beergut
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Post by beergut on Jul 18, 2014 18:25:27 GMT -5
I will agree that roles seem to be changing, although I think that is a personal preference thing.
I hate doing yardwork, absolutely abhor it. My GF loves to garden, and enjoys yardwork.
She doesn't particularly enjoy cooking or grilling, while I excel at both. I was raised in a family where men were expected to know how to cook, because that is what Italian men do.
I also agree that being raised in a single parent household sends mixed messages. As much as my GF tries to be understanding, she has no idea what it is like being a male pre-teen, teenager, or man. Sometimes she struggled in that area.
Likewise, my common habit with teenager girls is to spoil the hell out of them, although I am also the only one who often tells them no.
It is a balancing act.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 18:25:32 GMT -5
I think the huge increase in drugs is multifold. We ask kids to do academic tasks earlier and earlier than many are developmentally ready for, valuing quiet and order in learning even in early education. We don't think kids should be a problem, they shouldn't be sad or mad or whatever, rather than deal with emotions, medication comes up earlier. Foster kids get a ton, ton of meds. As a society we are pill happy... don't change the lifestyle, take a pill and fix it.
I don't mind an even playing field. I think we have gone to far in many ways. I think its possible to raise girls up, without dismissing boys as 'always having had the resources they need'... that's just not true. I don't think we need to disadvantage boys while we advantage girls. I do see that happening.
I will be honest, i've never been to football games. But when you can't make a gun with your fingers, when you can't play 'cops and robbers' because it promotes violence... when everything is bullying (and I do think bullying is an issue, but again, we take things too far some times)... There is definitely a desire for 'quiet' play, and viewing roughhousing and activity as aggression much earlier, and in my opinion in benign situations, especially in the early ages, elementary school, etc.
I have a boy and a girl.
I think both men and women have had to navigate shifting societal roles. I don't see society rewriting as many attributes of women as 'wrong'... I see women's roles opening up... I see mens constricting as well as opening, and even where it is opening its less supported and/or less voluntary.
Its just what I've observed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 18:31:13 GMT -5
As far as to how much "we" medicate anyone - I didn't realize this decision was removed from the parents - tell me - who is this "society" that is pumping pills down kid's throats?. Are kids today honestly more "troubled" or is it that the parents don't have the time or energy to work on the situation. Not digging on anyone, but seriously - why the huge increase in #'s of kids on drugs?
I have a son and a daughter. My daughter was nowhere near as high energy as her brother. It was never suggested to me though, that any issues she might have meant I needed to get her tested for ADHD. It was "normal" for girls to talk in class when they weren't suppose to, even if they got in trouble for it. It wasn't "normal" for a little boy to have a lot of energy and fidget and he needed a diagnosis according to his teachers. Medication usually follows the diagnosis. I disagreed and came up with ways to burn up some of his energy. That improved his behavior, but didn't really stop his fidgeting.
So in my experience, it was the educators trying to go down that road without entertaining any other possibilities.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 18:33:46 GMT -5
Yes, back when I was teaching several teachers had to be reminded that it was not their place to directly recommend medication to a parent...
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jul 18, 2014 18:35:48 GMT -5
I disagree with some of this. Aggressivness has never been more encouraged in boys, sports - especially football, has never been more popular then it is today. Look at HS football and tell me we don't encourage boys to be violent. As far as to how much "we" medicate anyone - I didn't realize this decision was removed from the parents - tell me - who is this "society" that is pumping pills down kid's throats?. Are kids today honestly more "troubled" or is it that the parents don't have the time or energy to work on the situation. Not digging on anyone, but seriously - why the huge increase in #'s of kids on drugs? For decades if not centuries boys/men got the lions' share of resources, opportunities, and teacher's attention. Now that the scales are almost even suddenly they can't function on an even playing field? How exactly is that a disservice compared to the societal shifts women have been asked to navigate? I would suggest women have been asked to navigate an even greater shift in society. But our viewpoints are likely very different, I have a daughter, I believe you have a son (don't know if you have a girl/girls). We both likely are more empathetic toward the changes our child will have to navigate. Depends what your definition of violent is. I know two boys that play football in HS. Believe it or not, most of their time in sports is spent doing strength training. DS did tackle last year..They don't teach the kids to pound the sh*t out of each other. Even at the 4th grade level, in a 2 hour practice, DS practiced plays for about 15 minutes, and maybe there was actual contact for 5 minutes. The rest of the time was spent on drills and conditioning. I know, because I sat through the practices. One kid on DS's team got a concussion. From riding his scooter. And, guess what? The coach benched that kid for a good long time. As for the medication: of course the parent has the ultimate say, but I think medication is more for the teachers...I also think you overestimate the role of a parent working with a child at night. My kids are in school 7 hours a day. They are awake after school for 3-4 hours max. The only way I can work with my kids more, is to sit with them in school. That's not really acceptable. The problem is that the playing field is no longer even. It's definitely tipped more towards girls. I'd like to know what shifts women have been asked to navigate? The only shift I know of now, is that unless you are upper middle class/wealthy, being a SAHM is really not acceptable. We have kids of both genders. We raise them knowing that gender does not define their lot in life. That both sexes are equally capable of doing what ever they wish. That's what I wish people would focus on. That's what DH and I model to the best of our ability.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 18, 2014 18:50:30 GMT -5
There are many but its an evolution. Women are supposed to dress feminine yet business-like in many work-places. So far there hasn't been too much of the equivalent on the male side. Men often get dissed for acting like women. Women will be told they aren't acting female enough and then in other situations they need to act more like a man.
For now, the male path is still considered the gold standard and currently the woman's role is considered more flexible. I am not sure where that happy medium is, but I do hope we get there. I remember only being able to take shop once in summer school I think in 7th grade. Hopefully there is more freedom in what to study based on your desires not gender.
I'll believe the playing field is tipped to girls when all the higher earning jobs are mostly populated by women. Until then, appearances can be deceiving if you focus on any one step or behavior. The pill thing bugs me, but its not my rodeo at this time, and just part of the we have pills for that way of looking at behavior.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 19:02:57 GMT -5
I see this from a couple of vantage points. All too often in my aging church we see women left alone when hubby dies and they have never written a check in their lives. And we see men left alone when wifey dies and they have never fixed a meal. Both situations are terribly sad and pose a huge problem for their family and friends.
I am sometimes chided by my "friends" for not treating DH as they think I should because we choose to share household chores and cooking. I'm getting a mixed message that DH is a manly king and DH is too stupid to read a recipe or punch buttons on a washing machine. Well, which is it? I think both men and women have a vast array of capabilities, most of which they will never know until they try.
When we finally stop assigning proclivities or abilities via the penis/vagina equation, our society will start making real progress.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 18, 2014 19:16:36 GMT -5
... I'll believe the playing field is tipped to girls when all the higher earning jobs are mostly populated by women. ... Which playing field are we talking about? I will believe some of the other fields that need to be tipped are life expectancy, deaths by suicide, and incarceration rates.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2014 19:17:22 GMT -5
I'll believe the playing field is level when women have to register for the draft.
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achelois
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Post by achelois on Jul 18, 2014 19:39:19 GMT -5
... I'll believe the playing field is tipped to girls when all the higher earning jobs are mostly populated by women. ... Which playing field are we talking about? I will believe some of the other fields that need to be tipped are life expectancy, deaths by suicide, and incarceration rates. Men engage in riskier behaviors and commit more crimes, especially violent crimes. Get guys to stop that stuff and two of those problems are solved. Why they commit more suicide, I don't know. Don't say more stress, either. It isn't true.
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achelois
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Post by achelois on Jul 18, 2014 19:40:56 GMT -5
I'll believe the playing field is level when women have to register for the draft. Women have been trying to get into all military fields. The ones blocking that are men. Talk to them. I personally believe everyone, male and females should do two years of service after high school.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Jul 18, 2014 19:46:24 GMT -5
I think most high schoolers are too out of shape to qualify for the military anymore but I agree women should participate in the draft.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 18, 2014 19:50:29 GMT -5
... I'll believe the playing field is tipped to girls when all the higher earning jobs are mostly populated by women. ... Which playing field are we talking about? I will believe some of the other fields that need to be tipped are life expectancy, deaths by suicide, and incarceration rates. I think some of that life expectancy normalization will happen when women get more access to high-paying high stress jobs and also more physical male traditional jobs. I'd like to see suicide and incarceration rates just drop in general. I think some male suicides happen when they fail to earn what they plan to, get laid off, or lose lots of money. In those instances, many women don't suicide because they feel they need to make it through for their kids.
Perhaps more men kill themselves than women, I don't even know. When it comes to murder things are still unequal as well, and I'd rather drop the men murdering women rate and rates in general than up the women murdering men rate.
I don't read on it much anymore, but I own a copy of 'Why Men are the way they are' and other signature tomes. I know gender typing hurts both genders, just in different ways. Just a few thoughts.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 19:50:50 GMT -5
I find more often than not, that men today are white-collar without useful 'fix it' skills. I have medium level of fix-it skills, so I am really disappointed when I find a lot of guys don't know how to fix anything. It is one thing if you choose not to fix things and hire someone else to do it, but a total lack of understanding of how to replace a faucet bothers me.
Is a man a real man if he does not know at least 25 uses for duct tape?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 19:51:45 GMT -5
Male suicide rates also have to be influenced by suicide rates among soldiers.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Jul 18, 2014 19:51:57 GMT -5
The guys I know in real life are all doing just fine. They are hard working and productive. Most of them are a bit dirtier than women and track all kinds of mud and grass into our house, but other than that they are just fine. I think men may just be getting a bad rap in the media, or possibly the internet is exposing us to larger populations and we see more of the slackers online. In my video game community about a third of the people I know are jobless and somehow being supported by family members or social programs. DH and I discuss this sometimes and try to figure out how some of them survive when they are online playing 12 hours a day. A lot of the jobless ones are in Europe and we aren't familiar with the social programs there, but some are in the US and have a spouse or partner that supports them.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 18, 2014 19:56:44 GMT -5
I find more often than not, that men today are white-collar without useful 'fix it' skills. I have medium level of fix-it skills, so I am really disappointing when I find a lot of guys don't know how to fix anything. It is one thing if you choose not to fix things and hire someone else to do it, but a total lack of understanding of how to replace a faucet bothers me. Is a man a real man if he does not know at least 25 uses for duct tape? Yes.
Its great if men and women learn how to fix things but if they don't have the aptitude I don't think it should be a slam on their gender anymore than say cooking ability.
I have minimal understanding of how to replace a faucet and I'm OK with that.
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achelois
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Post by achelois on Jul 18, 2014 20:11:23 GMT -5
I wish there would be more emphasis on teaching women, as they are growing up, to fix things.
For duct tape use, I suggest reviewing the great Canadian tv show: The Red Green Show. It will cover everything you need to know.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2014 22:16:24 GMT -5
Is a woman a real woman if she can't cook an amazing five course meal and put on a condom with her mouth?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 22:49:41 GMT -5
Deleted- unclear mush o' thoughts
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 18, 2014 23:11:59 GMT -5
... Why they commit more suicide, I don't know. Don't say more stress, either. It isn't true. It isn't?
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jul 19, 2014 0:03:03 GMT -5
Is a woman a real woman if she can't cook an amazing five course meal and put on a condom with her mouth? Are you telling me i'm a male? And I find that out after "only" 62 years but all joking aside -> xH had his faults as a husband ( mine might be that I didn't realize my gender ? ), but he was and is a good father, so all in all I have few/ less than I could have complaints.
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quince
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Post by quince on Jul 19, 2014 0:09:00 GMT -5
Men are fine. Women are fine. People are fine.
Individual people suck, sometimes, and sometimes they shine. I certainly don't think anything is wrong across the board with any gender.
I do think that what the way that some people have separate expectations of the genders (aside from childbirth and nursing) sucks, but I don't think that's due to any deficiency in either gender. Things are shifting quickly nowadays, which means that societal expectations are all over the place.
I'm OK with the men in my life, and they're OK with the women in theirs.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jul 19, 2014 7:10:23 GMT -5
Depends what your definition of violent is. I know two boys that play football in HS. Believe it or not, most of their time in sports is spent doing strength training. DS did tackle last year..They don't teach the kids to pound the sh*t out of each other. Even at the 4th grade level, in a 2 hour practice, DS practiced plays for about 15 minutes, and maybe there was actual contact for 5 minutes. The rest of the time was spent on drills and conditioning. I know, because I sat through the practices. One kid on DS's team got a concussion. From riding his scooter. And, guess what? The coach benched that kid for a good long time. As for the medication: of course the parent has the ultimate say, but I think medication is more for the teachers...I also think you overestimate the role of a parent working with a child at night. My kids are in school 7 hours a day. They are awake after school for 3-4 hours max. The only way I can work with my kids more, is to sit with them in school. That's not really acceptable. The problem is that the playing field is no longer even. It's definitely tipped more towards girls. I'd like to know what shifts women have been asked to navigate? The only shift I know of now, is that unless you are upper middle class/wealthy, being a SAHM is really not acceptable. We have kids of both genders. We raise them knowing that gender does not define their lot in life. That both sexes are equally capable of doing what ever they wish. That's what I wish people would focus on. That's what DH and I model to the best of our ability. As with most folks I base my perception of reality on what I've observed around me. My nephew played football in HS and college. In HS he was tackled so hard one time that he had a spiral fracture of his lower leg bone, needed surgery and 5 pins. He had two teammates that had broken arms and a few that had concussions that same year. He was concussed once in HS also. Yes, the coach was very good about benching the guys, so much so that the nephew and other players often had to play other positions to cover for benched players. It was my SIL commenting about this that highlighted the number of HS football injuries to me. In college his arm received a hairline fracture from another tackle. After he was concussed his sophomore year he finally decided football was too rough and he didn't want to risk time off from school to recover. He's about 6'3" and in top physical shape so it's not like he was one of the smallest guys on the team. We went to several of his HS games and I was shocked at how brutal some of the hits were. I agree with you that each individual should be free to achieve their own potential, regardless of gender. I think it's a good thing we are shifting away from this as a society as my own family has benefited from such very much.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 19, 2014 7:33:12 GMT -5
I'll believe the playing field is level when women have to register for the draft. Do men still have to register for the draft? No guy I know that didnt serve did.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 7:38:51 GMT -5
I'll believe the playing field is level when women have to register for the draft. Do men still have to register for the draft? No guy I know that didnt serve did. yes. men have to register with selective service on their 18th birthday. did your son not register?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 19, 2014 7:53:03 GMT -5
No, and neither did DF or my ex. Weird. But they just missed Vietnam and DS and his friends never have.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jul 19, 2014 8:03:17 GMT -5
... Why they commit more suicide, I don't know. Don't say more stress, either. It isn't true. It isn't? So are you saying men have more stress, or men just handle their stress poorly, which leads to a higher divorce rate?
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Jul 19, 2014 8:07:07 GMT -5
Deleted- unclear mush o' thoughts I'm stealing this. Please forgive me for not giving you credit when I use it here. I may need to use it soon.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 8:20:12 GMT -5
No, and neither did DF or my ex. Weird. But they just missed Vietnam and DS and his friends never have. I don't understand how people don't know that they have to register for selective service - especially since they send you a reminder.
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