know that they are doing wrong. My dogs behavior is my responsibility. I stopped having the issue of people approaching us when I stopped making excuses like she's skittish, shy, etc. I straight up say/shout she bites and they keep their distance. Doesn't matter that none of my dogs have bitten anyone/dog yet. I'd like to keep it that way.

Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards

Even saying "he bites" didn't stop some of the stupid adults I encountered.

Can't fix stupid unfortunately. We do the best we can, but its not possible to prevent every possible incident.

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[Deleted]

Aug 12, 2014 19:52:01 GMT -5 grumpyhermit said:

It would be so much easier if all aggressive dogs "looked the part."

I know all about the "attractive nuisance", the dog that I had growing up that was a biter was a basset hound. People just love to pet and tug on those ears, unfortunately that was on of her "triggers." So yes, please believe me when I say DON'T touch her ears.

I had another basset later on, who was sweet as pie. Of course most people would start petting her before even thinking to ask if it was okay, and yes, they were usually adults. Sigh.

I only have cats now - which is so much easier. People expect them to be mean and spastic.

[msventoux]

Aug 12, 2014 19:52:01 GMT -5 grumpyhermit said:

It would be so much easier if all aggressive dogs "looked the part."

I know all about the "attractive nuisance", the dog that I had growing up that was a biter was a basset hound. People just love to pet and tug on those ears, unfortunately that was on of her "triggers." So yes, please believe me when I say DON'T touch her ears.

I had another basset later on, who was sweet as pie. Of course most people would start petting her before even thinking to ask if it was okay, and yes, they were usually adults. Sigh.

I only have cats now - which is so much easier. People expect them to be mean and spastic.

At least she moved.  The only way to get the Bassett Hound I grew up with to move was to show her a loaf of bread.  For having no legs she was surprisingly adept at countersurfing to get any bread products left out and could ransack a truckload of groceries and inhale a loaf of bread in the time it took to close the back car door and get in the front seat.

[Abby Normal]

Aug 12, 2014 18:32:04 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

I understand the hazards.  And I agree that any dog can bite.  As a dog owner, I always thought that it was possible that one of the dogs might bite me.  But I don't think it is reasonable to expect that others will have taught their children how to behave around your pet.  Especially if you think your pet has the inclination to exhibit certain behaviors toward other people.  Whether the behavior be peeing on their shoes, or biting people who exhibit certain physical characeristics.  As adults, most of us demonstrate a certain amount of respect for animals we aren't familiar with.  Kids don't recognize the hazards as readily.

The second part of my comments are directed at the idea that others are obligated to make accomodations for everyone they come in contact with.  Must I accept your choice to smoke while sitting in the seat next to me?  Must I eat vegan simply because you choose to eat a vegan diet?  Must I happily share half of my airplane seat with you because you weigh 400 pounds and did not book two adjacent seats?  Must I be prohibited from eating peanuts because you have an allergy?  Am I obligated to teach my children how to interact with your potentially dangerous dog?  Or are you obligated to take reasonable steps to minimize the risk to the public, including my children, created by your potentially dangerous pet?

I don't expect parents to teach their children, in fact I always assume they don't.  I do not let me dogs approach people- for a variety of reasons- unless the dogs have permission to approach.  The problem is when a child is excited by a dog, and runs over and the parent does nothing.  If you bring your child to a public place, then your are just as responsible for them as I am my dog.

[Abby Normal]

Aug 12, 2014 19:52:01 GMT -5 grumpyhermit said:

It would be so much easier if all aggressive dogs "looked the part."

There is actually something called the yellow dog that is picking up in dog circles.  You can tie a yellow ribbon around the leash to signify that your dog needs more space. It's been helpful at some recent shows to keep two reactive dogs far apart.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Now I'm going to have that line of music going though my head the rest of the day.  "Tie a yellow ribbon round the old oak tree" which is also the only line I know. 

[Spellbound454]

My young border collie isn't safe around small children.

Its a breed trait apparently. She has a very strong herding instinct and is compelled to nip sheep that get out of line.
.....and boisterous kids are in her mind "out of line"

She hasn't bitten anyone but gives of clear signs when she is uncomfortable in a situation. Whites of eyes showing....fidgeting and running close to the ground.

She is fine off the lead because she just stays out of the way.....and she is not aggressive to other dogs.

....but when we have visitors I'll either put her upstairs, or put a muzzle on so we don't have any accidents.

[Peace Of Mind]

Aug 12, 2014 19:52:01 GMT -5 grumpyhermit said:

It would be so much easier if all aggressive dogs "looked the part."

I know all about the "attractive nuisance", the dog that I had growing up that was a biter was a basset hound. People just love to pet and tug on those ears, unfortunately that was on of her "triggers." So yes, please believe me when I say DON'T touch her ears.

I had another basset later on, who was sweet as pie. Of course most people would start petting her before even thinking to ask if it was okay, and yes, they were usually adults. Sigh.

I only have cats now - which is so much easier. People expect them to be mean and spastic.

I say that about people. 


I've only read a little but I am blown away by the neighbors in the OP and how they've been handling this situation.  I would be furious!  And the fact they are letting this dog attack other poor dogs over and over is sickening.  They should at least muzzle the dog when around others esp. little kids and other animals if they insist on being so stupid about this.  I hope they get sued.  They seem like the type to only get a clue when it smacks them where it will hurt but the worst part is it will be the innocent that continue to suffer. I don't think the damaged dog should suffer either and that's probably what will happen soon under their care. They should humanely have the dog put down if they won't do anything else to have it retrained or rehomed. 

I've never found where it's the animal's fault in these cases.  It has always been stupid people somewhere down the line in the animals life unless the animal is rabid.  I'm not saying there aren't ever inherently bad dogs or animals - but none that I've experienced or have known.    They were either badly abused, trained to attack, sick, had babies to protect, hurt or are owned by irresponsible, stupid people. 

 

[thyme4change]

Peace Of Mind - They are getting sued.  As I said, I hope the number is big enough that they will have to get their homeowner's insurance involved, and then the insurance company says "Get rid of the dog, or we will you."  That way I get what I want ( ) and the owners have a big bad corporation to blame it on.  

[geenamercile]

Aug 12, 2014 17:49:20 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

Aug 12, 2014 16:48:12 GMT -5 milee said:

Skeeter, I don't know what the setting was that Drama was referring to, but in our dog's case, the issues arose when just walking on the sidewalk around our neighborhood.  We didn't specifically take the dog to locations where there are kids, but when you walk your dog around the neighborhood there are sometimes other people are out as well.  When we'd get close to other people, we'd step off the sidewalk to give them lots of room to get by and explain that she wasn't friendly with strangers.  That seems a reasonable approach to me.  After all that, we'd still have adults and children deliberately veer off the sidewalk to approach her. 

Not really sure what other alternatives would be other than not walk the dog at all, which seems unreasonable. 

My realy intent was just to offer a different perspective to the idea that all people should teach their kids how to behave appropriately around other people's pets, and how to recognize when a variety of different animals might be showing signs of distress.  In some respects, I'm reacting to the idea that others must accomodate me and my wishes, not me accomodate the situation I choose to create for myself.  (I dislike people bringing their dog to Home Depot on a busy Saturday morning and expecting all of the other customers to accomodate their scared pet that is being bombarded by strangers who are trying to get through tight aisle spaces, who step on and bang into a dog they aren't aware is there.  I don't think this is treating the pet very well.  It can't be a fun experience for the pet.  And the presence of a pet in that type of situation is an imposition on other custormers.  It ain't Pet Smart, it's Home Depot, for heaven sake.)

However, if a person had a pet that was anxious around small children, there are a couple of possible alternatives.  The first would be to take the dog to a dog park, if one is available.  When I've had our dogs at a variety of dog parks, I don't remember ever seeing kids around.  The second alternative might be a different time of day.  Small children are not normally out and about on sidewalks early in the morning or later at night.  So, 6 AM or 9 PM walks would reduce the likelyhood that a kid averse dog would come in contact with young children.

Your pet.  It's up to your to make the accomodation for your pet's disposition and anxieties.  Not the rest of the world. 

Sorry I disagree, as a parent it is my job to teach my children how to act in differnt situations.  That includes situations with animals.  And honestly I think the rules are pretty simple, leave wild animals alone, if it is a pet ask before getting close to it.  We also teach listen to answers to questions, so if someone says NO, we listen to NO.  We give NO a lot of respect in this house.  

If a place allows pets, public or private then by choosing to use it I choose to accept that there may be situations involving pets.   I choose to take my children a place that a situation may occur involving pets.  

But they are my children.  It is up to me to make accommodations for my children's learning and actions.  Not the rest of the world.   

[geenamercile]

Aug 12, 2014 17:49:20 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

Aug 12, 2014 16:48:12 GMT -5 milee said:

In some respects, I'm reacting to the idea that others must accomodate me and my wishes, not me accomodate the situation I choose to create for myself. 

That line really stood out to me.  So in other words you want others to accommodate the situation that you create for yourself by not educating your children about animals, by walking them at inconvenient times since if they were convenient times your family might be out, not taking them to pet friendly places where your family might be.    

[geenamercile]

Aug 12, 2014 18:32:04 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

Aug 12, 2014 17:10:41 GMT -5 Abby Normal said:

The second part of my comments are directed at the idea that others are obligated to make accomodations for everyone they come in contact with.  Must I accept your choice to smoke while sitting in the seat next to me?  If the place and the law you are at allows smoking yes because you choose to go to that place, you put yourself in that situation.  Must I eat vegan simply because you choose to eat a vegan diet?  Well if you are at my house then yes, if we are at a vegan restaurant then yes.  If you are out about at your own business than no.   Must I happily share half of my airplane seat with you because you weigh 400 pounds and did not book two adjacent seats?  I'm going to say no since you created a situation a "whole seat" for yourself and someone else is created a situation not enough room for their size that is over riding the situation you created for yourself.  Must I be prohibited from eating peanuts because you have an allergy?  If you are in an allergy free space then yes.  Am I obligated to teach my children how to interact with your potentially dangerous dog? No, but you are obligated to teach your children that if someone says NO they need to listen when it comes to their property.  If someone says yes to letting them pet their dog than they are assuming the responsibility to keep your kid safe.    Or are you obligated to take reasonable steps to minimize the risk to the public, including my children, created by your potentially dangerous pet?  On a leash, where the dog can't reach the child, moving to the side to let people pass at a safe distance from the dog are reasonable steps.  Not taking your dog out to a dog allowed area because a kid can't listen to NO don't come near my dog, and the parents are not reinforcing that no with leave the dog along is not within in the reasonable steps.  

While I agree that, from a personal safety stand point, teaching children about how to interact with strange animals is a good idea (the same way teaching kids not to handle guns they might find laying around is a good idea).  I don't think that is an expectation that pet owners have the right to impose on others.  No but teaching child to listen to NO when it comes to someone else's property is.  I'm not saying that parents need to teach their children how to approach an animal or how to, make friends with an animal but if someone says NO don't come near my X than the child should not come near.  (This would also include non-animal items too) 

Now, if a parent takes a kid to a dog show, I think it is reasonable for the parent to expect that the kid will probably come into contact with strange animals.  And I would expect the parent to have taught the kid about how to interact with the animals and not expect animal owners and trainers to manage the interaction between their child and the animals being shown.  It was the parent's choice to bring the child to the dog show and the parent should not expect to impose the obligation to teach their child about how stressed animals might react to the child on the dog owners and trainers.  By the same token, I don't think that pet owners, in public spaces, with a potentially dangerous pet, during the time that children are usually about, should impose teaching their personal version of pet etiquette on all of the parents of all of the kids who might be around.  

[Deleted]

Aug 14, 2014 7:01:28 GMT -5 geenamercile said:

Aug 12, 2014 17:49:20 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

In some respects, I'm reacting to the idea that others must accomodate me and my wishes, not me accomodate the situation I choose to create for myself. 

That line really stood out to me.  So in other words you want others to accommodate the situation that you create for yourself by not educating your children about animals, by walking them at inconvenient times since if they were convenient times your family might be out, not taking them to pet friendly places where your family might be.    

On the one hand I agree with the sentiment "your kids, your responsibility", but, they're kids.   Maybe their parents are irresponsible idiots, or maybe they're just being kids and not listening/remembering what they were taught.  Either way, as a dog owner, I do feel I'm responsible for protecting other people's children too.  If my dog bit someone, it wouldn't just be their problem.  I'd feel awful, could get sued, and my dog might end up getting put down. 

[sheilaincali]

When my cousin was 7 years old she and her dad went to visit our great uncle at his farm.  Great Uncle's farm was maybe two miles from my cousin's house. They saw Uncle Paul on a regular basis and were at his house all the time. On this particular day my Great Uncle and uncle were standing outside talking and my cousin was sitting in the pick up. She thought of something she wanted to tell them so she hopped out of the truck to walk over to them. They were maybe 15 feet from the car.

To this day no one can figure out what happened to set this dog that she had known all of her life off but it snapped and attacked her.  The Uncles pulled the dog off and her dad rushed her to the hospital. My Great Uncle was so distraught and feared that the dog would attack other kids that he immediately put it down (farm style). Unfortunately there wasn't sufficient brain matter left to test for rabies so my cousin had to go through the rabies shots.

That always stuck with me so when we had our Dalmatian and I was pregnant we told her all the time that she had to be gentle with the baby. She was an amazing big sister to DS but we always made sure they weren't alone in a room together. She lived until 14 and never bite or snapped at anyone but we always kept a close eye on her. 

My brother reminds me of Thyme's neighbor.  I was at my reunion the other night and one of my classmates lives across the street from my brother.  Since my brother and I hate each other and it's a well known fact I hear a lot of gossip about him.  Apparently his horrible lab mutts have been terrorizing their neighborhood and chasing people.  I told her flat out "call the cops next time you see them loose".  My brother has been warned by my SIL (a vet) that his dogs are untrained and dangerous.  I stopped letting DS be around them when they clothes line him with their leashes and jumped on him after they knocked him down.  My sister refuses to go to his house because her kids are deathly afraid of his dogs.  I hope that someone reports him before those dogs hurt someone but I doubt anyone will.

[thyme4change]

I think with dogs, it is a situation where everyone has to do their part.  Adults should learn the rules, parents should teach and monitor their children, and dog owners should be responsible owners with training and managing their dogs. 

[thyme4change]

Update:  I found out that another person in the neighborhood is involved.  The reason she is involved is because the same dog attacked them and pick her dog up in his mouth and shook his head like they do when they are trying to break the neck of prey.  Vet bills, blah, blah, blah.  So now 4 documented attacks.

Also, I found out that they came to the house to get the proof of shots and took both of the dogs because they had none (zero, nada) shots, nor were they registered.  They took the dogs for 10 days to do the rabies test thing, and they did not, so they were returned to the home.  

[thyme4change]

I got the name of the Lieutenant (yes, they have ranks because they are part of the police department) from animal control that has this case in jurisdiction.  I passed along the information about the previous attacks.  I acknowledged in the email that it was hearsay, but he told me that it cost him hundreds of dollars of vet bills.  I tried to leave it factual and unemotional.  I failed, but whatever.   I don't know if it means anything or not, but at least there is a paper trail - even if it is an unsubstantiated story.

[thyme4change]

A random neighbor (none who have surfaced in this story so far) posted on Facebook that two "large" police officers came and removed the dog.  And then we got a lecture about how any dog can bite and we should be kinder and more understanding.  Two other people also called animal control and said their dogs were also attacked.  So, 7 attacks.  I want so badly to respond on Facebook "Sure, any dog might bite once, but when the stupid-azz owners let it run around and attack 7 times, something must be done."  But instead I'm going to keep my trap shut.  I got what I wanted, and clearly the dog owners have rallied people behind them and they are saying that the people who worked to get the dog removed are all mean and whatever.  I think if we just keep quiet for a bit, everyone will heal and we can go back to being a friendly neighborhood.  

Or, they are going to be pissed forever and give me dirty looks every chance they get.  Whatever.  As long as their dog doesn't attack my children, I'm good.

[thyme4change]

The dog owners, who have lived in the neighborhood for almost 30 years and have been on the board (actually President of the board) and have bunches of friends here, have stated that they are "probably" going to move.


  Are they really that disconnected from what their dog did?  Or are they just pleading for attention?

[thyme4change]

The Facebook post indicated the dog was going to be put down.  This particular dog was no more than 4 years old - I think.  I remember when their daughter got the dog as a puppy.  That wasn't too long ago.

[Deleted]

Aug 20, 2014 19:15:02 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

The Facebook post indicated the dog was going to be put down.  This particular dog was no more than 4 years old - I think.  I remember when their daughter got the dog as a puppy.  That wasn't too long ago.

with that many complaints, it was inevitable.  so sad the dog has to pay the price for POS owners.

[raeoflyte]

You're a better person than I am to not reply. I am sorry the owners lost their dog. That reality would hopefully make other dog owners take any form of aggression seriously.

Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards

[thyme4change]

Aug 20, 2014 19:22:51 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

with that many complaints, it was inevitable. so sad the dog has to pay the price for POS owners.

I don't get how you can have that many incidents and not do something.  Rehome with a rescue organization, get training, keep in a dog run away from others, something.

My friend's son was bit recently by a dog.  I need to ask her what happened with that.  Her son ended up with stitches and a referral to a surgeon so I'm assuming the hospital reported to a local animal agency.

You would have thought that after the second or third time they would have at least fixed their gate, or whatever was wrong that the dog had continued access to the roam the neighborhood unattended.  

I didn't know about all the attacks, and I'm not really sure what is going on.  One lady said they had "3 court cases."  Would every complaint to animal control be considered a court case?  Or have three people sued them? I'm not sure I can figure out who those three are.  I've got two, but the other people that I know of who were attacked have stated they are not suing.  I was also told that they are pissed because these people didn't talk to them about it, just went straight to a lawyer.  I find that laughable, because I did talk to him about it and he was totally bull-headed and a complete jerk.  So, sure, they could have talked to him first, and he probably would have been just as stubborn, so they would have left and gone to a lawyer.  Same result.

I know this seems like too much drama for such a white people problem.  I just feel like there isn't anyone I can talk to about it anymore.  If I talk to people that know them, I feel like a bitchy gossip.  My husband is frustrated with the whole situation and becomes agitated whenever it comes up.  And he is never agitated - so this is very significant and I don't see the point upsetting him.  So, I just need a vent so I can come to terms with the situation and move past it.  Thanks for listening or not listening, whatever.  I guess this is why people blog.  They feel like they are being heard even if nobody reads their blog.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Would every complaint to animal control be considered a court case

I don't know what the official designation is but every attack that is reported is documented and held onto. 3 strikes your dog is removed and put down. I can't believe your neighbors got up to 7 before the dog was removed.

[thyme4change]

Aug 20, 2014 20:53:52 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

I just feel like there isn't anyone I can talk to about it anymore. If I talk to people that know them, I feel like a bitchy gossip. My husband is frustrated with the whole situation and becomes agitated whenever it comes up. And he is never agitated - so this is very significant and I don't see the point upsetting him. So, I just need a vent so I can come to terms with the situation and move past it.

It's tough when you have a great relationship with someone and then their asinine, unreasonable behavior on one topic blows up your friendship. 

This made me laugh.  I think you are talking about the frustration my husband feels over the dog owner's behavior.  But I could also read it as the frustration my husband feels about my handling of the situation.  LOL.  Let's hope it doesn't come to that!

[Wisconsin Beth]

Aug 21, 2014 7:52:52 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Would every complaint to animal control be considered a court case

I don't know what the official designation is but every attack that is reported is documented and held onto. 3 strikes your dog is removed and put down. I can't believe your neighbors got up to 7 before the dog was removed.

My guess would be that several of the victims were ok with vet/bills being paid and didn't realize at first that it was an ongoing issue and not a once off.  Once the word hit that the authorities were involved, they felt a need to report their occurrences. 

I've been bit but not very seriously (no scars, no doctors) and I know the dogs' owners were aware of that fact either by my parents or because they witnessed it.  But I do not think any reports were filed.  I do know one of the owners put the dog down as I was the 3rd bite. 

[thyme4change]

Beth - I think you are right.  I don't think anyone told animal control about the 2 attacks that I knew of that occurred outside our neighborhood.  Once I found out this dog had 2 attacks in the neighborhood, and the dog owners still didn't seem to think it was a big deal, I passed the information I had onto animal control.  If I had fended off a minor attack, with a little bite on my dog a few weeks ago, and never said anything about it, I most likely would have felt compelled to call animal control and report it.  Once happens and can be a fluke.  But once the numbers get up there - 3, 4, 5 etc. that indicates a ongoing hazard.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

The vets here automatically report any dog attacks to the county. Partially due to making sure they catch the offender to test for rabies.

Same if you go to the human doctor with a dog bite. DH got bit by our lab doing something stupid and we had to go thru the hassle of talking to animal control because it didn't matter it was our dog and DH was stupid, the law says they have to investigate.

They're pretty strict here, which is why I was so surprised it got up to 7 attacks before the dog was seized, but all counties are different.

[thyme4change]

He just texted my husband and told him he was pissed at me because I didn't talk to him, and because I ripped him a new asshole (his words) when we talked about it.  

Anyone else see a slight problem with that statement?

[zibazinski]

Just ignore if possible. My heart breaks for the dogs. I wish owners got worse consequences than their innocent animals.