Apple
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Post by Apple on Aug 5, 2014 14:18:35 GMT -5
The previous supervisor left Phoenix alone so there is no way for her to know if Phoenix was in fact following the rules. This one is paying attention and guess what? she found something. If it was a made up reason, I highly doubt HR would let it get this far. Not true. When someone makes something up and takes it "up higher", they do an investigation. This is the point it Phoenix is dealing with right now. If it turns out she made it up and the investigation shows that, she'll be the one in trouble. If the investigation doesn't find anything, but doesn't believe there was harmful intent on her part, things will quiet down. If the investigation finds something and believes it was not severe enough or accepts Phoenix's explanation, there will be some documentation and Phoenix will likely go on probation. If the investigation finds something severe, and/or believes Phoenix is to blame, is incompetent, etc, they may fire him or they may move him to a different position. But, the point is, investigations can be started just because someone is mad at someone else and makes something up. If Phoenix is part of a Union, I would have the union get involved.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 14:26:55 GMT -5
Do you think she would risk just for a "made up" reason? Besides Phoenix already said he didn't fully follow procedure. Also, she had told him she noticed a pattern prior to this incident of not doing what he's been asked to do (the first incident).
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Aug 5, 2014 14:28:45 GMT -5
Not true. When someone makes something up and takes it "up higher", they do an investigation. This is the point it Phoenix is dealing with right now. If it turns out she made it up and the investigation shows that, she'll be the one in trouble. If the investigation doesn't find anything, but doesn't believe there was harmful intent on her part, things will quiet down. If the investigation finds something and believes it was not severe enough or accepts Phoenix's explanation, there will be some documentation and Phoenix will likely go on probation. If the investigation finds something severe, and/or believes Phoenix is to blame, is incompetent, etc, they may fire him or they may move him to a different position.
However, the ONLY way Phoenix will benefit out of this is if the investigation turns up that his boss is doing this maliciously and the investigation shows nothing. That way, they could possibly remove her.
In all the other circumstances, Phoenix is going to have to deal with this woman in the future and it's not going to make for a pleasant working environment. She's going to resent him and make his life miserable. So even if Phoenix wins, he loses.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Aug 5, 2014 14:32:01 GMT -5
Phoenix didn't really write the details on what she said he didn't do "by the book". That will matter too. If it's anything like where I work, there are some very definite Standard Operation Procedures that have to be followed step-by-step. There are other procedures that may start with "check voltage at this terminal". Well, if you already know that circuit has one fuse, and you can see that the power light is on, or something is operating half way through the circuit, you don't need to check for voltage at that terminal. With experience, you already KNOW that voltage is fine (because if it wasn't, it couldn't work). Now, someone with no experience may look at the book and insist it has to be checked, no matter what. However, a REASONALBLE person with reasonable electrical knowledge could listen for 15 seconds and understand why, with previous knowledge, you would skip that step. And skipping that step, though part of "procedure" would be found to be no big deal.
What we don't know is if the skipped step was really no big deal, or if it's like one of those "SOP"s and has to be followed step-by-step no matter what.
I've seen more management moved/removed/fired than I have regular employees (in federal service), so it could very well be in Phoenix's best interest to stay the course until he can find a new job.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Aug 5, 2014 14:32:37 GMT -5
Do you think she would risk just for a "made up" reason? Besides Phoenix already said he didn't fully follow procedure. Also, she had told him she noticed a pattern prior to this incident of not doing what he's been asked to do (the first incident). Unless this woman is manipulative and malicious (which is possible), then I suspect at least in her mind this is a good reason. From what I can gather based on the information shared to date, this ultimately seems to be a communication issue. The supervisor probably really believes there is a significant problem with the way things have been handled and that procedures must be followed to the letter. And she is now supervising a person doesn't believe procedures must be followed to the letter and that intepretation is involved and that there wasn't a significant problem with things have been handled.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Aug 5, 2014 14:38:46 GMT -5
It's hard to call it a "pattern" of not doing what he's been asked to do. If I was HR, I'd have a really hard time firing someone for not putting on the white board that they went to the bathroom.
The latest thing, maybe - on it's own depending on the exact circumstances.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 14:41:02 GMT -5
Do you think she would risk just for a "made up" reason? Besides Phoenix already said he didn't fully follow procedure. Also, she had told him she noticed a pattern prior to this incident of not doing what he's been asked to do (the first incident). the first incident was him not writing on the white board when he went to the bathroom - I hardly think that counts as 'not following procedure'. based on what he's written, it sounds like this woman has it out for him for some reason known only to her and is doing everything she can to get rid of him. companies don't like people in management positions who drive good employees away so it's possible that the investigation will turn up that she's just blowing smoke.
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 5, 2014 14:44:15 GMT -5
It's hard to call it a "pattern" of not doing what he's been asked to do
But to an outsider it will be a "pattern" of having troubles with your supervisors if she succeeds in getting him terminated.
And the thing is you never know why you didn't get an interview or a call back, they're not obligated to tell you. So he could be risking a lot by holding on and counting on he'll get another job before this really backfires.
I think she's taking this to extremes, but the fact she's taking it to extremes is alarming and makes me wonder how far she's going to escalate. She also apparently from what it sounds like needs permission to take it this far and she's been granted it. Whether it's legit or not she's being allowed to keep going by somebody.
Even if she does by some miracle get fired instead of Phoenix it might not be a good idea to stick around and hope the next supervisor will be better. He's gotten a glimpse behind the curtain and I don't know if I'd want to stick around to see what comes next.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 14:54:25 GMT -5
It's hard to call it a "pattern" of not doing what he's been asked to doBut to an outsider it will be a "pattern" of having troubles with your supervisors if she succeeds in getting him terminated. And the thing is you never know why you didn't get an interview or a call back, they're not obligated to tell you. So he could be risking a lot by holding on and counting on he'll get another job before this really backfires. I think she's taking this to extremes, but the fact she's taking it to extremes is alarming and makes me wonder how far she's going to escalate. She also apparently from what it sounds like needs permission to take it this far and she's been granted it. Whether it's legit or not she's being allowed to keep going by somebody. Even if she does by some miracle get fired instead of Phoenix it might not be a good idea to stick around and hope the next supervisor will be better. He's gotten a glimpse behind the curtain and I don't know if I'd want to stick around to see what comes next. I agree, I wouldn't want to stick around in this job, even if cleared, especially if the supervisor was staying....but I think he needs to have an offer in hand before leaving.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 15:00:45 GMT -5
"the first incident was him not writing on the white board when he went to the bathroom " You are trying to make it sound like this was the only issue. She asked him to move by a certain date, he decided on his own it wasnt important enough. Writing on the board wasn't about the bathroom breaks, it was about letting her know his whereabouts, which could be work related or he could be goofing off. Phoenix also said he doesnt (didnt) pay attention her other requests because he thought they were silly. I know people like to focus on the ridiculous stuff but i dont see asking him to let her know when he disappears is unreasonable.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Aug 5, 2014 15:03:02 GMT -5
"the first incident was him not writing on the white board when he went to the bathroom " You are trying to make it sound like this was the only issue. She asked him to move by a certain date, he decided on his own it wasnt important enough. Writing on the board wasn't about the bathroom breaks, it was about letting her know his whereabouts, which could be work related or he could be goofing off. Phoenix also said he doesnt (didnt) pay attention her other requests because he thought they were silly. I know people like to focus on the ridiculous stuff but i dont see asking him to let her know when he disappears is unreasonable. Yes but then she was upset that he hadn't read her mind and wrote down all instances away from desk for more than a couple of minutes. There's plenty of failure to communicate effectively on both sides.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 15:07:02 GMT -5
"the first incident was him not writing on the white board when he went to the bathroom " You are trying to make it sound like this was the only issue. She asked him to move by a certain date, he decided on his own it wasnt important enough. Writing on the board wasn't about the bathroom breaks, it was about letting her know his whereabouts, which could be work related or he could be goofing off. Phoenix also said he doesnt (didnt) pay attention her other requests because he thought they were silly. I know people like to focus on the ridiculous stuff but i dont see asking him to let her know when he disappears is unreasonable. Yes but then she was upset that he hadn't read her mind and wrote down all instances away from desk for more than a couple of minutes. There's plenty of failure to communicate effectively on both sides. the day my manager tells me to sign in and out on a white board every time I leave my office to go somewhere is the day I tell them to kiss my ass. if I'm going to be out for any length of time I leave a post it outside my office but for anything under half a day, I just do my thing.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Aug 5, 2014 15:11:54 GMT -5
Well, I personally wouldn't want to work at any job where I was expected to write on a white board when I was going to bathroom. That alone would make me check out the "kiss my ass" fund, start sending out resumes and cut back on expenses. She sounds extremely petty but there are always two sides to every story and we still only have one side. Drama has really laid it all out quite nicely. Whether or not she is in the wrong really doesn't make much of a difference in the big picture. He has to think about his future. The only reason to hire a lawyer and fight this IMO is if he wants to stay at this place and work the next 25 yrs. I doubt he wants that so just better to cut his losses and get the f**k out.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Aug 5, 2014 15:12:56 GMT -5
Yes but then she was upset that he hadn't read her mind and wrote down all instances away from desk for more than a couple of minutes. There's plenty of failure to communicate effectively on both sides. the day my manager tells me to sign in and out on a white board every time I leave my office to go somewhere is the day I tell them to kiss my ass. if I'm going to be out for any length of time I leave a post it outside my office but for anything under half a day, I just do my thing. And my impression is that is similar to what Phoenix was doing. The old system wasn't adequate for her. She half assed implemented a new system and then wrote him up for not following though on what she didn't tell him to do. It's a no win situation but as I said - there's plenty of lousy communication on both parties here.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 5, 2014 15:13:24 GMT -5
Yes but then she was upset that he hadn't read her mind and wrote down all instances away from desk for more than a couple of minutes. There's plenty of failure to communicate effectively on both sides.
True but the issue is which one is going to come out of this alive?
With my supervisor she's a PI she brings in $$$$ to the university, technicians are a dime a dozen. Even though I would have been right should I chose to fight it I wouldn't have come out of it unscathed.
Eventually she would have found a way to terminate me and since the research community is fairly small there would go my career.
Hopefully Phoenix has a job in hand before the rug gets pulled out from under him. If he doesn't, depending on how this whole background check thing pans out I'd strongly consider taking my chances quitting.
Each gun the supervisor is pulling out is getting bigger and the more this escalates the worse Phoenix is going to come out even if the ruling is in his favor. I can imagine this is probably generating quite a bit of water cooler talk. He won't come out smelling like a rose even if she ends p being the one getting canned.
I agree with almost unless he's planning on spending 25 years at this job he should start weighing now whether it's worth continuing to play her game/fight things or leave.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Aug 5, 2014 15:17:40 GMT -5
Well, I personally wouldn't want to work at any job where I was expected to write on a white board when I was going to bathroom. That alone would make me check out the "kiss my ass" fund, start sending out resumes and cut back on expenses. She sounds extremely petty but there are always two sides to every story and we still only have one side. Drama has really laid it all out quite nicely. Whether or not she is in the wrong really doesn't make much of a difference in the big picture. He has to think about his future. The only reason to hire a lawyer and fight this IMO is if he wants to stay at this place and work the next 25 yrs. I doubt he wants that so just better to cut his losses and get the f**k out. I think he should have a conversation with a lawyer to make sure that what she's doing is within standard boundaries for his area or for federal employees. I'm not saying sue the shit out of them, but make sure that someone's got his back regarding getting a sense of when to say enough is enough. Personally, I don't know if I'd do the same things that Phoenix is doing (other than job hunting and going on interviews) but he was doing what he could to contain this until the background check started.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Aug 5, 2014 15:19:41 GMT -5
Yes but then she was upset that he hadn't read her mind and wrote down all instances away from desk for more than a couple of minutes. There's plenty of failure to communicate effectively on both sides.
True but the issue is which one is going to come out of this alive?
With my supervisor she's a PI she brings in $$$$ to the university, technicians are a dime a dozen. Even though I would have been right should I chose to fight it I wouldn't have come out of it unscathed.
Eventually she would have found a way to terminate me and since the research community is fairly small there would go my career.
Hopefully Phoenix has a job in hand before the rug gets pulled out from under him. If he doesn't, depending on how this whole background check thing pans out I'd strongly consider taking my chances quitting.
Each gun the supervisor is pulling out is getting bigger and the more this escalates the worse Phoenix is going to come out even if the ruling is in his favor. I can imagine this is probably generating quite a bit of water cooler talk. He won't come out smelling like a rose even if she ends p being the one getting canned.
I agree with almost unless he's planning on spending 25 years at this job he should start weighing now whether it's worth continuing to play her game/fight things or leave. I don't think radiation specialists (or whatever Phoenix is) are a dime a dozen. Could be wrong on that though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 15:23:39 GMT -5
There are definitely 2 sides to every story. I don't imagine the bathroom and white board story being as ridiculous as it sounds. I highly doubt she said write it down even when you go to the bathroom. I am thinking it was more along the lines of he was supposed to write down when he would be working away from his office, he kept on ignoring and the time she happened to give him grief was coincidentally when he had used the restroom. Think of it this way. She knew nothing about his work habits and he kept on disappearing for most of the day without a word. We probably all had coworkers who did this to goof off. On top of this, he didnt follow a few quite simple tasks she asked of him.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 15:27:32 GMT -5
Also, she may be targeting him but this is his 2nd time having employer issues. I would definitely be looking at myself for why this is happening to me, especially if being fired from a federal job is as hard as singlemom says it is. There must be a reason employers are attempting to fire him. How come the same is not happening to another coworker? There may be something in his attitude that he doesnt realize or intend.
For something so hard/impossible to do, going through it twice shows a pattern right there.
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 5, 2014 15:31:13 GMT -5
I don't think radiation specialists (or whatever Phoenix is) are a dime a dozen.
From what Phoenix has said they aren't, but he's also said due to that the pool he's swimming in, especially for governmental procedures is pretty small. There is a risk that this could backfire in his face as word travels thru the grapevine.
Even if she's looney tunes this is an awful lot of work to be going thru, people are going to speculate. I'm assuming there is something no matter how small/petty if HR hasn't slapped her down yet. It's a lot of work to go thru an extensive background check, HR isn't going to approve one for poops and giggles. Something is providing her with evidence/fuel to keep going.
I can't imagine that all of this has gone unnoticed since it is getting to be such a production. He may end up screwed out of a government position regardless of what the outcome is.
Personally I'd go with Honey's suggestion and find a cushy hospital/university radiation safety officer position.
Phoenix doesn't seem to have much luck in government if you count the previous job, it might be time to look outside and see if he may have better luck finding a job that fits him better elsewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 15:37:22 GMT -5
"Yes but then she was upset that he hadn't read her mind and wrote down all instances away from desk for more than a couple of minutes. There's plenty of failure to communicate effectively on both sides. "
We don't know that. Maybe she was clear and phoenix interpreted the way he wanted or dismissed just like her other requests. Also, i remember a post about explaining things a different way to a coworker because of asbergers. Maybe he took clear instructions a different way because of that? If that is the case, you can't blame her for something she didnt know. Maybe he is better off disclosing his asbergers when he starts a new job and anything special that needs to happen with that, like written instructions or something.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Aug 5, 2014 15:37:43 GMT -5
Phoenix doesn't seem to have much luck in government if you count the previous job, it might be time to look outside and see if he may have better luck finding a job that fits him better elsewhere.
Exactly what I was thinking
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 15:43:31 GMT -5
"Exactly what I was thinking"
I agree with this but then I think if it is so much harder to get fired from a government job and he has managed to go through it twice (almost), then he has no chance in the private sector.
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 5, 2014 15:47:22 GMT -5
He definitely needs to meet with someone (a career coach?) to discuss things because you're right the only common denominator is Phoenix in both situations. He needs to do a lot of introspection and possibly personality/attitude adjustment so there is no chance of this happening a third time.
A third person could bring a fresh set of eyes and give him advice on how to be a "better" employee after these experiences. They could also help him figure out what types of jobs would be a better fit for him.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Aug 5, 2014 15:48:13 GMT -5
"Exactly what I was thinking" I agree with this but then I think if it is so much harder to get fired from a government job and he has managed to go through it twice (almost), then he has no chance in the private sector. Maybe - IDK - sometimes people just work better in a different atmosphere. There really could be something about the way government works that just doesn't mesh well with phoenix.
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 5, 2014 15:54:10 GMT -5
IDK - sometimes people just work better in a different atmosphere
I agree, part of my problem with my last job is I don't gel with Surgery Research. It's atmosphere is not one I was compatible with.
To be honest I could tell from day one it wasn't going to be a good fit but I told myself like a good YM-er that any job is better than no job. I shouldn't have let things get to the point they did.
Where I work now is MUCH better fit. My personality lines up very nicely with the college as a whole and my bosses in particular. That does go a long way towards creating a successful working relationship.
Which is why I suggest a lot of introspection on Phoenix's part because something's going on that keeps putting him in the line of fire. I'm hard pressed to believe it's solely due to both supervisors being nut bags and he's totally innocent.
I don't think he's deliberately doing anything wrong but something's rubbing supervisors in the government/military the wrong way bad enough that he's been up for termination twice. Only reason the first group didn't succeed is because he caught them on a paperwork technicality. There are no assurances the current supervisor won't succeed where they failed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 17:21:09 GMT -5
I work in a completely different environment than Phoenix, but I think one thing that's likely universal for government jobs are that there are a lot of rules and a SOP for everything. I think we probably have more rules than other federal jobs, but the impression I get from talking to other federal employees is that there are a lot of rules for procedures everywhere.
I didn't bat an eye about the whiteboard/restroom thing, because technically, at my workplace if you leave the area for any reason (including to go to the rest room) you're suppose to have the equivalent of a "hall pass" from your supervisor. It's not been enforced during my years there and a lot of employees don't even know it exists, but it is a real, official rule.
It's possible that Phoenix has a personality where he just won't do well working somewhere where there is a rule for every little thing and the rules are enforced. A lot of people wouldn't do well in that kind of environment.
Whether or not it's hard to get fired from a government job depends on what you do, at least where I work. There are a few things that are cause for immediate removal. Other things have to go through a series of disciplinary actions with removal being the final step. It's a long process and if you just keep doing what you've been doing and let them go through all those steps until they get to a removal, you basically gave your job away imo. But again, that's not necessarily true of all government agencies.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 8, 2014 0:21:18 GMT -5
Okay, a few things.
1. I really do think getting a lawyer is a waste of time until some adverse action happens. I'm not in denial, but I don't think any lawyers would take a case where nothing has happened. I'm not even sure what a lawyer could do right now except maybe provide advice. Besides, I don't want to antagonize the situation any more than it already is, at least not unless I'm sure I can gain something from it.
2. My understanding from talking with the interviewer is that they are not employed by my agency, but OPM, and do not share details of the investigation with anyone, including my supervisor. So what happened in my old job is only relevant insofar as it relates to passing the background investigation or not. All my employer is going to get is a "yes" or "no" response. I doubt they'll fail me for the background check based on a legal action that was overturned, and besides, I've been employed with the feds for almost 7 years, I doubt they'll suddenly decide I'm a security risk.
3. Maybe I will consider the wisdom of quitting vs. getting fired, but I think I still have time. Unless there's something major I'm not aware of, I think they'll follow the normal procedure of putting me on a PIP. Now, I'm not foolish enough to think I can really pass a PIP, I know the boss isn't going to be fair and unbiased, but I think I'll at least have enough time for the PIP to run it's course, which should be at least a few months. If I get to that point, where the PIP is running out and I haven't found anything, I'll certainly consider resigning before the hammer falls.
As far as the projected timeline goes, my detail isn't set to end until mid September. I am almost positive at that point they'll issue a PIP and possibly disciplinary action. I doubt they'll have sufficient cause to fire me, unless there's something major I'm not aware of. After that time, I'll have a certain amount of time to meet the objectives of the PIP, or face termination. I don't know how long exactly, but I think six months or so is common. So I figure I have at a minimum, six months to get another job from now.
Ultimately, the boss can't make the decision herself to fire me, that's going to lie with someone else. And I'm sure they'll at least want to talk to me to hear my side of things before they do that.
I'm just trying to keep a low profile, do tasks as they're assigned, and not make the situation worse until I can find another job.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 8, 2014 0:40:15 GMT -5
He definitely needs to meet with someone (a career coach?) to discuss things because you're right the only common denominator is Phoenix in both situations. He needs to do a lot of introspection and possibly personality/attitude adjustment so there is no chance of this happening a third time. A third person could bring a fresh set of eyes and give him advice on how to be a "better" employee after these experiences. They could also help him figure out what types of jobs would be a better fit for him. A good point.
I wouldn't know who to talk to, but some introspection is definitely called for to determine my part in things and to ensure it doesn't happen again. Believe me, that's something I worry about frequently. Even if I get out of this and into a new position, how can I really ensure it won't happen again? I won't always be able to run to a new agency every time.
On the other hand, to be fair, I don't think all of it was entirely my fault. I think I have gotten back luck in some regards to supervisors. It's not like my entire career has been marked by failure after failure. I've been employed for almost 7 years, and only really had problems for maybe a year or so of that. I've even gotten good performance ratings and cash awards on occasion.
I'm not trying to deflect blame or ignore the problems I may have, I can't always blame everyone else, but it takes two to tango and I don't think I'm entirely to blame.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 8, 2014 0:44:52 GMT -5
"Exactly what I was thinking" I agree with this but then I think if it is so much harder to get fired from a government job and he has managed to go through it twice (almost), then he has no chance in the private sector. Maybe - IDK - sometimes people just work better in a different atmosphere. There really could be something about the way government works that just doesn't mesh well with phoenix. An interesting concept. I just don't know what else to do though. Even if I wanted to consider working outside the government or in a different field, I wouldn't even know where to start. Once you're in and making the money, it's hard to start over.
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