The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jul 25, 2014 10:57:09 GMT -5
Doesn't society expect you to be an American?
I didn't say it was BAD to be proud of things that society reinforces. Just that saying you're proud to be "x thing that society wants you to be" isn't the same as saying you're proud to be "x thing that society hates." Another example is weight. If you say that you're proud to be fat, you are openly defying the near-universal society vote that fat is bad, fat is ugly, fat is lazy, and so forth. You're saying that you're not any of those things. As a result, you're making a pretty radical statement. Saying "I'm proud to be thin" is not nearly so radical. Society expects you to be proud of being thin. That doesn't mean there's anything WRONG with being proud of your thinness, just that it isn't hard to be pleased with an aspect of yourself when it happens to match what society idealizes. Has it ever occurred to you that people are proud of what is important to them, not the society. May be that's the problem that some people find with the whole "I am proud to be gay" statements - it's all about being radical and making a statement, and not much about anything else Lena - I'd have to disagree with you on this one. When any group is oppressed simply based on what is inherent to their own self they will feel compelled to tell their oppressors they are wrong about their assumptions, and that they are in fact proud to be who they are. Women's rights/voting went through. Black voting/right went through this period. The GLBT community is only the latest sub-sect to say they will no longer feel as if they have to apologize for who they are.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 25, 2014 10:59:28 GMT -5
Keep guessing and hopefully you'll eventually get it. Actually, it seems as though you were comparing gay people to a pile of shit, but that isn't very Christian of you, so I don't think you would do that.
The target of the comparison was the presented argument.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 25, 2014 11:01:30 GMT -5
Has it ever occurred to you that people are proud of what is important to them, not the society. May be that's the problem that some people find with the whole "I am proud to be gay" statements - it's all about being radical and making a statement, and not much about anything else Lena - I'd have to disagree with you on this one. When any group is oppressed simply based on what is inherent to their own self they will feel compelled to tell their oppressors they are wrong about their assumptions, and that they are in fact proud to be who they are. Women's rights/voting went through. Black voting/right went through this period. The GLBT community is only the latest sub-sect to say they will no longer fell as if they have to apologize for who they are. Nobody should be proud to be anything outside of their control. If you had nothing to do with it, what exactly are you proud of? ETA: Likewise, nobody should be ashamed of anything outside of their control. I think "pride" in most of these cases is really meant to be "I'm not ashamed", which is not the same thing.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 25, 2014 11:02:11 GMT -5
Actually, it seems as though you were comparing gay people to a pile of shit, but that isn't very Christian of you, so I don't think you would do that.
The target of the comparison was the presented argument. Even I, with my limited intellectual abilities, knew that.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 25, 2014 11:03:08 GMT -5
Lena - I'd have to disagree with you on this one. When any group is oppressed simply based on what is inherent to their own self they will feel compelled to tell their oppressors they are wrong about their assumptions, and that they are in fact proud to be who they are. I've heard people say things like "Why do gay people make such a BIG DEAL about their gayness? I don't want to hear about it!" before. And usually the answer is that they would rather NOT make a big deal about it, but unfortunately society is MAKING it a big deal.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Jul 25, 2014 11:04:14 GMT -5
I really try not to engage with people over Facebook, mainly because I believe that no one actually changes their opinions based on comments received there. They are just looking for a debate/fight or someone to reaffirm their beliefs. Although I do keep some people that I tend to disagree with on my newsfeed just to see differing opinions (same for reading some threads here). It's interesting to me how people arrive at the conclusions that they do and it has made me re-think my position in some matters and has confirmed my belief in others. If I filtered out all the people that I didn't agree with then I would be just like them and not challenging myself to think outside my little box. Sometimes it's a good mental exercise to think through exactly WHY something is bothering you or you don't agree with it.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 25, 2014 11:05:46 GMT -5
Nobody should be proud to be anything outside of their control. If you had nothing to do with it, what exactly are you proud of?
Exactly. Again, this goes to the point about how people are proud of things that society tells them they should be proud of, not necessarily things that require actual virtue. No one "should" be proud to be American/white/straight/able-bodied/etc. Those things are luck of the draw. Yet, because they are prized by society, they become a source of pride for a lot of people - who happen to be the "right" one.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 25, 2014 11:10:14 GMT -5
The target of the comparison was the presented argument. Even I, with my limited intellectual abilities, knew that. No, it's my fault. Swamp thought my "keep guessing" comment pertained to her interpretation of my first post rather than her supposition of why the LGBTQQIP2SAA crowd incessantly and overtly demonstrate their pride. Strike my original reply to her comment and make it as follows: You're correct, Virgil. The gay pride movement has nothing to do with discrimination. It's all because gay people want to spread their gay cooties to the straight population. If by "cooties" you mean "values, attitudes, and ideals" and by "straight population" you mean "the world at large", then you're about 75% of the way to the correct answer.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 25, 2014 11:10:23 GMT -5
I don't engage on Facebook either.. .raises my blood pressure too much. I tend to block people when they start to get too opinionated/out there. I'm all for rational discussion but that's not really what Facebook is. Here's a lot better if I actually want to debate/discuss. I really had to sit on my hands when someone posted a "study" saying that since 95% of people who had root canals developed cancer that meant root canals cause cancer. AHHHH! Correlation does not equal causation people!
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 25, 2014 11:11:07 GMT -5
The Captain - hoops pretty much expressed my sentiment. And while I think it's great to fight for your rights, i.e gay marriage, I don't see anything "proudworthy" in the announcing to the world that "I am gay". Bc then it becomes about making who you are a radical statement and not about your rights at all
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andreawick
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Post by andreawick on Jul 25, 2014 11:14:09 GMT -5
Lena - I'd have to disagree with you on this one. When any group is oppressed simply based on what is inherent to their own self they will feel compelled to tell their oppressors they are wrong about their assumptions, and that they are in fact proud to be who they are. I've heard people say things like "Why do gay people make such a BIG DEAL about their gayness? I don't want to hear about it!" before. And usually the answer is that they would rather NOT make a big deal about it, but unfortunately society is MAKING it a big deal. I think I saw society leading the parade....
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 25, 2014 11:15:00 GMT -5
Has it ever occurred to you that people are proud of what is important to them, not the society.
Actually, I do find that things people are proud of tend to be the things about them that society reinforces. Generally it's not the other way around. We're social animals. We want to be liked and accepted. It's extremely difficult to honor parts of yourself that society looks down on and/or vilifies. OK, I can somewhat agree with that. May be I am too cynical, but I think that when people are truly happy/proud with who they are, they don't need to announce it to the world and hold parades in honor of themselves. but once it becomes a "statement", to me it says that you still need approval. I am not sure if I am explaining this well enough
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 25, 2014 11:15:26 GMT -5
You all may be right - I don't know. What I DO know is that I'm proud of things I have done that not one single person knows about (or at leas tknows it was me doing it). So it can't always be that we feel proud because of society's opinions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 11:16:08 GMT -5
The Captain - hoops pretty much expressed my sentiment. And while I think it's great to fight for your rights, i.e gay marriage, I don't see anything "proudworthy" in the announcing to the world that "I am gay". Bc then it becomes about making who you are a radical statement and not about your rights at all I do see the advantage in that it lets others that might normally be ashamed and hiding know it's ok. Way too many youngsters have lived in fear of ridicule for too long.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jul 25, 2014 11:18:04 GMT -5
I just spent at least 15 seconds trying to figure out what "fat homing" was. MUST GET COFFEE NOW. CHLOE BE BACK LATER.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jul 25, 2014 11:21:35 GMT -5
I just spent at least 15 seconds trying to figure out what "fat homing" was. MUST GET COFFEE NOW. CHLOE BE BACK LATER.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 25, 2014 11:21:45 GMT -5
May be I am too cynical, but I think that when people are truly happy/proud with who they are, they don't need to announce it to the world and hold parades in honor of themselves.
To me, the parade is less about making a statement to "the world"" that you're proud of yourself and more about coming together with a group of other folks who have suffered for being what you are in the past. Being with people who know what it's like and are joining together in support of EACH OTHER.
I'm sure it's some of both. But the fact is that if society treated gay people the same way we treat straight people, that parade would have no reason to exist. Gay people wouldn't have a reason to celebrate their sexuality any more than straight people do, nor would they have a reason to come together in support of one another against a world that often hates and shames them.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Jul 25, 2014 11:23:11 GMT -5
I don't engage on Facebook either.. .raises my blood pressure too much. I tend to block people when they start to get too opinionated/out there. I'm all for rational discussion but that's not really what Facebook is. Here's a lot better if I actually want to debate/discuss. I really had to sit on my hands when someone posted a "study" saying that since 95% of people who had root canals developed cancer that meant root canals cause cancer. AHHHH! Correlation does not equal causation people! But I can sell you some Young Living oils that will cure your cancer And let's get some Jamberry nail wraps that "support" cancer research, and some It Works! wraps along with some Shakeology to go with it. I do hide all of the MLM crazies, especially the ones I am related to.
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The Captain
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Hugs are good...
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Post by The Captain on Jul 25, 2014 11:25:15 GMT -5
The Captain - hoops pretty much expressed my sentiment. And while I think it's great to fight for your rights, i.e gay marriage, I don't see anything "proudworthy" in the announcing to the world that "I am gay". Bc then it becomes about making who you are a radical statement and not about your rights at all I kinda see you point. But then.. STAND UP, BE LOUD, BE A GIRL AND BE PROUD! I remember marching in a parade in the mid seventies in my girl scout uniform chanting this. This was around the time Title IX was finally being implemented and enforced in my area (and IIRC you were not raised in the US as a child, am I right?). There was a period of time when public schools had almost all the the federal funds going exclusively to boys sports and if girls wanted a team they had to find ways to fund it them selves or do without. The grade school I went to had zero pictures of girls sports teams prior to 1976 because they simply didn't have any. We went to a private school that took a few more years to catch up and didn't have girls teams until the late 70's. Nowadays my DD would look at you like you're crazy if you told here only boys would be allowed to play schools sports. But there was a period of time when it wasn't so. So I can see the point of it.
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quince
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Post by quince on Jul 25, 2014 11:32:09 GMT -5
I think "pride" just rolls off the tongue better than "unashamedness."
I think the point of parades and awareness campaigns is not that it's superamazingawesome to be interested in someone of your own gender, but so that there is visibility and normalization of various sexual orientations. It's hard to accept something if you've only ever heard about it and never seen it. It's easier when it's familiar, and when someone you know, like, and trust happens to be LGBTQ.
It's also hard to be LGBTQ if you're isolated and don't realize that even though you're in a vanishing minority, the population is large enough that with people making an effort to be visible, you can have a substantial community. If people in the minority just keep their sexual orientation to themselves, I imagine you end up with a lot of people that everyone assumes are heterosexual, who wonder what's wrong with them, and feel alone, and very much outsiders.
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Jul 25, 2014 11:32:10 GMT -5
I just spent at least 15 seconds trying to figure out what "fat homing" was. MUST GET COFFEE NOW. CHLOE BE BACK LATER. Adopting a fat person and giving them a good home?
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 25, 2014 11:32:29 GMT -5
The Captain - hoops pretty much expressed my sentiment. And while I think it's great to fight for your rights, i.e gay marriage, I don't see anything "proudworthy" in the announcing to the world that "I am gay". Bc then it becomes about making who you are a radical statement and not about your rights at all Realizing that I was not ashamed of being who I am when society, family, friends, etc were was empowering, and yes, prideful. I may choose to display that pride to 1) show others like me that they are ok and 2) show those not like me that we really aren't that different from each other. Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jul 25, 2014 11:34:45 GMT -5
My 8yo DD may be transsexual. We have been slowing helping her figure out her personal discovery path, mostly by supporting everything she wants as she figures it out. To this date, she wears all boy clothes (including underwear) and has a boy haircut. She talks of changing her name (her name is very feminine) She absolutely wants to look like a boy. She doesn't know what LGBTQ labels are and we haven't used any labels with her. When I think of the adversity she'll encounter and how to help her prepare for it, pride is a big part of it. But pride in being trans is hollow IMO. She is who she is. When I work to give her pride, it's by providing meaningful experiences where she can excel so that she has a body of accomplishments to fall back on. Pride in "who she is" is much more than sexuality or gender, it's from her core values which manifest in her daily actions. She can take a lot of pride in being kind/athletic/responsible/good student/etc. because she is all those things. Pride in being trans is like having pride in having brown hair. It just doesn't resonate with me. That said, I'm fully aware of the assholes she's going to face and for that reason, I'm part of PFLAG and getting to know local gay pride advocates. Someone messes with my DD, they're messing with ME.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 11:37:47 GMT -5
I've got a friend from HS on FB whom I remember as being pretty much my equal academically, but she believes everything the leadership of her religion (my former religion) says and most of the time what she posts is illogical. I try to address what she says with logic, but she just doesn't get it. I disagree with her so I'm wrong. I try to step away from the keyboard unless she's being particularly obtuse.
When Nelson Mandela died, one of her friends referred to him as a "third-world creep". I asked if that was what Jesus would say about him and someone else chimed in and attacked me for acting as if I knew what Jesus would say. The original guy said something else mean and I posted (in Greek letters) "You brood of vipers". One of them attacked me for using "jibberish" (sic). I was SO tickled to reply that it was very irreverent of him to refer to Jesus' words in the original koine Greek from the New Testament as "gibberish".
Now that I'm retired, I can be a little more vocal about the issues truly important to me. When a friend reposted the YouTube video of the young man whose parents are a lesbian couple testifying in front of the Iowa legislature when they were debating gay marriage (it was reposted on his birthday), I got tears in my eyes all over again when I saw it, and reposted it to my friends. I rarely repost anything- too many silly videos of cute kitties and stupid daredevils going around- but this is an amazing speech. The link is here if you want to see it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 11:50:24 GMT -5
My 8yo DD may be transsexual. We have been slowing helping her figure out her personal discovery path, mostly by supporting everything she wants as she figures it out. To this date, she wears all boy clothes (including underwear) and has a boy haircut. She talks of changing her name (her name is very feminine) She absolutely wants to look like a boy. She doesn't know what LGBTQ labels are and we haven't used any labels with her. When I think of the adversity she'll encounter and how to help her prepare for it, pride is a big part of it. But pride in being trans is hollow IMO. She is who she is. When I work to give her pride, it's by providing meaningful experiences where she can excel so that she has a body of accomplishments to fall back on. Pride in "who she is" is much more than sexuality or gender, it's from her core values which manifest in her daily actions. She can take a lot of pride in being kind/athletic/responsible/good student/etc. because she is all those things. Pride in being trans is like having pride in having brown hair. It just doesn't resonate with me. That said, I'm fully aware of the assholes she's going to face and for that reason, I'm part of PFLAG and getting to know local gay pride advocates. Someone messes with my DD, they're messing with ME. One of my DS2's best friends in college is a transgendered female to male person. He seems like a really nice guy and comes from an amazing family. If I posted who his father is, you would know the name. I am somewhat impressed with the kids of today in their dealings with this issue. In today's high school, at least here locally, gender and sexuality seem to be out in the open and acceptable to most. About 10 years ago a great young man who I knew from the school I worked at, was being harassed by "people" for his sexual orientation and chose to jump off of the highest bridge in the area. I don't know that "pride" is the right word, but I think anything that shows the youth that sexual differences are NORMAL and BIOLOGICAL is very, very helpful. Religion is much more a danger to people's lives than homosexuals, IMHO!
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Jul 25, 2014 12:02:50 GMT -5
I don't argue with people anymore, at least not about topics where people are going to get all hot/bothered. In the end, it doesn't really matter what my opinion is...doesn't matter what their opinion is. The collective tide is going to turn one way or the other and it's best just to just accept it because that's the way society is moving.
I know you need activists to drive this stuff so some people have to be vocal, but it ain't gonna be me!
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jul 25, 2014 12:05:25 GMT -5
Take 2, the radio version:
I'm great! I'm straight! I put out snacks, if you're an eight. I'm loud. I'm proud. My lady's cornfields like to be plowed.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 25, 2014 12:11:54 GMT -5
Funny. I have not been harmed by religion OR homosexuals. I must live a sheltered, charmed, privileged life. The only person who has truly done me harm was a hetrosexual athiest male.
Maybe he was secretly religious and homosexual. Never thought of that....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 12:14:28 GMT -5
I backed off a Facebook "debate" yesterday. A colleague posted something about "Tell me how to become an illegal immigrant! I want the benefits, too."
I so wanted to say, "This is not different from someone saying, 'I wish I was handicapped so I can get the good parking spots' or whatever." She has a severely handicapped son so she knows that no one would willingly change places just to have a parking sticker, or SSDI, or any other "benefit" her son receives to attempt to help him. She is "smarter" than that (or should be).
But I kept my mouth shut even though I was going to tell her all that in a PM. If she got the point, she would be embarrassed by her stupidity and really dislike me for pointing it out." If she didn't get the point, she would be angry with me for bringing her son into an argument that had "nothing" to do with him.
MOST Facebook debates are pointless.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 25, 2014 12:17:09 GMT -5
The Captain - hoops pretty much expressed my sentiment. And while I think it's great to fight for your rights, i.e gay marriage, I don't see anything "proudworthy" in the announcing to the world that "I am gay". Bc then it becomes about making who you are a radical statement and not about your rights at all I kinda see you point. But then.. STAND UP, BE LOUD, BE A GIRL AND BE PROUD! I remember marching in a parade in the mid seventies in my girl scout uniform chanting this. This was around the time Title IX was finally being implemented and enforced in my area (and IIRC you were not raised in the US as a child, am I right?). There was a period of time when public schools had almost all the the federal funds going exclusively to boys sports and if girls wanted a team they had to find ways to fund it them selves or do without. The grade school I went to had zero pictures of girls sports teams prior to 1976 because they simply didn't have any. We went to a private school that took a few more years to catch up and didn't have girls teams until the late 70's. Nowadays my DD would look at you like you're crazy if you told here only boys would be allowed to play schools sports. But there was a period of time when it wasn't so. So I can see the point of it. I like being a girl/woman. I always have. I am happy that I am a woman. I have never felt "proud" to be one. To me the word "proud" should be used in association with some kind of deed/accomplishment. I don't know....may be it all just semantics... bc going back to Firebird's "fat" example - I can understand someone saying "I am happy being fat", but I can't understand "I am proud being fat"... Like I said - it might be just be semantics..
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